Bell 360 Invictus (FARA program)

TomcatViP said:
A view of the gargantuan effectors bay (wb).

bell-360-build-update-6-img3186.jpg


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Im interested in the decision to go fully open with the bay, earlier concept art didn't portray it as a pass-through. Did they just do it to maximize space, or do they have something specific in mind which requires it?
 
@Moose - several options I think. First the bay may not be completed to the point where there is an enclosure. Alternately there may have been a decision to remove it to save weight.
 
Fingers crossed they are designing marinisation into the platform from the start so it can be a viable Viper replacement down the track. This is also something many existing Apache customers will require as many use them in a marine environment as required.
 
yasotay said:
@Moose - several options I think. First the bay may not be completed to the point where there is an enclosure. Alternately there may have been a decision to remove it to save weight.
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Their latest concept art shows it fully open, though obviously all concept art comes with a dose of salt. Weight savings are a definite possibility.
 
yasotay said:
@Moose - several options I think. First the bay may not be completed to the point where there is an enclosure. Alternately there may have been a decision to remove it to save weight.
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I feel option one is most likely. They have released other pictures with the bay doors in place or at least the bay has a cover that matches the shape of the eventual doors.
 
Volkodav said:
Fingers crossed they are designing marinisation into the platform from the start so it can be a viable Viper replacement down the track. This is also something many existing Apache customers will require as many use them in a marine environment as required.
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At present USMC has shown no interest in a FARA based vehicle. Their program to replace both the Viper and the Venom is for a larger, more capable vehicle developed under their Aura program.
 
F-14D said:
Volkodav said:
Fingers crossed they are designing marinisation into the platform from the start so it can be a viable Viper replacement down the track. This is also something many existing Apache customers will require as many use them in a marine environment as required.
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At present USMC has shown no interest in a FARA based vehicle. Their program to replace both the Viper and the Venom is for a larger, more capable vehicle developed under their Aura program.
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And they want something that can go the distance and speed of the MV-22B
 
Looks are obviously secondary but I definitely preferred the look of the design when it had the fenestron tail rotor. Seems like it would have been better for signature reduction too if you consider the respectable attributes of the RAH-66 in that area.
 
False economies are all the rage at the moment, unfortunately.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
Looks are obviously secondary but I definitely preferred the look of the design when it had the fenestron tail rotor. Seems like it would have been better for signature reduction too if you consider the respectable attributes of the RAH-66 in that area.
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One of the things learned from the Comanche program was that in its environment and mission, big signature reduction really wasn't all that much of a benefit. Same thing applies to FARA. Consider: One of the major requirements is to operate in an urban environment (that's what drove the 40' rotor diameter requirement). OK. So, is it really worth all the effort and cost (in maintainability, weiight, money, etc.) to get big signature reduction when the other side can just look out the window and see you?
 
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A friend talked to a Sikorsky engineer who worked at the Comanche program, the real purpose of this program was just to develope the technology and channel those funds for other programs i.e. the bin Laden stealth Blackhawk
 
stimpy75 said:
A friend talked to a Sikorsky engineer who worked at the Comanche program, the real purpose of this program was just to develope the technology and channel those funds for other programs i.e. the bin Laden stealth Blackhawk
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Of course.

I imagine that both of the vendors are working hard to reduce weight where they can since the Army has given them almost mutually exclusive requirements that are not likely to make a light platform. The digitally designed, additive manufactured, composite component, and built aircraft sounds great. We will have to see if it gets past the less visionary test community and then what happens when bullets start getting a vote.
 
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stimpy75 said:
The stealth Blackhawk was a guess from my side, not what my friend said
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Regardless, if it was such an endeavor, it was as good as the effort by the CIA to get a Soviet submarine off the bottom of the Pacific Ocean without anyone knowing. I mean there were actual flying prototypes, massive efforts to develop tactics and procedures, heck the Army actually wrote field manuals for Comanche operations. By this I mean that there was a phenomenal amount of overhead to develop stealth for "another" program. I can believe that another program benefited from the development of the technology though.
 

Bell Targeting Second Half Of ’23 For Invictus First Flight | Aviation Week Network

Bell’s tandem-cockpit, single-main-rotor Invictus is competing for the FARA contest against Sikorsky’s Raider X.
aviationweek.com aviationweek.com
Bell aims to start test flights of its Bell 360 Invictus demonstrator for the U.S. Army’s Future Attack Reconnaissance Aircraft (FARA) contest in the second half of this year pending delivery of the helicopter’s General Electric T901 turboshaft in March-April.
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...the vehicle is now 95% complete and will undergo ground tests through the first half of the year, says Jayme Gonzalez, program manager for the Bell 360.
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An interesting read that embraces all aspects of t Bell's rotorcrafts offer, including the Invictus:

www.flightglobal.com

Not just a helicopter company: Bell makes a play for the future of vertical lift

The Textron subsidiary, which rose to 20th century prominence as the maker of the Vietnam-era UH-1 Huey and over a dozen commercial helicopter types, is envisioning a new future for itself pioneering the next era of vertical flight.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com
 
These type of videos make me think it would be cool if they made a TV show using video game “cut scene” level graphics called “Global Strike” or something showing different missions from counter terrorism/hostage rescue to armored warfare to a carrier battle group taking out a WMD facility. I must miss GI Joe from my childhood
View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/-WmsMRaAAUw
 
Some smartass designer needs a <serious exhortation> - because that is what he is setting up the poor sods that have to ride completely unprotected in that fuckup will face.

Not to mention losing hands, feet, etc to freezing during winter ops, and having their skin (and outer flesh) sand-blasted off in desert ops during take-off and landing - unless of course they have come up with heated/cooled battle armor that covers the entire body in a cold/sand-proof enclosure.
 
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BlackBat242 said:
Some smartass designer <serious exhortation> - because that is what he is setting up the poor sods that have to ride completely unprotected in that fuckup will face.
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This is how the operators ride on a Little Bird right now. So, this is clearly Bell's answer to how their entry can do the SOCOM mission.

1695822621212.png
 
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BlackBat242 said:
Some smartass designer needs a <serious exhortation> - because that is what he is setting up the poor sods that have to ride completely unprotected in that fuckup will face.
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Ahem...
AH-64_Apache_extraction_exercise.jpg


800px-US_Army_AH-64_Apache_extraction_exercise.jpg
 
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The LinkedIn chat about this patent confirms -- it's related to 160th SOAR. And even the designer admits it's a nasty ride, especially over 80 knots.

www.linkedin.com

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Interesting to see that the full patent also includes a Stokes basket stretcher option.

US11753167B2 - Modular deployable external passenger system for aircraft - Google Patents

An embodiment is a system including an external passenger seating unit comprising at least one seat; and a translation mechanism for translating the external passenger seating unit between a first position in which the external passenger seating unit is stowed in a payload bay of an aircraft and...
patents.google.com
 
TomS said:
The LinkedIn chat about this patent confirms -- it's related to 160th SOAR. And even the designer admits it's a nasty ride, especially over 80 knots.

www.linkedin.com

Sign Up | LinkedIn

500 million+ members | Manage your professional identity. Build and engage with your professional network. Access knowledge, insights and opportunities.
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com

Interesting to see that the full patent also includes a Stokes basket stretcher option.

US11753167B2 - Modular deployable external passenger system for aircraft - Google Patents

An embodiment is a system including an external passenger seating unit comprising at least one seat; and a translation mechanism for translating the external passenger seating unit between a first position in which the external passenger seating unit is stowed in a payload bay of an aircraft and...
patents.google.com
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Likely to comply with a requirement.
 
BlackBat242 said:
Some smartass designer needs a <serious exhortation>
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Hey, tone it down with the rhetoric. There is rarely ever a single designer involved with programs such as this and mores, they do consult heavily with the end users. You will also find that there are likely to be multiple ex-service people even involved. Either way, threats of physical violence are not acceptable.
 
GTX said:
Hey, tone it down with the rhetoric. There is rarely ever a single designer involved with programs such as this and mores, they do consult heavily with the end users. You will also find that there are likely to be multiple ex-service people even involved. Either way, threats of physical violence are not acceptable.
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Speaking as a designer - usually we'll have looked at every possible option to meet the requirement, proposed several to the customer, and either they or the end user turns around and says that, actually, they'd rather just hang people off the side.

OK, I design ships and not aircraft, but I've had conversations that weren't entirely dissimilar. Very often, it's the designers and the end users teaming up to persuade the customer that just because something is cheap and proven doesn't mean it's actually good. On one occasion, I was running a meeting where the end user suggested that, if the customer thought a particular solution was acceptable (it wasn't!), then they should be the first ones to try it out.
 
Yellow Palace said:
Speaking as a designer - usually we'll have looked at every possible option to meet the requirement, proposed several to the customer, and either they or the end user turns around and says that, actually, they'd rather just hang people off the side.

OK, I design ships and not aircraft, but I've had conversations that weren't entirely dissimilar. Very often, it's the designers and the end users teaming up to persuade the customer that just because something is cheap and proven doesn't mean it's actually good. On one occasion, I was running a meeting where the end user suggested that, if the customer thought a particular solution was acceptable (it wasn't!), then they should be the first ones to try it out.
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That's usually a not-so-subtle hint to the customer that it's a really bad idea to do what they want.

The worst case of that I've heard of was at a machine shop. Owner's kid was brought in as a manager and wanted to have a machine double up, with the operator reaching into the machine while part of it was still in motion(!). Operator refused to do it, kid insisted it was safe, so the operator insisted that the kid show the operator how to do it safely. About 15 minutes later, the kid lost two fingers on one hand.
 
BlackBat242 said:
Some smartass designer needs a <serious exhortation> - because that is what he is setting up the poor sods that have to ride completely unprotected in that fuckup will face.

Not to mention losing hands, feet, etc to freezing during winter ops, and having their skin (and outer flesh) sand-blasted off in desert ops during take-off and landing - unless of course they have come up with heated/cooled battle armor that covers the entire body in a cold/sand-proof enclosure.
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An Iron Man suit is on SOCOM's wish list. Technology isn't quite there yet in terms of small hydraulics/artificial muscles (or a way to make the troops strong enough to be mobile with bulletproof armor like from the Deathworlders online novel).

Also, it's not like the troops riding inside a helicopter are particularly protected, most helicopter skin is 0.032"/0.75mm or even 0.020"/0.5mm thick!

Having the troops riding in the breeze has been done for a long time. There was a Medal of Honor just awarded September 5th for a Vietnam Cobra pilot extracting a LRRP team in very hot contact by having them grab onto whatever they could and hanging on for a short lift to the nearest US-occupied location. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dar...ietnam-veteran-medal-honor/story?id=102761360

The Little Birds have the riders hanging out in the breeze, because there's not enough space for 4-6 equipped grunts inside a Little Bird.
Israelis and Brits have had troops strap onto the sides of Apaches.
US troops riding in Hueys and Black Hawks usually ride sitting on the floor of the bay with their feet dangling.

So it's not all that weird, even though it looks unpleasant.
 

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