China Projecting Power in South and East China Seas

[Rickshaw]

You really do seem to enjoy antagonising people, don't you?

That would be China wouldn't it?

Can't Chine be antagonised in your world view?

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://news.yahoo.com/philippine-plane-warned-chinese-navy-disputed-sea-105250004.html

 

[ouroboros]

So chinese coop work with Rosatom for nuclear power barges seems to have now yielded this

http://en.cgnpc.com.cn/n1017164/n1017298/index.html

Guess the tech coop worked out well for the chinese, less so for the russians...


Though a real offshore powerplant will likely be a spar buoy deign or some sort of semisub for a codependent oil rig. But for those artificial islands, with harbors, this is a perfect fit. Plenty of power for the local radar installation, and can claim civil usage via water and electrical production, if a token fish processing plant is in the harbor. Plus nobody would risk bombing the place.

Also, leased power barges to african nations china is getting cuddly with, like Nigeria. The plus side being the threat of repossession for late lease payments.

 

[sferrin]

"The Chinese military has deployed an advanced surface-to-air missile system to one of its contested islands in the South China Sea according to civilian satellite imagery exclusively obtained by Fox News, more evidence that China is increasingly "militarizing" its islands in the South China Sea and ramping up tensions in the region.

The imagery from ImageSat International (ISI) shows two batteries of eight surface-to-air missile launchers as well as a radar system on Woody Island, part of the Paracel Island chain in the South China Sea.

It is the same island chain where a U.S. Navy destroyer sailed close to another contested island a few weeks ago. China at the time vowed “consequences” for the action.

Woody Island is also claimed by the Republic of China (Taiwan) and by Vietnam."

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/02/16/exclusive-china-sends-surface-to-air-missiles-to-contested-island-in-provocative-move.html?intcmp=hpbt2

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

 

[Orionblamblam]

"Possession" is defined by what you can, and choose to, keep.

On the one hand, this might be seen as bad. On the other hand, China would have no cause for complaint if the USAF landed on the moon and planted defensive batteries.

 

[sferrin]

"Possession" is defined by what you can, and choose to, keep.

On the one hand, this might be seen as bad. On the other hand, China would have no cause for complaint if the USAF landed on the moon and planted defensive batteries.

Should have rolled up with some LCACs, CH-53s, and AAVs as soon as there was enough dirt to land on, thanked them for creating an "international stop over", and set up a BBQ (as in with hot wings). At all seven sites. Too late now though.

 

[Steve Pace]

china is more than pricey dishes - look out. BTW: doesn't the U.S. owe boo-coo-bucks to China? -SP

 

[sferrin]

china is more than pricey dishes - look out. BTW: doesn't the U.S. owe boo-coo-bucks to China? -SP

I guess this is what a "Peaceful Rise" looks like - surrounding everybody with weapons and then telling them their land is yours now.

 

[Arian]

china is more than pricey dishes - look out. BTW: doesn't the U.S. owe boo-coo-bucks to China? -SP

The same way that the US and other Asian countries own most of anything of value in China, too. Things go both ways, and ain't so simple.

 

[Steve Pace]

china is more than pricey dishes - look out. BTW: doesn't the U.S. owe boo-coo-bucks to China? -SP

I guess this is what a "Peaceful Rise" looks like - surrounding everybody with weapons and then telling them their land is yours now.

I say again - look out! Do not underestimate the country that "wants to rise again." (I, personally, am more afraid of China than any other country on this planet) Putin sucks. -SP

 

[sferrin]

china is more than pricey dishes - look out. BTW: doesn't the U.S. owe boo-coo-bucks to China? -SP

I guess this is what a "Peaceful Rise" looks like - surrounding everybody with weapons and then telling them their land is yours now.

I say again - look out! Do not underestimate the country that "wants to rise again." (I, personally, am more afraid of China than any other country on this planet) Putin sucks. -SP

Oh, I'm ANYTHING but underestimating them. From the time they bought their "casino" I knew we'd eventually end up here (and it's far from over).

 

[Grey Havoc]

Oh, I'm ANYTHING but underestimating them. From the time they bought their "casino" I knew we'd eventually end up here (and it's far from over).

All too true.

 

[Grey Havoc]

To recap the whole sorry saga for newer members of the forum:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/30/world/asia/what-china-has-been-building-in-the-south-china-sea.html

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20822.0.html

 

[VH]

Before this is over China may have to disgorge those islands due to trouble at home:

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1911987/xi-jinpings-ambitious-power-play?page=all

 

[Gridlock]

china is more than pricey dishes - look out. BTW: doesn't the U.S. owe boo-coo-bucks to China? -SP

I guess this is what a "Peaceful Rise" looks like - surrounding everybody with weapons and then telling them their land is yours now.

It always surprises me when Americans take the moral high ground on this sort of thing.....

(Assuming you're American)

 

[fredymac]

china is more than pricey dishes - look out. BTW: doesn't the U.S. owe boo-coo-bucks to China? -SP

I guess this is what a "Peaceful Rise" looks like - surrounding everybody with weapons and then telling them their land is yours now.

It always surprises me when Americans take the moral high ground on this sort of thing.....

(Assuming you're American)

Not "taken". Ceded by actions of others. In this specific case, the use of power to seize territory geographically attached to other countries as even a cursory glance at the map would show. Imagine the Gulf Of Mexico drawn up to match what China is attempting to do in the South China Sea. Or perhaps declaring the whole of the Caribbean Sea to be US waters. Moreover, the US is also responding to requests by the affected countries (including those who simply transit through these waters). The use of military power to seize and annex territory has been a historic cause of war all the way up to WWII (including "lebensraum"). Since then, most people have disavowed this tactic.

 

[sferrin]

china is more than pricey dishes - look out. BTW: doesn't the U.S. owe boo-coo-bucks to China? -SP

I guess this is what a "Peaceful Rise" looks like - surrounding everybody with weapons and then telling them their land is yours now.

It always surprises me when Americans take the moral high ground on this sort of thing.....

(Assuming you're American)

You mean because of all the islands the US has built and the armed up, or all the territory it's been taking the last couple years? Do tell.

 

[kaiserbill]

Diego Garcia seems to have been a prototype of sorts.

Is this the latest reincarnation of "The usual suspects bash China" thread that Paul has to keep locking?
He must find it very tedious.

 

[sferrin]

Diego Garcia seems to have been a prototype of sorts.

Diego Garcia was taken from other claimants?

Is this the latest reincarnation of "The usual suspects bash China" thread that Paul has to keep locking?
He must find it very tedious.

I don't think anybody is "bashing" China. They're simply pointing out what they're doing and that it's against the law. If you consider that "bashing". . .well, I can't help you. I wasn't aware that pointing out the actions of a country was verboten.

 

[Arjen]

Diego Garcia was taken from other claimants?

Diego Garcia was bought by the UK from Mauritius, then handed over to the USA which constructed its airbase there. After the UK depopulating Diego Garcia, that is, with the UK paying compensation to some of the deported. Few of the 1000-2000 inhabitants left willingly. It's a grubby part of history.

 

[sferrin]

Diego Garcia was taken from other claimants?

Diego Garcia was bought by the UK from Mauritius, then handed over to the USA which constructed its airbase there. After the UK depopulating Diego Garcia, that is, with the UK paying compensation to some of the deported. Few of the 1000-2000 inhabitants left willingly. It's a grubby part of history.

Okay, so not really comparable then. While it sucks for those displaced (makes me think of people getting booted out of their houses to build a mall via "eminent domain") it was all above board.

 

[TomS]

Oh, it was anything but "aboveboard" The British government deliberately understated the number of permanent residents on the Chagoss Islands, systematically destroyed the economy of the islands to encourage people to leave, then lied to residents and their families about why people who left the island were unable to return. In the end, they deported people who had lived on the islands for their whole lives to places they didn't know and where they faced severe discrimination. They eventually paid some compensation, but it wasn't much in the end and it was years late. The whole affair was pretty ugly, and continues to be so.

The wiki page makes for some interesting (depressing) reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulation_of_Chagossians_from_the_Chagos_Archipelago

 

[sferrin]

Oh, it was anything but "aboveboard" The British government deliberately understated the number of permanent residents on the Chagoss Islands, systematically destroyed the economy of the islands to encourage people to leave, then lied to residents and their families about why people who left the island were unable to return. In the end, they deported people who had lived on the islands for their whole lives to places they didn't know and where they faced severe discrimination. They eventually paid some compensation, but it wasn't much in the end and it was years late. The whole affair was pretty ugly, and continues to be so.

The wiki page makes for some interesting (depressing) reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulation_of_Chagossians_from_the_Chagos_Archipelago

As harsh as it is though Diego Garcia was land recognized as belonging to the UK no?

 

[kaiserbill]

You mean because of all the islands the US has built and the armed up, [size=12pt]or[/size] all the territory it's been taking the last couple years? Do tell.

That's what you wrote, to which I responded:

Diego Garcia seems to have been a prototype of sorts.

So yes, directly comparable before the "or" that you inserted into your sentence.
The design, concepts, and usage of the islands closely mirror Diego Garcia.
May I humbly suggest if you don't like my answer, or are actively looking to find offence, to rather look at the structure and manner of construction of your sentences first? I'm talented, but I'm no mind reader.

May I humbly ask if it's possible to exercise some personal self-restraint with the comments after the newsworthy article? That just inflames the topic, and reduces the superiority of this site, with it's international participation, over the plethora of mediocre ones out there that are often simply mud-slinging arenas. It also tends to make VH come out with more dire predictions of China's imminent collapse.

 

[kaiserbill]

Oh, it was anything but "aboveboard" The British government deliberately understated the number of permanent residents on the Chagoss Islands, systematically destroyed the economy of the islands to encourage people to leave, then lied to residents and their families about why people who left the island were unable to return. In the end, they deported people who had lived on the islands for their whole lives to places they didn't know and where they faced severe discrimination. They eventually paid some compensation, but it wasn't much in the end and it was years late. The whole affair was pretty ugly, and continues to be so.

The wiki page makes for some interesting (depressing) reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depopulation_of_Chagossians_from_the_Chagos_Archipelago

Indeed. And declassified cables released show full well that somersaults and shenanigans were perfomed with the depopulation knowing it was illegal and would spell trouble at the UN. Of course, it helped that Sir Bruce Greatbatch airily described the islanders as "unsophisticated" and "untrainable", before ordering the gassing of over a thousand of the islanders pets such as dogs in front of the owners as an attempt to thin out the numbers before the physical forced removal happened.
Apparently 2 seperate US Congessional Committees tried to investigate the matter, but were told "the entire subject of Diego Garcia is classified".

As you say, a very ugly and depressing affair.

 

[sferrin]

Regardless of the ethics of the event it was UK territory and recognized so. These new "islands" are not Chinese territory nor recognized as such. So apples / oranges.

 

[TomS]

As harsh as it is though Diego Garcia was land recognized as belonging to the UK no?

There's a case to be made that if the British had not deliberately misrepresented the status of the islands' population, they would have been entitled to independence.

 

[fredymac]

2 points. Diego Garcia is British. US bases are there as guests and can be ordered out at the pleasure of the British government. Second, Diego Garcia is not being used as a pretext to claim surrounding waters. As long as we are going to go down this road: everybody everywhere is occupying land they did not originally own. Europe for example was inhabited by non Indo-Europeans before any Celts or Germans or Slavs got there. Perhaps, Europe properly belongs to the Basques and everyone else should leave. Of course, we could limit ourselves to post WWII. Diego Garcia was originally claimed by the Portuguese in the 16th century and went through the predictable changes of ownership during the age of empire.

 

[Arjen]

As often, not technically breaking the law of the time didn't mean justice was served. International law has changed since then. From the link provided by TomS in reply #18:

According to Article 7(d) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court which established the International Criminal Court (ICC), "deportation or forcible transfer of population" constitutes a crime against humanity if it is "committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack". The ICC is not retroactive: alleged crimes committed before 1 July 2002 cannot be judged by the ICC.

 

[sferrin]

As often, not technically breaking the law of the time didn't mean justice was served. International law has changed since then. From the link provided by TomS in reply #18:

According to Article 7(d) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court which established the International Criminal Court (ICC), "deportation or forcible transfer of population" constitutes a crime against humanity if it is "committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack". The ICC is not retroactive: alleged crimes committed before 1 July 2002 cannot be judged by the ICC.

Which does not change the fact that it was UK territory. This is all beside the point. Diego Garcia was clearly UK territory. What the UK did or does with it is clearly up to the UK. The "new islands" in question in the South China Sea are NOT recognized Chinese territory, nor would they be under international law. Apples and oranges.

 

[Orionblamblam]

OK, ok, ok... we're getting kinda besides the point. So in order to stave off a flamewar, I suggest a totally reasonable compromise regarding the British kicking the Chagossians off their own island: the British should compensate the Chagossians by giving them... oh, let's say, Hong Kong. Everybody wins!

 

[Arian]

Sorry to intrude on this conversation, but did any of you look at a map of where the island in question is? This is on an island China occupied since 1974, and within China's internationally recognized economic maritime zone. Not as is being portrayed here.

 

[sferrin]

Sorry to intrude on this conversation, but did any of you look at a map of where the island in question is? This is on an island China occupied since 1974, and within China's internationally recognized economic maritime zone. Not as is being portrayed here.

@#$@#$ Yeah, forgot, I'd looked at that earlier and thought, "okay, that's not as bad as if they'd armed one of those new islands". My money is this is like boiling a frog. Get people use to China arming up on islands, then when they DO put weapons out there it doesn't get as much attention. This is far from over.

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-23/china-s-island-radar-bigger-threat-than-missiles-csis-says

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-southchinasea-china-jets-idUSKCN0VW2NF

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://news.yahoo.com/chinas-pacific-actions-galvanize-neighbors-against-pentagon-chief-200337819.html

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://gcaptain.com/china-blocking-philippine-boats-access-to-fishing-grounds-in-south-china-sea-officials-say/

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/dni-chinese-militarization-in-s-china-sea-aimed-at-rapid-power-projection/

 

[bobbymike]

http://www.businessinsider.com/mishandling-china-will-be-catastrophic-2016-3

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/09/opinions/china-military-reform/index.html

 

[Grey Havoc]

Indonesia to Summon China Ambassador Over Fishing Boat Incident (Thomson Reuters via gCaptain)