• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Beyond the Spitfire - The Unseen Designs of R J Mitchell by Ralph Pegram

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
Now at the printers and available 2nd May 2016

http://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/publication/Beyond-the-Spitfire/9780750965156/

Chapter 1. Supermarine – origin and the early years
Noel Pemberton Billing
Hubert Scott-Paine
Supermarine Aviation Works Ltd
Reginald Mitchell arrives
The Supermarine Baby
Chapter 2. 1919 - Supermarine meets the challenge of peace
Securing the business
Staff changes
The first Channels
Racing
Speculative designs
Chapter 3. Mitchell’s first flying boats
Olympia - new variations on old themes
Selling the Channel
Commercial Amphibian competition
Military designs
Racing again
Chapter 4. Commercial aircraft and airlines
Diversification and expansion
British Marine Air Navigation
Chapter 5. Production at last
The struggle to survive
Seagulls
Chapter 6. More racing and Scott-Paine departs
Defending the Schneider Trophy
James Bird takes over
Chapter 7. The move to big ‘boats
Multi-engine flying boats
The Southampton
Nanok
Chapter 8. Expanding the design team, light aircraft and more amphibians
The Design Department
Mitchell’s first land aeroplane
The next generation of amphibians
Chapter 9. Racing: a new direction and a dead end
Mitchell’s first monoplane
Chapter 10. Competition and the introduction of fabrication in metal
The rise of the flying boats
The metallurgy department
Chapter 11. A move away from marine aircraft
Mitchell’s first true fighter
Chapter 12. Schneider Trophy racers; a triumph and a distraction
Success in Venice
Chapter 13. 1927 – New ideas
Supermarine relaunched
Dornier
The big ‘boat designs
Mitchell joins the board
Chapter 14. Vickers
Takeover
Reorganisation
New recruits
Chapter 15. Hard Times
Schneider success and the air speed record
Southampton X and the Air Yacht
Small civil flying boats
Chapter 16. The saga of the six-engined flying boats
Dornier again
Concepts for very large flying boats
The Giant awakes
The Giant’s demise
Chapter 17. The Type 178 projects
Random ideas, embryo projects, none of the above
Chapter 18. Transition
Seeking overseas customers
Torpedo Bomber
Civil flying boats
Australian amphibian
Canadian Monoplane
The final Schneider success and another air speed record
Chapter 19. Replacing the Southampton
Scapa
Stranraer
Chapter 20. Small Amphibians & Miscellaneous projects
Small Amphibians
Seagull V
Sea Otter
Transports
Coastal patrol
Un-numbered projects
Chapter 21. Fighters
Late 1920’s biplane fighters
F.7/30 and the quest for innovation
Type 300
Designing the Spitfire
On elliptical wings
The Spitfire in context
Two-seat fighters
Cannon fighters
Chapter 22. Competition and the four-engined flying boats
Coastal Patrol
Imperial Airways
Sikorsky
Mitchell’s views on air transport
Flying Boats for Imperial Airways
Short’s monoplane flying boats
Trans-Atlantic flying boats
Chapter 23. More twin-engined flying boats
Replacing the Stranraer
High-speed monoplane flying boats
Chapter 24. Bombers
Bombers in the 1920s
Single engine bombers for the 1930s
B.1/35 Twin Engined Heavy Bomber
B.12/36 Four Engine Heavy Bomber
Chapter 25. Supermarine after Mitchell
Turmoil and uncertainty in the Works
Pre-war projects
Chapter 26. RJ, the man and the rise of a legend
The legend
R.J.Mitchell; the man
Genius

Appendix 1. Orphan designs
Appendix 2. The Spitfire’s skewed elliptical wing and notes on NACA aerofoils
Appendix 3. The Design Department
Appendix 4. Supermarine Project list and index
 

Attachments

Antonio

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,403
Reaction score
97
Absolutely awesome!!!! Many thanks sir!
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,516
Reaction score
527
Looks like a very interesting book. I need to make another space ready on the bookshelf I think.
 

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,790
Reaction score
38
Striking cover.. interesting contents... one for the collection !

P.S. any idea about the index..?
 

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
Sorry about the formatting but this should give you an idea about content. Every project/aircraft is illustrated with a 3-view redrawn from the original Supermarine blueprints

Appendix 4 Supermarine Project List and Index

(********See cleaned-up table in the next post***********Thanks Paul)
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
11,826
Reaction score
1,682
Converted using http://theenemy.dk/table/

Appendix 4 Supermarine Project List and Index
YearProject Chapter
1917BabyN59, 60, 611
1919Single Seat Flying Boat, Type A2
2-engined, 3-seater flying boat, Type B2
Channel, Type CMod. AD Flying Boat1
3-engined triplane flying boat, ‘Dolphin’ Type D2
Sea LionEx Baby N612
‘Shark’ triplane flying boat2
1920Single seat flying boat3
Sea KingEx Baby N603
Channel II, 4-seater3
Amphibian (Commercial Amphibian)3
Single seat scout and bomber3
Single seat ship’s flying boat3
Amphibian flying boat for ship work3
Seal Mk II3
1921Fleet gunnery spotting amphibian3
Triplane torpedo carrier flying boat3
Swan 7-seater commercial amphibian flying boat4
Sea King IIEx Sea King3
Single seat fighter flying boat for ship use3
7-seater commercial flying boat4
Commercial amphibian flying boat for Instone4
School amphibian flying boat3
Seagull amphibian flying boatSeagull II & III5
Scylla flying boat torpedo carrierHull only3
19228-seat commercial amphibian4
Amphibian flying boat, school machineMod. Channel-
Bomber amphibian flying boat5
Twin-engined bomber amphibian5
4 seat commercial amphibian flying boat4
Twin-engined commercial flying boatEarly Swan-
Sea Lion IIEx Sea King II3
Swan twin-engined civil amphibian flying boat4
Sea Eagle4
Amphibian flying boat for long distance work‘Round the World’4
3-seat amphibian flying boat4
1923Amphibian flying boat service bomber type5
3-engined flying boat to AM spec 9/237
Sheldrake amphibian flying boat service bomber type5
Sea Lion IIIEx Sea Lion II6
Sea Urchin high performance flying boat6
Commercial and general service amphibian flying boatCivil Sheldrake5
1924Scarab amphibian flying boat service bomber5
Twin engine flying boat converted to armed reconnaissanceBased on Swan7
Amphibian flying boat fleet spotter2 designs8
Service type twin engine flying boat7
Sparrow two-seater aeroplanebiplane8
Southampton7
Twin engine amphibian flying boat2 designs8
1925Single-seater high performance seaplane9
Shark twin-engine flying boat7
Swan MkII twin-engine amphibian flying boat7
Condor light bomber amphibian8
Southampton II10
Southampton twin engine flying boat for civil purposes7
1926Seamew8
S4 seaplane9
Southampton development 3-engined flying boat3 designs7
Solent/Nanok FBVII torpedo bomber7
S5 seaplane12
Sparrow II two-seater aeroplanemonoplane8
Twin-engine flying boat for civil purposesCivil Seamew8
Solent 3-engined flying boat for civil purposes-
Single seat fleet fighter to AM spec. 21/263 designs11
19273-engined flying boat to AM spec 4/27biplane13
3-engined flying boat to AM spec 4/27 & air yachtmonoplane13
1928S6 seaplane15
Flying boat 6 Napier XI engines6 designs16
Seamew – single Napier Lion or Bristol Jupiter engine8
3-engine monoplane Air Yacht15
3-engine monoplane flying boatApp 1
Type 171 Southampton Mark X15
Type 171 civil Southampton Mark X15
1929Six engined flying boat to AM spec.R.6/2816
Type 179 Six engined flying boat to AM spec. 20/28 Contract cancelled16
Type 178 00 Sea Hawk 3 engined civil flying boat15
Type 180 4 engined civil flying boat18
1930Twin engine flying boat – Hispano Suiza engines3 designs18
Type 178 00 Sea Hawk 3 engined amphibian flying boat17
Twin engined fleet spotter to AM spec. 9/3018
Type 178 00 3-engined civil amphibian flying boat17
1931Type 178 01 Civil mail carrier17
Type 178 02 Single engined bomber & reconnaissance amphibian17
Type 181 Amphibian flying boat for the RAAF & civil15
4 engined civil amphibianApp 1
4 engined monoplane flying boatApp 1
Type 178 03 Twin-engined air mail boat17
Type 182 General purpose commercial high-wing monoplane18
Type 183 General purpose commercial low-wing monoplaneNo information-
Type 184 Southampton II (R-R Kestrels and metal wings)N25310
Type 185 Southampton X (mod. with Bristol Jupiters)15
Type 186 S6a (refurbished S6 with new floats)18
Type 187 S6b18
Type 188 Southampton X modified with cockpit canopy15
Type 189 Southampton II modified with Bristol JupitersModified N21810
Type 190 Southampton II export versions; Turkey etc-
Type 178 04 Twin engine Southampton flying boat19
Type 178 05 Twin engine flying boat19
Type 178 06 Sea HawkSouthampton Mk X-
Type 178 07 Southampton IV19
Type 178 08 Proposal to reduce landing speedS6b18
Type 178 09 High performance day bomber24
Type 178 10 Single seat day and night fighter (biplane and monoplane)21
1932Type 178 11 3-engined monoplane flying boatMilitary Air Yacht-
Type 178 12 Single seat biplane day and night fighterMod. Type 178 1021
Type 178 14 Single seat monoplane day and night fighterMod. Type 178 1021
Type 221 Southampton IVScapa prototype19
Type 222 Floats for Vickers Vildebeest-
Type 223 Seagull V single engine amphibian flying boatPrototype N220
Type 224 Single seat monoplane day and night to AM spec. F.7/3021
Type 225 Single engine civil amphibian flying boatCivil Seagull V20
Type 226 ScapaProduction19
Type 227 Southampton V to AM spec. R.24/3119
Type 228 Seagull VProduction20
Type 229 Scapa with experimental stainless steel wing spars-
Type 230 Southampton V/StranraerPrototype19
Type 231 Twin engine bomber transport to AM spec. C.26/31-
Type 232 Four engine boat seaplane to AM spec. R.2/3322
Type 233 Southampton II for Turkey, Hispano-Suiza 12Nbr engines-
1933Type 234 Southampton II for Turkey, Hispano-Suiza 12Nbr engines-
Type 235 Scapa with Napier Culverin diesel engines19
Type 236 WalrusProduction20
1934Type 237 Stranraer (and projected civil adaptation)Production19
Type 238 Biplane boat seaplane to AM spec. R.2/3322
Type 239 Four engine boat seaplane to AM spec. R.2/3322
Type 240 Twin engine coastal reconnaissance landplane-
Type 300 F.7/30 developmentProjects & Spitfire I21
Type 301 Floats for Vickers Vincent-
Type 302 Four engine flying boat for Imperial Airways22
Type 303 R.24/31 Scapa development4 designs23
1935Type 304 Stranraer development – Canadian Vickers production-
Heavy bomber landplane to AM spec. B.1/3524
Type 305 Two seater day and night fighter AM spec. F.9/3521
Type 306 Flying Boat for Imperial Airways transatlantic passenger service22
Type 307 Seagull V – Pegasus VI-
Type 308 Long range flying boat to AM spec. R.12/3523
Type 309 Sea Otter20
Type 310 Long range flying boat23
1936Type 311No information-
Type 312 Single seat day and night fighter to AM spec. F.37/3521
Type 313 Single seat day and night fighter to AM spec. F.37/35-
Type 314 High performance flying boat to AM spec. R.1/3623
Type 315 Walrus for Argentina-
1937Type 316 Heavy Bomber to AM spec. B.12/3624
Type 317 Heavy Bomber to AM spec. B.12/36 – Hercules enginesTwo prototypes24
Type 318 Heavy Bomber to AM spec. B.12/36 – Merlin engines24
Type 319 2 seat fighter25
Type 320 Walrus for Turkey-
1938Type 321 Mark IV gun turret24
Type 322 Aircraft to AM spec. S.24/37-
Type 323 Speed Spitfire21, 25
Type 324 Fighter to AM spec. F.18/3725
Type 325 Fighter to AM spec. F.18/3725
Type 326 Walrus development - Pegasus VI-
Type 327 High speed single seat cannon gun fighter25
1939Type 328 Flying boat to AM spec. R.5/3925
Type 329 Spitfire Mk II
Type 330 Spitfire Mk III
Type 331 Spitfire Mk V
Type 332 Spitfire FN gun (for Estonia)
Type 333 Two seat fleet fighter to AM spec. N.8/3925
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
25,257
Reaction score
2,116
Hi,

311 was a Supermarine designation for Spitfire F37/34 with Merlin E engine,only a project.

http://www.k5054.com/variants.html
 

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
Possibly, the date would be about right but no drawings seem to exist to confirm this (presumably if it was a simple upgrade of the Spitfire it would only have involved minor changes and any drawings would be unlikely to have been retained). As it is followed by the type 312, which is not a simple Spitfire variant and possibly based on an earlier version of the Type 300, it leaves a few questions in my mind so I have chosen to leave this as unknown
 

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,790
Reaction score
38
Impressive list..... thanks!
 

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
covert_shores said:
Impressive cover. Love the quality artwork
Front and back cover, plus some further colour illustrations, courtesy of Matt Painter http://www.matt-painter.co.uk/
 

hesham

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
25,257
Reaction score
2,116
Schneiderman said:
Possibly, the date would be about right but no drawings seem to exist to confirm this (presumably if it was a simple upgrade of the Spitfire it would only have involved minor changes and any drawings would be unlikely to have been retained). As it is followed by the type 312, which is not a simple Spitfire variant and possibly based on an earlier version of the Type 300, it leaves a few questions in my mind so I have chosen to leave this as unknown
But Mr. Tony Buttler confirmed on this ?.
 

Attachments

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
However, as you can see, that list is contradictory. Type 300 covers the various project designs leading to the Spitfire, the prototype and the production of the Mk1. F.37/34 was written to support the order for the prototype so clearly Type 311 has to have been something different.
 

Maveric

Fight for yor Right!
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
1,884
Reaction score
231
Can you tell me the designation of the airplane back cover? Thanks
 

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
Maveric said:
Can you tell me the designation of the airplane back cover? Thanks
Certainly! It is one of a number of preliminary concepts for a large, six-engine flying boat to specification R.6/28. It seems that Supermarine, and probably most other companies, played with a variety of ideas before selecting the best and proceeding with detailed design. Only then was it designated an official project number/name
 

theponja

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
428
Reaction score
5
You know Schneiderman this isn't good. As a lot of guys here I started this with the luft46 stuff. I was happy to buy several books on German projects, later because this forum I added Japanese and American books. Of course with a lot of explanations to my wife.
You, yes YOU make me add the Schneider Trophy book and now this .... I've to prepare anothe fight for this book.

Very interesting by the Way ;)
 

cluttonfred

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
1,335
Reaction score
51
Website
cluttonfred.info
I just ordered my copy....oddly for less in dollars from the U.S. Amazon site than the price in pounds on the UK Amazon site!
 

theponja

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
428
Reaction score
5
cluttonfred said:
I just ordered my copy....oddly for less in dollars from the U.S. Amazon site than the price in pounds on the UK Amazon site!
I'm live in Argentina and I always end ordering on bookdepository. Is cheaper than Amazon US + shipping.
 

theponja

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
428
Reaction score
5
I know the enginiering solutions determine in same way all the planes looks similar but I love the one on the back cover. Looks so "dieselpunk".,
I'd like to see more designs like this to be real.
Just to see it on more detail is going to be great.

Scheiderman I imagine this is a 3d model.
 

Attachments

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
Alcides said:
Scheiderman I imagine this is a 3d model.
Yes it is, one built by Matt Painter. The colour section of the book includes several 3D renders, some by myself and other by Matt (see the link in post #11 to see examples of his work for clients)
 

Nick Sumner

Live! From the Belly of the Beast!
Senior Member
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
469
Reaction score
55
Really looking forward to this volume! Schneider Trophy Seaplanes and Flying Boats set a benchmark for quality in all departments and I'm sure this next effort will be just as good. Please let us know when it is released.
 

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
Thanks! Glad you liked it.
Personally I think this one is better; different publishing style but better. Still scheduled to be released on 2nd May but I'll put a post here if it changes.
 

theponja

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
428
Reaction score
5
Schneiderman said:
Alcides said:
Scheiderman I imagine this is a 3d model.
Yes it is, one built by Matt Painter. The colour section of the book includes several 3D renders, some by myself and other by Matt (see the link in post #11 to see examples of his work for clients)
Nice works from Matt but not planes :(
 

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
True, his illustrations for my book was the first time he had tackled aircraft apart from some work he did for the group building a replica Westland Whirlwind (fighter not helicopter)
 

SlickDriver

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
162
Reaction score
4
Wow!! Thank you - my order is in and I eagerly await it's arrival
 

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
Hi all,
Book left the publishers today and should be available from UK booksellers within days.
Cheers
 

Attachments

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,790
Reaction score
38
Ordered the book a few weeks ago... eagerly lookin' forward :D
 

elmayerle

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
1,293
Reaction score
56
On order from Amazon here in the US. They tell me it's arriving in their warehouse in the US in the early part of October.
 

theponja

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
428
Reaction score
5
Schneiderman said:
Hi all,
Book left the publishers today and should be available from UK booksellers within days.
Cheers
Great!!! Nice picture!!!

Update: bookdepository tell me my order is on the way!!! :) :) :)
 

CJGibson

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
286
My copy arrived today.

Not my usual fare, as you might imagine, but my interest in flying boats prompted my purchase.

I've just had a quick flick through it and it certainly looks good, with Matt Painter's artwork very impressive.

Nice job, Ralph.

Chris
 

Schneiderman

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,290
Reaction score
196
Thanks Chris, I hope you find something of interest in it.
 

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,790
Reaction score
38
Book arrived.During the 'browsing phase' a found already a few gems.
Use the weekend to work my way in it.
 

lark

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
1,790
Reaction score
38
I'm on 2/3 of the book.
You not give us just one book but three in one... !
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,265
Reaction score
321
I have also been reading this over the weekend, overall its an excellent effort rich detail. It's a really great contribution to a topic about which I knew little. It should be of special interest to anyone wishing to know more about interwar British aviation design.

Well done and thank you Ralph/Schneiderman!
 
Top