Commission floats idea that Ireland purchase 12 to 24 fighter jets

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Irish Commission on the Defence Forces has come up with three proposals to bolster the armed forces, the most ambitious of which includes the purchase of 12 to 24 jet fighters. The cost of such an effort is almost quadruple of the current budget (including other capabilities as well). This would be quite a turnaround considering that currently Ireland is the most thrifty of EU countries when it comes to military spending, with only 0.27% of its GDP allocated to defence. Standing up a fighter force of course is no trivial matter; at least some of the training will most certainly have to happen abroad as well. It will be interesting to see whether this proposal goes anywhere.

www.irishexaminer.com

Government urged to purchase fighter jets to protect Irish airspace

A report says Ireland is ill-equipped to deal with increasing threats from Islamic and right-wing extremists and the activities of Russia and China
www.irishexaminer.com www.irishexaminer.com
 
Start putting that Tax Haven money to use...

If Ireland used the 2% of their GDP ($8 Billion) as a budget, that'd put them at parity with Sweden, Norway, Thailand, and Indonesia; quite the boost.
 
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Some nice Tranche 1 Typhoons available from a close neighbour, and the Qatari training system could be leveraged to get the planes easy for action more quickly.
 
Why would they do that when they can get someone else to do it? SImplist way of looking at it, the continued outlay would be more than they are willing to do more than think about.
 
Foo Fighter said:
Why would they do that when they can get someone else to do it? SImplist way of looking at it, the continued outlay would be more than they are willing to do more than think about.
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I think they want to be seen to carry their own weight in Europe.
 
Ambitious. There are many pitfalls to be had in building a fast jet force from the ground up. I'm platform agnostic but it would make a great deal of sense for the advanced training to be done at Valley. I don't think you could be any closer to home or have more representative meteorology!
 
There would need to be a huge investment in acquiring training and logistics outside of the Island of Ireland. Where it would be is anyone's guess but I would posit an eu nation, France possibly. Either way, not a quick procedure and liable to a change of rider during that process. SHOULD it happen which I doubt, going from handling prop driven to high performance gas turbine aircraft is not for the faint hearted which I believe this suggestion is. Wotsit waving in other words.
 
Foo Fighter said:
Where it would be is anyone's guess but I would posit an eu nation, France possibly.
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The Irish do a lot of training with the UK already, but the UK MFTS is struggling as it is. Reality is (apart from the fact it will never happen...) is training would need to be provided by whichever nation sold them the jets.

Infrastructure would be a huge issue however. Baldonnell is too small and would need significant infrastructure improvements (if they were possible). The most sensible choices would be Shannon or Knock airports. Both with decent sized runways, in Shannon's case there is a lot of aviation industry/infrastructure, for Knock there is a lot of spare space..even then it would cost a lot to set up. The list would be endless...radar coverage...munitions stockpiles, complex weapon maintenance, weapons bunkers, dispersals, ground handling equipment, simulator, crew accomodation and maintenance areas, Command and Control set-up.....it goes on and one...
 
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It sounds like they have enough other basic problems to solve first like getting enough manpower and retention as well as suitable facilities before they can think about equipment and all that boils down to the money.
The reports sounds more like a desperate plea for funding and some ideas how they could put the money to practical use.

Ireland isn't part of NATO and has been historically sparsely armed despite being a neutral nation. That leaves it vulnerable to some extent and quite rightly it can't assume that the UK or EU will be willing or able to cover its back at all times.
 
Hood said:
Ireland isn't part of NATO and has been historically sparsely armed despite being a neutral nation. That leaves it vulnerable to some extent and quite rightly it can't assume that the UK or EU will be willing or able to cover its back at all times.
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The UK will cover the Republic’s back at all times, as the Republic’s back is the UK’s back.
 
Sounds like the numbers must have changed from the initial review in late 2020/early 2021 (the Air Policing Policy Options report, attached).

That report discusses air policing capability on a spectrum, with eight (8) jet trainer (e.g., M346 Master) or light combat aircraft (e.g., FA-50) being in the preferred range. The only larger capability described would be what they call a full air defense capability, with 40 Gen 4 or Gen 5 aircraft, at nearly 10 times the price of the "Realistic" option with light combat aircraft. They price out the CAPEX for 8 FA-50 as ~192 million Euro, or ~20 million Euro per year in OPEX+CAPEX. There are some very questionable numbers in there, like a provision of only 150 flight hours per aircraft per year. With 2 pilots per aircraft, that's just 75 flight hours per pilot year, which is barely enough for safety, much less proficiency. And they assume pilots arrive trained (hiring ex-RAF pilots with dual UK-Irish citizenship?)

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Edit: Fixed the costing numbers.
 

Attachments

  • Ireland AIr Policing.pdf
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A nation that can't recruit its forces to full strength suddenly wants to upgrade to two-dozen frontline jet fighters? Yeah, I see all sorts of problems with achieving this.

Most of them are in the often-ignored space between the previous landing and the subsequent takeoff.
 
There has been a lot of realism from Irish politicians and media in relation to this commissions report and the 3 options set out.
It appears that “option 3” (procurement of actual air defence aircraft) is viewed at best as a potential very long term in the future option which may (likely?) never be selected, but which has been flagged to help inform wider realistic debate around defence priorities and spending.
It also has the secondary advantage of making the other options such as option 2 - a significantly scaled up and better equipped defence force, twice as expensive but still with no actual fighter aircraft - appear more reasonable/ palatable to a country highly wedded to it’s neutrality.
 
kaiserd said:
It also has the secondary advantage of making the other options such as option 2 - a significantly scaled up and better equipped defence force, twice as expensive but still with no actual fighter aircraft - appear more reasonable/ palatable to a country highly wedded to it’s neutrality.
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Yes this is my feeling too, making what looks expensive seem less expensive than the super platinum-plated option.
Both Option 1 or 2 look credible. Option 1 seems fine as a starting point assuming you aren't going to shoot a hijacked airliner down or try going toe-to-toe with Rooskie Bears.

starviking said:
The UK will cover the Republic’s back at all times, as the Republic’s back is the UK’s back.
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Unless the UK splits up of course...
Then they might go into pooling ex-RAF Typhoons with Scotland or something?
Pays to keep your options open in these crazy times.
 
TomS said:
nd they assume pilots arrive trained (hiring ex-RAF pilots with dual UK-Irish citizenship?)
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Lower pay with hgher housing costs and paid for healthcare....less flying, less deployments...not a hope.
 
timmymagic said:
TomS said:
nd they assume pilots arrive trained (hiring ex-RAF pilots with dual UK-Irish citizenship?)
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Lower pay with hgher housing costs and paid for healthcare....less flying, less deployments...not a hope.
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Might find some folks who are done with their RAF careers and wouldn't mind a less strenuous gig.

I'd also think about whether you could staff it partially on a reserve basis with pilots who also fly commercial airliners or some such. Lots of scheduling headaches there, though.
 
TomS said:
Might find some folks who are done with their RAF careers and wouldn't mind a less strenuous gig.
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They'd have to compete with the ME contracts. But any such procurement would be multi-year, they might want to draft in a couple of more senior pilots to set up the system, but they'd be time to train Irish pilots up. The problem would be keeping them long term...instead of being a flight academy for Ryanair....
 
Is this related to Vlad Putin naval saber rattling off their coast, recently ?
 
Archibald said:
Is this related to Vlad Putin naval saber rattling off their coast, recently ?
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It's not the first time. Ireland has had some Russian intrusions or near-intrusions into its airspace for quite a while. Some events in 2020 caught media attention, which is probably why the initial study was done.

www.irishtimes.com

What are Russian bombers doing in Irish airspace?

Moscow testing Irish-British air defence links and threatening State role as technology hub
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
 
timmymagic said:
TomS said:
Might find some folks who are done with their RAF careers and wouldn't mind a less strenuous gig.
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They'd have to compete with the ME contracts. But any such procurement would be multi-year, they might want to draft in a couple of more senior pilots to set up the system, but they'd be time to train Irish pilots up. The problem would be keeping them long term...instead of being a flight academy for Ryanair....
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Yeah, that seems a more likely route. I expect you could probably find a couple of mid-to-senior ex-RAF types who don't fancy flying in the Middle East and would like to stay closer to home (politics, weather, family, you name it).

I wonder if they could staff it at least partially on a reserve basis with pilots who fly for airlines and add on part-time duties for the Flying Corps. Scheduling would be a pain, though.
 
The real story is off a defence force (irrespective of its precise role and size) that has been seriously neglected since the threats related to the Northern Troubles greatly diminished.
Bad pay, conditions, housing, moral etc.
(As an Irish person living in Dublin I can’t really undersell how low that pay is in relation to what the rest of us in the wider economy get, versus rent/ house prices, more general cost of living, etc.)
Part of what appears to a genuine effort to try to start address this is figuring out what the Irish defence forces are for going forward. Right now they aren’t really fit for even minimum purposes (for example relative capacity hasn’t really kept up with other comparable countries forces available for peace keeping missions).
Hence this isn’t really about any near term likelihood of Irish interceptors shadowing Russian Bears but more around re-building a force to do more better with better equipment, capabilities and conditions/ retention that can be built on if required/ decided on.
 
muttly said:
What aircraft would be the best for them to buy in terms of cost and maintaining?
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For Option 2
New FA-50s from Korea
New M-346 from Korea
“New” L-39NG from Czechia (wild card)

For Option 3
Used Gripen C/D from Sweden (could be leased)
Gifted Tranche 1 Eurofighters from fellow EU nations…
 
#24 should give both UK and EU reasons to think of ways to help Ireland.
I think the UK and French militaries are both well placed to offer assistance in various ways and levels and may well already do so.
I hope Ireland can retain its very low level of military activity while improving the conditions of those who serve.
 
There are huge societal links between the U.K. and Ireland, the troubles do not really negate this. The free travel rules, lots of Irish have and do serve in the British forces, and a couple of years ago it became clear the U.K. would police Irish airspace, at their request. The only place the Irish will shop, we’re this to actually happen, would be the U.K.

Best aircraft, would be a dozen ex raf hawks, with Aden and sidewinder. Support would be available locally, and they could grab a few people from valley, literally 2 hours away on the fast ferry, to look after them.

Anything beyond this, would be very difficult for Ireland, the costs, the utilisation, etc would be a real challenge. You have to recognise that Dublin is the size of a county town, or very small city, in the U.K.
 
Fluff said:
Best aircraft, would be a dozen ex raf hawks, with Aden and sidewinder. Support would be available locally, and they could grab a few people from valley, literally 2 hours away on the fast ferry, to look after them.
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I advocated training at Valley upthread but the Hawk as the interceptor is a bad idea IMO. The T.1s are well-used and I don't think I've seen one with an Aden pod since the 90s. I'm not sure AIM-9 is even in the inventory but I am sure the Hawk will not exactly scintillate against a Tu-95 in a tail-chase. The Bear is deceptively fast and while it won't just extend away quickly, it will sustain max-chat for longer than is wise for the pursuing Hawk. The Hawk interceptor concept was predicated on the targets being very much inbound and having a Tonka to share the load! Effectively they were CIWS for the F.3.

I think a better investment for Ireland, if they must buy something shiny grey at all, would be some OPVs with some AShMs to protect their sea-going trade, fisheries etc. and leave their AD to Norway, the UK and France (in no particular order).
 
There are various other airspace violators that do not require a fully fledged interceptor but need to be investigated and escorted such as civil aircraft that have strayed.
 
Yet they have managed without this critical capability for the entirety of my lifetime! I strongly suspect a government department needed busywork.

ETA: The selection criteria of an interceptor cannot be built around a ho-hum case of oh where is this Pilatus off to, it has to account for a reasonable worst case which in this instance is something in the order of a non-cooperative Tu-160 2-ship or a barber-poling 767. The requisite kinetics for a successful intercept at short notice over many thousands of square kilometres means supersonic performance. That pushes this whole affair into financial non-viability for Ireland IMO but anything subsonic is a simple waste of limited public funds.

Not to mention RAF Tiffies cover more than half the compass anyway.
 
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Fluff said:
There are huge societal links between the U.K. and Ireland, the troubles do not really negate this. The free travel rules, lots of Irish have and do serve in the British forces, and a couple of years ago it became clear the U.K. would police Irish airspace, at their request. The only place the Irish will shop, we’re this to actually happen, would be the U.K.
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And we also have virtual shared citizenship: a British citizen in the Republic has full voting rights in elections, and Irish citizens resident in the UK have full citizenship rights.
 
Adding 24 fighters would double the inventory of the Irish Air Corps. ... at the most expensive corner of the envelope.

We wonder if this is more of a strategic initiative to keep Ireland "pulling its weight" within NATO and United Nations Peacekeeping operations ... similar to the way Canada bought Leopard 1 tanks during the late 1970s.
 
riggerrob said:
Adding 24 fighters would double the inventory of the Irish Air Corps. ... at the most expensive corner of the envelope.

We wonder if this is more of a strategic initiative to keep Ireland "pulling its weight" within NATO and United Nations Peacekeeping operations ... similar to the way Canada bought Leopard 1 tanks during the late 1970s.
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Ireland is not a NATO member. And there really are no UN peacekeeping missions where fighters come into play.
 
Ireland enjoys being effectively surrounded by NATO members while preserving its political neutrality.
Like Austria it is in the EU but Austria is closer to Serbia and Russia, so has to have small but capable armed forces.
Brexit and the loons in charge of the UK at the moment may have persuaded Dublin to look elsewhere for help. France seems the obvious choice.
Macron could afford to give Ireland Mirage 2000s .
 
uk 75 said:
Macron could afford to give Ireland Mirage 2000s
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Why not a Triomphant while they are at it? I think you are grossly over-estimating French largesse and frankly interest too. No-one is going to pay for Irish QRA, including the Irish. How many hospital beds = 1 spare turbofan? How many subsidized community transport links = running an OCU in your favoured host country? That community centre or an AAM acquisition round?

Actualising this rather than talking about it would require a sea-change in Irish policy even with "free" interceptors.
 
I was being too flippant.

I agree that Ireland rightly has other priorities than airspace defence.

But if it retains military or policing forces these should have clear roles, the right equipment and look after the people who serve. As should any country.
 

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