Centurion instead of Chieftain

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The Centurion was the most successful British tank ever built. In Israeli service it fought brilliantly in two wars. Several allied Nations used them in large numbers.
Its successor, Chieftain, seemed more like the Conqueror heavy tank with its heavy armour, underpowered engine and 120mm rifled gun. None were exported to Western countries.
The Leopard 1 on the other hand used the same 105mm gun as later Centurions and weighed roughlly the same with improved performance. It served with several NATO armies as well as Australia and Canada.
It had much higher readiness rates than BAOR Chieftains.
Could or should we have built a better Centurion class tank rather than going for the Chieftain?
 
I read a book once, which classified the Chieftain as really being a tank destroyer. This was based on the triangle, being disproportionately on armour and firepower, with no regard to mobility.

Given what has replaced the Leo 1 and the other centurions, in Europe, and indeed worldwide, is something closer to Chieftain, does this suggest UK was a trailblazer?
 
The idea of heavy armour and an accurate 120mm gun began with M103 and Conqueror ( in response to the Soviet JSIII and T10).
The Germans and US came uo with a mobile heavily armoured and long range missile/gun in MBT70. This led to the Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams which finally arrive in the 80s.
The problem with Chieftain then Challenger is that they lack the mobility, reliability.and fire on the move accuracy of M1 and Leo2. But the 120mm gun and heavy armiour was aporeciated by the Brits, less so the reliability.
 
Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread but I've often wondered if the Chieftain could have been fitted with the MTU MB838 engine and how the extra 70hp would have benefited its performance?
 
Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread but I've often wondered if the Chieftain could have been fitted with the MTU MB838 engine and how the extra 70hp would have benefited its performance?
You do address one of the issues with Chieftain. But I take it you prefer Chieftain to an evolved Centurion weight design with 105mm gun like Leo 1?
 
Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread but I've often wondered if the Chieftain could have been fitted with the MTU MB838 engine and how the extra 70hp would have benefited its performance?
You do address one of the issues with Chieftain. But I take it you prefer Chieftain to an evolved Centurion weight design with 105mm gun like Leo 1?
I've always regarded the Chieftain as a logical successor to Centurion with a logical step up of protection and firepower but without a commensurate increase in mechanical performance its major failure; which I regard the reason why no other 'Western' power adopted it.

If the UK had proceeded with a design as you suggest, it should have been "upgradable" in the same way as Centurion was so that if it was introduced using a L7 it should have been upgraded to a L11 (or similar) in the future. I do remember reading a question somewhere would it have been possible to upgraded the Centurion with a 120mm gun, but I can't remember where and what the answer was

It is one of the greatest failures of NATO IMO that we did not achieve a much greater level of commonality of equipment, much being surrendered in favour of national interests; for example the AMX30 and Leopard. Although my question relating to the MTU838 is to resolve the mechanical shortcoming of Chieftain I am also wondering about the standardization of equipment. Also I wonder what would be involve in fitting the engine, I am aware that when the Israeli's fitted the 1790 to the Centurion they had to fit it canted so it could fit in the engine bay

These are my views in my role as Armchair General with extensive experience in catering and reading a lot of books, and I really look forward to further discussions on the subject.

Regards
 
I read a book once, which classified the Chieftain as really being a tank destroyer. This was based on the triangle, being disproportionately on armour and firepower, with no regard to mobility.

Given what has replaced the Leo 1 and the other centurions, in Europe, and indeed worldwide, is something closer to Chieftain, does this suggest UK was a trailblazer?
I seem to recall a number of contemporaries arguing that the Chieftain was really a heavy tank, on similar grounds.
 
As only a pen pusher and historian I rely on the words and experience of others on most subjects here.
I think it is correct that Chieftain did evolve out of Centurion via a prototype called Caernarvon I think. For various reasons the result was closer to Conqueror in size and performance.
Other NATO nations used the UK 105mm gun on most of their tanks well into the 80s. Was the 120mm a worthwhile change?
A British Leopard 1 or whatever might have allowed greater numbers and better overseas sales
 
As only a pen pusher and historian I rely on the words and experience of others on most subjects here.
I think it is correct that Chieftain did evolve out of Centurion via a prototype called Caernarvon I think. For various reasons the result was closer to Conqueror in size and performance.
Other NATO nations used the UK 105mm gun on most of their tanks well into the 80s. Was the 120mm a worthwhile change?
A British Leopard 1 or whatever might have allowed greater numbers and better overseas sales
Far as I know there was little to no connection between the Chieftain and Caernarvon. The Caernarvon was an interim setup mating a Centurion turret (armed with either a 17pdr or 20pdr gun) to an FV201 "Universal Tank" chassis that was only ever used for training and trials. Most of those were then converted up into the FV214 Conqueror by swapping the Centurion turrets out for the huge newly-designed one mounting the L1 120mm gun.

The Chieftain was a sort of parallel evolution to the Centurion by Leyland, starting off with a modified Centurion chassis and proto-Chieftain turret with a 20pdr gun designated the FV4202. Near as I can tell, the War Office realized following the Korean War that the Conqueror was obsolescent and the idea of supporting two separate tanks and armament systems wasn't ideal. So the Chieftain would merge the Conqueror's long-range 120mm gun to a lighter chassis and adding a new mantlet-less turret to improve its capability in firing from defensive positions. The end result was initially a bit of a lemon, but in the end it turned out to be a respectable tank once a few upgrades were made.

Though personally I still would've liked to see the result of keeping the long-range heavy and the MBT/medium tank separate (and I suppose sidelining missiles a bit), if only to see a production version of the FV215b. Because practicality be damned, a Conqueror chassis sporting a rear-mounted turret for the (in)famous 183mm QF L4 monster gun would have been a hell of a thing to witness. Sabot rounds might be more technically effective, but you just can't argue with 7.2" HESH warhead that weighs a hundred and sixty pounds.
 
As only a pen pusher and historian I rely on the words and experience of others on most subjects here.
I think it is correct that Chieftain did evolve out of Centurion via a prototype called Caernarvon I think. For various reasons the result was closer to Conqueror in size and performance.
Other NATO nations used the UK 105mm gun on most of their tanks well into the 80s. Was the 120mm a worthwhile change?
A British Leopard 1 or whatever might have allowed greater numbers and better overseas sales
I seem to recall, at the time, the UK claimed others kept to the 105/'medium tank' due to them having conscript armies. UK was volunteer from the 60's.

There was of course the vickers tank, which was close to a new build centurion, with(wait for it) the chieftain engine........I think they ditched the engine pretty quick.
 
I have read that the L60 on the lighter Vickers MK1 was quite reliable, although the replacement of it by the Detroit Diesel on the MK3 puts a degree of doubt.
 
As only a pen pusher and historian I rely on the words and experience of others on most subjects here.
I think it is correct that Chieftain did evolve out of Centurion via a prototype called Caernarvon I think. For various reasons the result was closer to Conqueror in size and performance.
Other NATO nations used the UK 105mm gun on most of their tanks well into the 80s. Was the 120mm a worthwhile change?
A British Leopard 1 or whatever might have allowed greater numbers and better overseas sales
I seem to recall, at the time, the UK claimed others kept to the 105/'medium tank' due to them having conscript armies. UK was volunteer from the 60's.
As weird as that sounds at first, I can actually see how that could make some sense. The L7 105 uses a fixed shell, where as the L11A5 120 uses bagged charges. I'd imagine that would have to add a layer or two of complexity for training conscripts.
 
As a crewman on Chieftain I can state that loading was not a problem with a separate bag charge and was in fact a simple procedure. The only 'problem' of note was the lack of (Max) headroom for the loader but Chieftain was not alone in this respect, probably easier than loading one piece 105mm rounds and as I have an ex Centurion gunnery instructor who tells me this roof issue was not a problem with the Cent. Even looking at the armour layout you can tell the two were intended to use different tactics. Side armour for a Cent Mk 3 was a bit over 50mm while the Chieftain has only 38mm with protection concentrated over the frontal arc. We used pre prepared and Engineer prepared fire positions and bounding movement while Centurion was obviously very closely developed to the more freely moving engagement and side armour similar to PZKPFW V.
 
Side armour for a Cent Mk 3 was a bit over 50mm while the Chieftain has only 38mm with protection concentrated over the frontal arc. We used pre prepared and Engineer prepared fire positions and bounding movement while Centurion was obviously very closely developed to the more freely moving engagement and side armour similar to PZKPFW V.
That's interesting. Thanks Foo Fighter.
 
I'd say somebody did. The Vickers MBT Mk 3 to 7 fit that pretty closely

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The series has evolved since the mid 70's when it first appeared with the latest more closely resembling an M1 Abrams or Leopard II.
 
As has been mentioned above, the Chieftain was designed to be a long range rifle dug in waiting for the hordes of Soviet tanks to come to it. The Germans and the US (and the Belgians and Dutch) were keener on a more mobile engagement. The Germans in particular were keen to keep their forces on the move, counter attacking wherever possible.
Centurion had also been intended for deployment outside Europe (in Libya and the Gulf). Post the Suez crisis in 1956 UK forces outside Europe were designed to be air portable relying on recoilless rifles and later Swingfire/Vigilant to cope with enemy tanks.
The UK Strategic Reserve between 1961 and 1976 only had one Chieftain Regiment allocated to it (for use with the Brigade deployable to Denmark for NATO).
 
The Centurion was the most successful British tank ever built. In Israeli service it fought brilliantly in two wars. Several allied Nations used them in large numbers.
Its successor, Chieftain, seemed more like the Conqueror heavy tank with its heavy armour, underpowered engine and 120mm rifled gun. None were exported to Western countries.
The Leopard 1 on the other hand used the same 105mm gun as later Centurions and weighed roughlly the same with improved performance. It served with several NATO armies as well as Australia and Canada.
It had much higher readiness rates than BAOR Chieftains.
Could or should we have built a better Centurion class tank rather than going for the Chieftain?
Maybe the British should have either taken more notice of the Israeli employment and success with modern battlefield combat and not been so infatuated with their dilution of the likes of the Soviet T-10. In which case, maybe Britain could have actually worked closer with Israel to have derived a markedly improved Centurion derivative. After all the Israeli's proved the L7 105mm gun to remain effective long after Britain insisted on the 120mm....
At minimum an improved Centurion could have incorporated a derivative of the Bofors L/62 105mm rifled gun, a Continental diesel engine mated to the Allison transmission......

Just my thoughts

Regards
Pioneer
 
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Not sure why we're trying to fix something that isn't broken, other than the L60 engine of course.

Remember that the Israelis did not have to face the composite-armoured, 125mm smoothbore-armed T-64s and T-80s, which the 105mm would struggle with, and something which BAOR would undoubtedly face, given that they were situated on the North German Plain, where the Soviets planned to make their push to Antwerp, thus placed their best formations.

If we're going to fix the 120mm L11, it's only problem is that it isn't smoothbore and didn't fire APFSDS. The Soviet 100mm T-12 Smoothbore Anti-Tank gun enters service in 1961, the 115mm U5-TS Molot 115mm, and 115mm D68-T gun for the Object 432/T-64 sans-sufix in 1964. With these guns the Soviets were able to achieve similar performance with APFSDS with monobloc steel penetrators (and considerably superior performance with tungsten-carbide penetrators) to NATO guns firing APDS with tungsten penetrators.

Again the only problem with Chieftain's protection is the fact that it is using monolithic cast and welded rolled steel, when the Soviets are beginning to use composite armour with fibreglass for the glacis and ceramic balls and aluminium matrix for the turret for Object 432/T-64 sans-sufix in 1964.

It should be pointed out that the Soviets achieved this all on 35 tons whereas Chieftain was 55 tons (comparable with the design weight of the last generation of Soviet Heavy tanks like Object 279 and 770).

What could NATO have achieved with advances like smoothbore guns and composite armour freed from the Soviet's constraint of 35 tons, taking advantage of a 55-ton design weight and married to already-existing NATO advantages like superior ergonomics, fire control and training?
 
Much like Tentative Fleet Plan below, the historical failure of Chieftain doesn't mean a Centurion evolution would have been a better alternative, especially considering that the British industrial/military/political flaws that plagued Chieftain would also have plagued (and did plague!) Centurion regardless. At least a clean sheet like Chieftain was a better base for a 60's British tank than Centurion, which had a less efficient shape, size and internal arrangement (smaller turret ring than postwar vehicles, large and heavy without actually using internal space correctly, less armor for the weight than even other Western competitors, bigger target).​

Not sure why we're trying to fix something that isn't broken, other than the L60 engine of course.

Remember that the Israelis did not have to face the composite-armoured, 125mm smoothbore-armed T-64s and T-80s, which the 105mm would struggle with, and something which BAOR would undoubtedly face, given that they were situated on the North German Plain, where the Soviets planned to make their push to Antwerp, thus placed their best formations.

If we're going to fix the 120mm L11, it's only problem is that it isn't smoothbore and didn't fire APFSDS. The Soviet 100mm T-12 Smoothbore Anti-Tank gun enters service in 1961, the 115mm U5-TS Molot 115mm, and 115mm D68-T gun for the Object 432/T-64 sans-sufix in 1964. With these guns the Soviets were able to achieve similar performance with APFSDS with monobloc steel penetrators (and considerably superior performance with tungsten-carbide penetrators) to NATO guns firing APDS with tungsten penetrators.

Again the only problem with Chieftain's protection is the fact that it is using monolithic cast and welded rolled steel, when the Soviets are beginning to use composite armour with fibreglass for the glacis and ceramic balls and aluminium matrix for the turret for Object 432/T-64 sans-sufix in 1964.

It should be pointed out that the Soviets achieved this all on 35 tons whereas Chieftain was 55 tons (comparable with the design weight of the last generation of Soviet Heavy tanks like Object 279 and 770).

What could NATO have achieved with advances like smoothbore guns and composite armour freed from the Soviet's constraint of 35 tons, taking advantage of a 55-ton design weight and married to already-existing NATO advantages like superior ergonomics, fire control and training?
Remember we're talking about 50's Britain, a country that sure invested a lot in the military at the time but with an inept procurement system, a weakening industry and limited financial ressources. None of those factors really encourage pushing the enveloppe like the US did. L11 seems like a British compromise in that regard, with tungsten alloy APDS and bagged charges being better than what preceded them and mature, but worse than the less mature APFSDS and semi-combustible cartridges developped by the US which became viable in the 70's (though the Soviets achieved both in the late 50's, showing the West could have come up with successful designs this early).

But yes, if the West managed to achieve Soviet successes while keeping their respective advantages, they would have been able to do much more than the Soviets that were overly constrained by some technical hurdles and excessive weight and size requirements.

In any case, fixing Chieftain itself with British ressources would have required:
- Vickers' torsion bar design in use on all British AFVs bar tanks since the FV300 program, to reduce the weight and improve the performance of the suspension
- higher reliability/quality control standards. Chieftain DIDN'T HAVE to be unreliable even with its weight
- better management to enter service in time around 1962-63 with a mature engine. What makes Chieftain look dated is the fact it was not fully mature until the early 70s while its competitors were usually finished by the first half of the 60s.
- less schizophrenic powertrain design: you can't make a 50+ ton monster and only request the same engine power as Western tanks over 10 tonnes lighter, nor can you ask for a compact engine and then ruin the entire design by making it straight (ultra tall) with an arrangement that still makes the engine bay as large as those for supposedly bigger and more powerful engines AND not emphasize light weight and small size in the rest of the entire tank.

The British may prioritize protection over mobility unlike the rest of NATO, but that doesn't excuse such an absolutely retarded powertrain design that it's not even a tradeoff anymore!
 
Weren't the Israelis involved in the development of the Chieftain? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.
Most of my Military history books in particular my technical stuff seems to have vanished into boxes in the basement .
But I do recall that pretty clearly.
 
Weren't the Israelis involved in the development of the Chieftain? I seem to recall reading that somewhere.
Most of my Military history books in particular my technical stuff seems to have vanished into boxes in the basement .
But I do recall that pretty clearly.
Not direct developpers but they got to test Chieftains (the Mk 4 with more fuel for Israel), which helped provide some foreign-user opinions on the tank and to fix some flaws. Nothing that major and it would have had a major impact only if Israel actually got the full order, as the Israelis were quite interested in developping the L60 engine and may well accelerate bug-fixing in that area.
 

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