Competition for 75-ton Heavy Bomber of 1943

Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

My dear Jemiba,


I know this aircraft before,but it was not the same,please see the report,there
is two different articles,one for a bomber from 1944,and the second for HP.80
bomber of 1946.
 

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Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

The so called 'Handley Page 70 ton' bomber was not related to
the HP-80. According to 'Handley Page aircraft since 1907' - Putnam, it was one of the tailless designs
resulting from the research done with the HP-75 . No illustrations.

p.s. Tony Buttler mentions a H.P 75 ton bomber in BSP Fighters and Bombers 1935-1950.
 
Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

Thank you my dear Lark.
 
Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

All the resources and documents mentioned in the pages of The Journal of Aeronautical History are part of the Royal National Aeronautical Society Historical Group's collections and can be accessed by request. Perhaps being a member of the society is required or a participation is required. Better call and ask (see below).

The role of the Historical Group is to provide a focus within the RAeS for the study, discussion and interpretation of aerospace history, and to contribute on behalf of the Society to wider activities in this field.

The Group holds several lectures a year at Hamilton Place and also contributed to the Spitfire Women Seminar to celebrate the 70th Anniversary of the Air Transport Auxiliary. The Group is represented on a Society Committee that awards Heritage Plaques to commemorate people, places or things of significance to the history of British aviation and members also serve on the Advisory Group for the National Aerospace Library.

This year saw the launch of the online The Journal of Aeronautical History for papers that are of high quality but are unsuitable for The Aeronautical Journal because their topics are historical rather than technical. By the end of 2011 five papers and the beginnings of a correspondence section were on the Society’s website.

The Group also arranges visits to museums and other sites of historical significance, and attempts to answer questions on historical matters put to the Society.

Group Chairman: Peter Elliott MRAeS
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Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

Thank you Stargazer for the Info,


but I tried to contact them as a member,but I couldn't.
 
Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

Did anyone ever contact The National Aerospace Library about this topic?

Based on the brief descriptions of this design that are available it sounds fascinating.
 
Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

JFC Fuller said:
Did anyone ever contact The National Aerospace Library about this topic?

Based on the brief descriptions of this design that are available it sounds fascinating.
Click to expand...


Hi JFC,


I tried but I failed.
 
Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

I've found the Hub to be very helpful when I've contacted them by e-mail to acertain whether they've information on a number of research projects that are dear to my heart. So if any of you want the contact details which I have, do please askl. I'll be happy to assist.
 
Hi,

in this contest,the main tenders were; Avro (two proposals),Bristol,Handley Page,
Shorts and Vickers.

A completely mystery,specially in Specification,and there was no more Info about them ?.
 
Hi,

we must confuse that there was two competitions,75-ton and 100-ton heavy bombers,
for second one,the tenders were; Avro,Bristol,Handley Page,Shorts and Vickers.

Some kind of anticipation,the Miles company had also its ideas.
 

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There was no official specification issued for these very large bombers and hence no formal tenders or competition. It appears that the Ministry was simply requesting industry to come forward with concepts, ideas and suggestions.
 
Schneiderman said:
There was no official specification issued for these very large bombers and hence no formal tenders or competition. It appears that the Ministry was simply requesting industry to come forward with concepts, ideas and suggestions.
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Thank you Schneiderman,

but how come there was no drawings to proposals except from Bristol and Vickers only ?.
 
I guess it is related to how much effort the company put into the work and whether they considered it of value or not. Its a bit like my comments on what constitutes a 'project' in the L.E.Baynes thread.
Then again who knows what is sitting in archives waiting to be found. I believe that there are a large number of HP drawings waiting to be sorted and catalogued, who knows what may be found there.
 
Schneiderman said:
I guess it is related to how much effort the company put into the work and whether they considered it of value or not. Its a bit like my comments on what constitutes a 'project' in the L.E.Baynes thread.
Then again who knows what is sitting in archives waiting to be found. I believe that there are a large number of HP drawings waiting to be sorted and catalogued, who knows what may be found there.
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And me too,but I think for all UK companies there was a many unknown drawings.
 
Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

lark said:
The so called 'Handley Page 70 ton' bomber was not related to
the HP-80. According to 'Handley Page aircraft since 1907' - Putnam, it was one of the tailless designs
resulting from the research done with the HP-75 . No illustrations.

p.s. Tony Buttler mentions a H.P 75 ton bomber in BSP Fighters and Bombers 1935-1950.
Click to expand...

It seems unlikely that the "70-ton bomber" could have "resulted" from research done with the H.P.75.
Indeed, the Manx flew in 1946, while the bomber project in question exists in documents as early as 1943.
It would seem there is a fairly recent book that should contain some illustrations of it:

Handley Page Proposals for a 70-Ton Bomber (1943): a Commentary.
A H Fraser-Mitchell. Published by the author. 2014. 25pp. Illustrated.
Compares the project design with the evolution of the Convair B-36 Peacemaker.
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I wonder whether this was ever actually published for sale as he died in 2014, maybe the draft document was donated to the RAeS. Harry Fraser-Mitchell was a member of the Handley-Page Association so may well have had access to original documents.
 
Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

Skyblazer said:
It seems unlikely that the "70-ton bomber" could have "resulted" from research done with the H.P.75.
Indeed, the Manx flew in 1946, while the bomber project in question exists in documents as early as 1943.
...
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Logical at first glance, but maybe the 70-ton bomber design actually resulted from research for the canard layout,
which was partially done (later) with the Manx ? The latter was much later, of course, but I think, that during war
times development of a new (at least still not used operationally) layouts probably hadn't the highest priority. And sometimes
proof-of-concept demonstrators, as the Manx nowadays probably would be called, actually emerged later, than the full
scale article!
 
The initial concept work for tailless/canard aircraft at HP pre-dates 1937 as that was the date at which they submitted their first patent application. Development work on the HP75, which was well advanced, stalled when chief designer Gustav Lachmann was interned on the outbreak of war. Taxiing trials commenced in early 1940 but you are correct in saying that priority for development and production was moved elsewhere on the instruction of the MAP. It is quite feasible that some concept design work on bomber derivatives while the HP75 sat in a hangar doing nothing.
 
Thank you my dears Skyblazer,Jemiba and Schneiderman,

and maybe it was related to this ;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,21381.msg316250.html#msg316250
 
Re: Handley Page 70-ton Bomber Project of 1944

hesham said:
My dear Jemiba,


I know this aircraft before,but it was not the same,please see the report,there
is two different articles,one for a bomber from 1944,and the second for HP.80
bomber of 1946.
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Hesham, do you have the document from the 1944 bomber available to download?
 
Hi Sheepster,

here is the PDF.
 

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The article from The Aeroplane on 25th Dec 1959 as requested by Skyblazer wayyyyyyyyyyy back in 2013
 

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Schneiderman said:
The article from The Aeroplane on 25th Dec 1959 as requested by Skyblazer wayyyyyyyyyyy back in 2013
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Amazing,thank you my dear Schneiderman.
 
"Ask and ye shall receive"

I got in touch with National Aerospace Library, and got them to scan and send the "Proposed 70 ton Bomber" document, and one of the reference documents from Handley Page - including Handley Page 3-view general arrangement diagrams!
Unfortunately the copyright requirements mean one signs a document stating that you will not pass these documents on to others, and as I want to not upset the guys at the Library, I can't post those 3-views - sorry.
For anyone with an interest in historical British aviation I wholeheartedly recommend joining the library.

The 70-ton "orthodox" aircraft is a smaller version of the later US B-36 pusher bomber, using information supplied by Consolidated through an HP liaison officer who was seconded to Consolidated during the war.
The piston canard aircraft is a bomber variant of the H.P.75 developed airliner - looking like an egg on a boomerang - with remotely controlled turrets.
The jet bomber was not illustrated, but as it was similar to the piston canard with dimensions recorded, it should be fairly simple to work out a fairly accurate approximation.
 
Sheepster said:
"Ask and ye shall receive"

I got in touch with National Aerospace Library, and got them to scan and send the "Proposed 70 ton Bomber" document, and one of the reference documents from Handley Page - including Handley Page 3-view general arrangement diagrams!
Unfortunately the copyright requirements mean one signs a document stating that you will not pass these documents on to others, and as I want to not upset the guys at the Library, I can't post those 3-views - sorry.
For anyone with an interest in historical British aviation I wholeheartedly recommend joining the library.

The 70-ton "orthodox" aircraft is a smaller version of the later US B-36 pusher bomber, using information supplied by Consolidated through an HP liaison officer who was seconded to Consolidated during the war.
The piston canard aircraft is a bomber variant of the H.P.75 developed airliner - looking like an egg on a boomerang - with remotely controlled turrets.
The jet bomber was not illustrated, but as it was similar to the piston canard with dimensions recorded, it should be fairly simple to work out a fairly accurate approximation.
Click to expand...

Trace the drawings and post them
 
Sheepster said:
"Ask and ye shall receive"

I got in touch with National Aerospace Library, and got them to scan and send the "Proposed 70 ton Bomber" document, and one of the reference documents from Handley Page - including Handley Page 3-view general arrangement diagrams!
Unfortunately the copyright requirements mean one signs a document stating that you will not pass these documents on to others, and as I want to not upset the guys at the Library, I can't post those 3-views - sorry.
For anyone with an interest in historical British aviation I wholeheartedly recommend joining the library.

The 70-ton "orthodox" aircraft is a smaller version of the later US B-36 pusher bomber, using information supplied by Consolidated through an HP liaison officer who was seconded to Consolidated during the war.
The piston canard aircraft is a bomber variant of the H.P.75 developed airliner - looking like an egg on a boomerang - with remotely controlled turrets.
The jet bomber was not illustrated, but as it was similar to the piston canard with dimensions recorded, it should be fairly simple to work out a fairly accurate approximation.
Click to expand...

Good news,and maybe something like this;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,21381.msg219341.html#msg219341
 
I'm way more interested in seeing the British take on a B-36, frankly.
 
Handley Page 70 bomber tail-less project, with a Halifax B.III to give a scale

jaXkC96.png


Length: 67ft
Wingspan: 155ft
 
That's great, many thanks.

I noticed the non-circular propeller arcs so corrected the distortion to match the given dimensions and rearranged it.

4 x Napier Sabre development
Wing loading 72 lb/sqft
Load, fuel + bomb 69000lb
Cuising speed 354 mph at 30,000 ft
 

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Where would the bombs be stored? Forward or act of the belly turret, or would they be stored in the wings. Judging by the length of the aircraft, Tallboy or Grand Slam could not be stored internally.
 
Schneiderman said:
That's great, many thanks.

I noticed the non-circular propeller arcs so corrected the distortion to match the given dimensions and rearranged it.
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Excellent job, but you may find that it is not that the prop discs are just distorted. The proportions of the fuselage in the nose-on view don't match the lateral view - the fuselage cross-section is not tall enough. I think the whole of the nose-on view needs to be stretched up, which would natural round-out the prop discs????
 
Yes, that seems to be an issue with the original drawings. The span and engine spacing match, top and front, but the fuselage width and canard span do not. I've tweaked the drawing a bit more and it does come out as 67ft x 155ft so the basics are correct.
 
This has been a most interesting find, as far I know the designs HP drew up for the 1943 Heavy Bomber have never been published before.

Its always frustrating when period 3-view images don't fully align, proof that even with trained draughtsmen mistakes sometimes happened.
 
Handley Page 70 ton bomber pusher project, with Halifax B.III to scale

nvU7F0f.png


Fuselage Length: 108ft
Wingspan: 169ft

The H.P. general arrangement plans don't extend all the way to the wingtips, so you'll need to extrapolate to knowing the wingspan.
 

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