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Breda Tebaldi-Zari

theponja

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Seems time to review Italian projects :)

About the Tebaldi-Zari:

"An engineer named Tebaldi designed the Tebaldi-Zari, which was a was a single-seat wooden sesquiplane with heavily staggered wings and a 142 kW (190 hp) Isotta-Fraschini water-cooled V6 engine driving a two-bladed tractor propeller. Its fixed, tail skid landing gear was of very unusual configuration; the main gear was of very wide track and had oversized main wheels with their axle incorporated into the lower wing. "
from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tebaldi-Zari

I wonder why they designed the landing gear on that way. I've found just a couple of pictures online. Anyone has more information? a 3d view ?

Regards
Luis
 

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Grey Havoc

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It almost looks like it was intended for use from very rough airstrips. Perhaps the designers were originally aiming at some Italian requirement in the 1918/19 timeframe for a aircraft that could operate under colonial conditions? Just a guess.
 

frank

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I'm thinking drag reduction. It looks very sleek with the upper wing mounted so closely on top of the fuselage. Maybe some structural advantage to using the wheels' axle as the lower wing spar as well.
 

Retrofit

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3V drawing from Aerofan n°58 Lug.-Sett.1996.
 

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lucamax

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From Aerofan N°49 1989
 

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taildragger

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frank said:
I'm thinking drag reduction. It looks very sleek with the upper wing mounted so closely on top of the fuselage. Maybe some structural advantage to using the wheels' axle as the lower wing spar as well.

I'm sure drag was lower, but unless the wheel was internally sprung (doubtful given the date) the arrangement seems like a great way to damage the wing structure on the high quality airfield surfaces of the day.
 

theponja

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Retrofit and Lucamax thanks a lot for the pictures.

It's very interesting in the the 3d view for the Hispano Suiza engine shows some king of wheels cover but the pictures just shows the wheels in the same way than the first version.

Taildragger I agree with you: Why compromise the wing structure with the integrated wheels? So I keep wondering what they tough to design the undercarriage on that way.
 

lucamax

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Hi, sorry for the late post, but I didn't have enough time in theese days to read and make a search about the aircraft. However... The airplane was built in 1922 for a request for a new day-fighter single seater. In the official documents, the new plane should have an engine of at almost 300 hp, an orizontal speed at least of 255 km/h, a minimal speed of 110 km/h, a range of 3 hours and a strenght coefficient of 12. The Tebladi-Zari didn't reach the strenght requests, but a prototype was built by Breda, who reproposed the aircraft with a Hispano-Suiza HS.42, in the projects was proposed an Isotta Fraschini V6. Also the prototype was not accepted and the aircraft was lost.
 

Potawatomi13

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;D I'm a little surprised no one else thought of this.
To my sense of logic they eliminated the landing gear legs and bracing wires/struts along with all of its weight and aerodynamic drag by simply using large diameter narrow wheels. These larger wheels handled rough fields much better than smaller wheels most planes this size used. Also doing this lowered the front of the plane significantly giving the pilot a somewhat better view while grounded as he had to look over the wing.
Bill Kohler
 

Jan den Das

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It was first Tebaldi-Zari (Zari factory)
Later it was gone to Breda and it became Breda-Tebaldi, there they build a new version with smaller fuselage B-T
 

Jan den Das

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lucamax can you explain why I found that the airforce requested a fighter with a HS42 engine and you mention a isotta?
The first 2 fiats were powered with Hispano. Piaggio P2 HS, SIAI S.52 was to late for the contest but would be powered by a HS.
So ?????
The problem with the Tebaldi designs is that there were 2 versions and Tebaldi was working for Isotta so he would known which engined would be used!
 

riggerrob

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Looks like they wanted to improve the pilot's view forward and upwards, so mounted the cockpit rim in line with the top wing. Given the correct vertical spacing to the lower wing put the lower wing spar very close to the wheel axle, so they combined the two parts to simplify construction.
 

Jjr

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Some corrections, during the construction onf the Tebaldi-Zari there were part of wheel covers placed who later were removed.
The drawing from Aerofan was the Tebaldi-Zari so it has flown, but the engine was a Isotta Fraschini.
From the three drawings showed was the drawing on the right the Breda BT version, with a 300 Hispano-Suiza engine, as requested by the Airforce.
The drawing on the left was just a study/project, not build.
What is mentioned concerning the engines is incorrect.

Are there pictures taken during the 1923 fighter contest, which showed on the background parts of other aeroplanes?
Maybe it will showed a part of the Breda BT of which is mentioned there are no pictures.
I hope to find such a picture, because the drawing op the Breda BT is not complete (my opinion)
 

lucamax

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lucamax can you explain why I found that the airforce requested a fighter with a HS42 engine and you mention a isotta?
The first 2 fiats were powered with Hispano. Piaggio P2 HS, SIAI S.52 was to late for the contest but would be powered by a HS.
So ?????
The problem with the Tebaldi designs is that there were 2 versions and Tebaldi was working for Isotta so he would known which engined would be used!

Dear,
I don't know: I've just reported the article information!
I'll check better! ;)
Best regards.
 

Kant1983

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Jjr

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Sorry but what will you tel us with these pages, kant?
Breda bt mentioned by dujin is not the bt but the tebaldi-zari.
The bt had a different wing and a slimmer fuselage.
The radiator on the model is wrong.
 

gt3

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Based on the scant photographic evidence, it will be hard to come up with the whole truth...
However, it is easily seen the on the pictures allegedly depicting the original 1st prototype, there are exahaust stacks visible on both the left and the right side of the aircraft. We can also discern 4 exhaust runners, which pretty much means the engine was a V8 (hispano-Suiza?) and not an Isotta in-line 6.
This picture of the Hispano, also shows the same unequal spacing of the ports, which is sufficient eveidence for me.
 

ermeio

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There is a lot of picture of Tebaldi Zari... an entire book on this aircraft series was published in Italy some years ago (2014).
 
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ermeio

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The name of the book is "Tebaldi Zari and Breda BT", the author is Alessandro Tebaldi, the grandson of the designer, who used the content of an old leather suitcase left by his grandfather, full of memories like photos, plans, newspapers' cuts and the like.
It is very well documented with some scans of the construction plans - I don't know whether it is still on the market, but you can check IMG_20200606_112038.jpg IMG_20200606_112055.jpg IMG_20200606_112110.jpg
 

ermeio

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Anyway, in the book the author says that the only extant document of the first version of the TZ fighter powered by Isotta Fraschini V.6 190 HP is the original linen paper drawing signed by the designer, on 30/04/1918, while all of the pictures are of the Hispano-Suiza Powered version.
 

jzichek

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I regret missing out on this one; looks like the book is sold out. As a warning to those looking for this book, there appears to be an overpriced book with a similar title that reprints Wikipedia content on the aircraft. Avoid!
 

hesham

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From Ali Antiche 108,

there's an advertisement about a Book about this aircraft,and a text
explanation;

Once again the renowned publisher Milanese proposes a real one
"Gem" to the audience of fans of history of Italian aviation: an unprecedented
collection of photos c of original documents on the rare biplane fighter prototype “Tebaldi Zari”, who made the first flight in the summer of 1918, and its derivative “Breda BT”, which was entered in the competition
banned by the Regia Aeronautica in 1923 for a construction land fighter
national.

the Author, grandson of the engineer Alessandro Tebaldi (1888-1943) designer of this unusual flying spot,takes the opportunity of the lucky find,
in an old folder found in the attic of the ancient family home, of documents, drawings and original photos, for remember the career and the works of
the grandfather, who was the technical manager of Isotta Fraschini from
1915 to 1921, the year in which he founded FITAC, then FIMAC, specialized
in aeronautic components, many of the which result of his own patents.
The biplane fighter designed by Tebaldi was built in the workshops of
the Zari brothers a Bovisio Masciago (MB), where it was subjected to
static tests (documented here from numerous photographs and notes),
and then take off from the nearby Mombello runway on 10 August
1918, In the following years the aircraft was subjected to experimentation, milling and modifications, flying up to 1921, and finally evolving into the
"BT" developed on behalf of Breda, but remained without continuation.
 

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ermeio

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Yes, Hesham, pity that the book is no longer available, while a bogus advertisment is popping out from time to time repeating the title of the book, while the content is crap.
I am lucky enough to have one in my collection and that book is a little gem (see some posts above)
 

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