Avro Canada « Silver Bug » flying saucer (Project 1794)

Hi,

Can anyone identify this project by John Frost, please?
It is neither an Avro project Y "Spade" nor an Avro project Y-2 "Silverbug".
Could it be what the September 17, 1953 edition of the New York Times named "Project Omega"?
 

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It's only a personal opnion Justo , but I think
they are artist impressions based on rumors and
vague descriptions about the 'Spade ' project.
Last illustration appeared in the British 'Flying Saucer Review' magazine
in the mid fifties...
 
Yes, it's only not very accurate artist impression.

I must clear the things a bit, because we are mixing two independent projects. The first was Avro Omega with company identification "project Y" that later become the part of WS-606A. It is a tail-sitter. The second one - shown in this thread is Avro Silverbug (project Y2) that was transferred to US and then received the code MX-1794. It's a flat-riser.

Picture posted by Justo Miranda is related to Avro Omega (project Y). I attach some more artist impressions of it. More pics you can find here: http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/UFOpreprava3.htm
 

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i have terrible suspect : and if ufo that people have seen are these secret projects ? :eek:
 
the Most Famous UFO case

June 24. 1947 a pilot, Kenneth Arnold saw something he never saw before
index.php

Arnold report

index.php

AVRO Project Y

damm they look like twins

more on UFO in the Roswell crap show
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2816.0.html
 
Fascinating material -- posting the Silver Bug report much appreciated -- but I'm puzzled by the link being made between Avro's efforts and "MX-1794". The USAF records I'm familar with (and have provided to Andreas in tabular form) identify that number as being assigned to an "Omni-Bearing Distance Measuring System." Moreover, the chronology doesn't fit very well -- the MX system appears to have been abandoned in 1954, with perhaps MX-2276 as the last number issued by Wright-Patterson's Security Office. That puts MX-1794 in the 1952-53 timeframe -- too early for this study. But I'd very much like to hear more if there's info to be had by way of correction or explanation.

Geo.
 
Hi,

I have found the patent drawing. The “Omega” clearly is a pre-design of the “Spade”.
Sometimes it is difficult to classify the information!

Thanks to everyone for your help.
 

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MMm, now its obvious that this didn't lead to some sort of startling breakthrough in technology, otherwise the sky would be full of them. So, what laid low this interesting direction in aeronautics? Or have they been hiding them from me by painting them black and putting helicopter blades on top of them? :eek:
 
rickshaw said:
MMm, now its obvious that this didn't lead to some sort of startling breakthrough in technology, otherwise the sky would be full of them. So, what laid low this interesting direction in aeronautics? Or have they been hiding them from me by painting them black and putting helicopter blades on top of them? :eek:

;D
 
The simplest answer - too ambitious. Just see...

- multichamber rounded jet engine with afterburner
- max. speed Mach 2,6 (2750 km/h), Mach 3,48 (3680 km/h) with afterburner
- max. altitude 23 900 m, 26 900 m with afterburner
- climbing rate 107 m/s
- full VTOL characteristics

And that all at the time, when the most agile thing in the air was MiG-15!
 
Clioman said:
Fascinating material -- posting the Silver Bug report much appreciated -- but I'm puzzled by the link being made between Avro's efforts and "MX-1794". The USAF records I'm familar with (and have provided to Andreas in tabular form) identify that number as being assigned to an "Omni-Bearing Distance Measuring System." Moreover, the chronology doesn't fit very well -- the MX system appears to have been abandoned in 1954, with perhaps MX-2276 as the last number issued by Wright-Patterson's Security Office. That puts MX-1794 in the 1952-53 timeframe -- too early for this study. But I'd very much like to hear more if there's info to be had by way of correction or explanation.

Time to end this "MX-1794" myth ;)!

"Silver Bug" was Project 1794 (in whatever numerical "series", if any), but was never MX-1794! No original "Silver Bug" documentation I've seen (unfortunately, much of it went away, when the old "ufx.org" site vanished :( ) has ever prefixed the number with "MX".

I don't know the origins of the false "MX-1794", but most likely a careless author thought that every USAF project number in the 1950s was an "MX" number. The same error is sometimes made when referring to the X-15 project, numbered "Project 1226" at one time, as "MX-1226".
 
Might I suggest that anyone wanting the best available information on the Avro Canada saucer projects takes a look at Canada's Flying Saucer By Bill Zuk or the slightly more detailed Flying Saucer Aircraft By Tony Buttler and Bill Rose.

The Project Y aircraft clearly wasn't anything to do with the Arnold sighting.

I think you'll also find that the "Spade" design was actually called the Avro-Canada "Ace."
 
the Silber Bug PDF (see link)

called it with several name :

Silver Bug
PROJECT no. 9961
Project Y2 (Secret).

but not MX-1794
 
In his book , Bill Zuk mentions also the 'Omega' project.

from the text: ..essentially it was an interim design that was based
on Project Y and had not involved the vertical-rising
or VTOL approach, now a distinguishing feature of
all the later Project Y2 derivatives.

So far the author of Avrocar , Canada's Flying Saucers. page 47.
 
Is it possible that Project Omega was made up by the press?

I have seen documented references to MX1794 and my understanding is that the use of MX might have referred to the engine as this aircraft was nothing like the Y2 Silverbug and used a completely different turboramjet system.
 
Little project 1794 files out, now available to historians / researchers.


"However, the images here are from selected reports in just two boxes of this collection. The entire series is available for historians to research." source: Michael Rhodes, "How to build a FLYING SAUCER, 20 sept. 2012, (esp. "comments"2 oct 2012), http://blogs.archives.gov/ndc/?p=426
 

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antigravite said:
Little project 1794 files out, now available to historians / researchers.

...

Thanks for that. I just saw an article on this on the WIRED site:

Declassified at Last: Air Force’s Supersonic Flying Saucer Schematics
By Benjamin PlackettEmail AuthorOctober 5, 2012 | 1:42 pm | Categories: Air Force, Bizarro
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/10/the-airforce/


Bob Clark
 
Armed Forces Journal reported today that the USAF had declassified a report of plans to build a flying saucer. You can read the story at

http://www.armedforces-int.com/news/plans-to-build-a-flying-saucer-declassified.html?utm_source=09_10_12_NLAFI&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=09_10_12_NLAFI


This would become the Avro Avrocar. The 1956 report related to Project 1794 -- a proposed Mach 4 fighter with a ceiling of 100,000 feet and a range of about 1,000 nm.


I don't know how to post the pictures here.
 
Thx for this reference.


Previous posts on same subject down here:


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3235.0.html
 
Enjoy.


For all of us who are interested and intrigued by saucer type aircraft, here's something interesting. Not new but interesting though.


Most of project 1794 report now seem to having been released by the Air Force's declassification office on their dedicated website:


http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil


The press release reads as follows:


by Air Force Declassification Office

11/13/2012 - National Archives II -- This sampling of newly released saucer-type aircraft documents contain detailed technical data and drawings related to the work undertaken by AVRO Aircraft Limited for the Air Force under Project 1794. Project 1794 was interested in designing and testing a proposed supersonic vertical take-off and landing saucer type aircraft in 1957-58.


The Air Force Declassification Office declassified these documents in June 2001 and the National Declassification Center, National Archives, just recently approved them for public release. Below are direct links to four documents, or they can be found under the Aircraft tab on the main page.

And the corresponding source material (report links) is now below:

Project Planning Report Project 1794

http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-017.pdf

Project Planning Report Project 1794 Final Development Report
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-019.pdf

Special Projects Group Technical Report No. 112
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-024.pdf

Untitled Project 1794 Report
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-026.pdf
 
antigravite said:
Enjoy.


For all of us who are interested and intrigued by saucer type aircraft, here's something interesting. Not new but interesting though.


Most of project 1794 report now seem to having been released by the Air Force's declassification office on their dedicated website:


http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil


The press release reads as follows:


by Air Force Declassification Office

11/13/2012 - National Archives II -- This sampling of newly released saucer-type aircraft documents contain detailed technical data and drawings related to the work undertaken by AVRO Aircraft Limited for the Air Force under Project 1794. Project 1794 was interested in designing and testing a proposed supersonic vertical take-off and landing saucer type aircraft in 1957-58.


The Air Force Declassification Office declassified these documents in June 2001 and the National Declassification Center, National Archives, just recently approved them for public release. Below are direct links to four documents, or they can be found under the Aircraft tab on the main page.

And the corresponding source material (report links) is now below:

Project Planning Report Project 1794

http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-017.pdf

Project Planning Report Project 1794 Final Development Report
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-019.pdf

Special Projects Group Technical Report No. 112
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-024.pdf

Untitled Project 1794 Report
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-026.pdf

The links are dead.
 
sferrin said:
The links are dead.

Scott,

1°) After checking them, I find the links work perfectly.
2°) You don't need to quote 30 lines of text to reply in four words.
 
Links are not dead.
It just takes a long time to download. (Low or request-saturated bandwidth.)
These reports contain hundreds of artworks, illustrations, and pictures (e.g. wind tunnel test models, etc.)
So much to discover!

A.
 
Stargazer2006 said:
sferrin said:
The links are dead.

Scott,

1°) After checking them, I find the links work perfectly.
2°) You don't need to quote 30 lines of text to reply in four words.

1. Good for you. They work for me too - now. None worked yesterday when I posted the message.
2. I do if I want anybody to know which links weren't working.
 
sferrin said:
Stargazer2006 said:
2°) You don't need to quote 30 lines of text to reply in four words.

2. I do if I want anybody to know which links weren't working.

In that case this is what you needed in your quote:


See?
 
Stargazer2006 said:
sferrin said:
Stargazer2006 said:
2°) You don't need to quote 30 lines of text to reply in four words.

2. I do if I want anybody to know which links weren't working.

In that case this is what you needed in your quote:


See?

I'll be sure to write that down. ::)
 
Hi,


anther artist drawing to Avro Canada Project 1794,from Klassiker der
Luftfahrt magazine.
 

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Hi, interesting combination saucer+sub
 

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source: this book http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Projects-Flying-Saucer-Aircraft/dp/1857802330
 

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From Ali Nuove 6/1953.
 

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Hmmm, one of the rare ones of these that actually had a point (most just seem to be cargo cult responses to a shared delusion fueled by pop culture), it looks to me like the idea was to allow the use of an unusually large centrifugal compressor, something which would otherwise have made the engine too wide to be useful. Not a terrible idea, as it's my understanding centrifugal compressors are a lot cheaper for the same capability vs axial compressors, but I can't imagine the engine's gases love being pipes around so acutely. I also have to wonder if the torque from the compressor and turbine wheels would be enough to induce a gyroscopic roll during pitch rotations.

Probably the only one of these to really work would be the famous flying pancake, and that one was less of a flying saucer and more of an elliptical lifting body.
 
Much purposeful confusion about this project. The comical Avrocar was meant to show the Russians it couldn't be done. However, there were two projects with the same designation: Weapons System 606A. The second had the additional words Supersonic Application. See the book Secret Projects - Flying Saucer Aircraft by Bill Rose.
 
Hi, not sure if someone else posted this link, but the following is the link to the National Archives for the final report about Project 1794:

Project 1794 Final Development Summary Report

A lot of pictures/images, some in color, very interesting.
I would like to attach here the document (I personally do not like to give a link that in a couple of years could be dead), but the pdf file is 28.4 MB (140 pages).
Hoping that the NARA link would be stable, enjoy!
 
Last edited:
In October 1945 John Frost, the project engineer of the D.H. 108, decided to use the German technology of the Messerschmitt Me 163 swept wing fighter with the cooperation of several German technicians. One of them was Dr. Waldemar Voigt, chef designer of Messerschmitt-Oberammergau AG.

Frost also had access to the information on tip jet-driven rotor helicopters, radial flow gas turbines and the Flügelrad propulsion concept that had been captured in Europe by the British Intelligence Objectives Sub-committee (B.I.O.S.). The development of the powerful BMW-Bramo radial-flow turbojet was continued at the British National Gas Turbine establishment.

In 1947 Frost joined A.V. Roe Canada Company, as project designer of the Avro XC-100 all-weather fighter, only ten days before Kenneth Arnold’s UFO encounter.

Fascinated by reports of UFO sightings, Frost concluded that the German technology could be used to build a flying disc. Privately and with a group of friends, he started the design of the tip jet-driven rotor Gyrodyne based in the Feuerball concept and a disc-shaped aircraft powered by an integral pancake radial-flow turbojet based in the Kugelblitz concept.

Researcher Tim Mattews states in the book 'UFO revelation' that in 1951 A.V. Roe employed several German scientists including the chief designer of the Kugelblitz project, Dr. Heinrich Richard Miethe.

Late in 1951 Frost made a proposal for a proof-of-concept saucer-like flying vehicle. Early in 1952 the A.V. Roe Special Projects Group was formed to investigate the Frost ideas.

On February 7, 1952, the Group distributed an internal document titled ‘Description and Thoughts on the Turbo Disc’ (a simple gas turbine halfway between a ram-jet engine and centrifugal engine), Frost also submitted the design to the engineering department of McGill University.

The radial-flow turbojet designed by the Frost team had twenty feet of diameter, 42,000 lbf minimum thrust at low pressure and an outstanding power-to-weight ratio of 1.73 to 1.

The horizontal Pelton-wheel turbine had a large multi-stage centrifugal compressor with the rotor blades mounted on the inner disc ring and the stator blades in the outer disc ring. The separate combustion system consisted of several combustion chambers with individual burners and nozzle guide vanes distributed in a radial pattern between the ribs of the vehicle.

This work led to the first design named Omega project, with elliptical planform, 36 ft wingspan, 40 ft overall length and 1 to 7 aspect ratio. It was proposed to control the vehicle by altering the direction of thrust forces.

The vehicle had twenty air-intake slots mounted in the nose, the new pancake engine was designed as an integral part of the airframe and the jet thrust exited from around the entire rim of the engine.

About three-fifths of the jet exhaust flow through a multiple jet-pipe assembly that direct the flow of gases in a rearward direction from the sides of the airframe for propulsion and the remainder is ejected from the trailing edge through ten deflector vanes comprising elevons and trimmers providing control in yaw, roll and pitch.

The idea of a supersonic aircraft with short take-off and landing (STOL) capabilities was proposed by the Special Project Group in April 1952, in the document titled ‘Proposal for a Gas Turbine Propelled Aircraft of Circular Planform’.

A second design (Project-Y July 1, 1952), was a modified variant of the Omega concept with ‘D’ shaped planform and deflector vanes replaced by two extra flaps.

The air for the engine is drawn in through two forward-facing intakes on the upper and lower surfaces of the fuselage.

The unusual landing gear consisted in a 13.7 ft long telescopic strut ended in a double tyre boggie, a tail wheel and two bumpers mounted in the tips of the fish tail. In the ground the airplane sat at a 47-degree angle on its tail, this arrangement led to the aircraft being called Praying Mantis.

Their scalloped nozzles on the airframe sides directed the jet thrust rearwards for near vertical 75-degree STOL operation, after a short run.

Two glass panels under the cockpit floor allowed the pilot to see the ground during landing.

Two wind tunnel models, including one afterburning version, were tested between December 1952 and January 1953 at the Hawker Siddeley-Woolford facilities.

Project-Y technical data

Wingspan: 22.3 ft (6.8 m), length: 29 ft (8.8 m), height: 21.2 ft (6.5 m), estimated max speed: Mach 2.25, estimated ceiling: 65,000 ft (19,817 m), estimated range: 1,000 miles (1,609 Km).





On July 1952, the Special Projects Group issued the report: ‘Project Y: An All-wing Supersonic Airplane’. This third design (August 21, 1952) named Project Y-1, was a tail-sitter supersonic interceptor with vertical take-off and landing capabilities.

The mock-up had been completed late in 1952 and revealed in April 1953.

For VTOL operation the landing gear strut was replaced by two landing legs that extended out of the dorsal and ventral spines. The exhaust flaps were replaced by large slots next to the tail and the side jet exhaust were covered by aerodynamic fairings to save drag.

Yaw control was obtained by means of additional jet-thrusters mounted to both sides of a new pointed nose.

These modifications produced a shape like a spade on a playing card and the Project Y-1 being called Ace of Spades.

The new project should compete against the el British Avro 724 VTOL all-weather interceptor and the lack of an airborne interception radar of the Y-1 was considered unacceptable. At that time, the AI radar required a second crew member, and the mock-up was modified with a second ventral cockpit for one radar operator lying in prone position.

The Ace of Spades was inherently unstable due the control problems added by the gyroscopic effect caused by the considerable mass inertia of their multi-chamber radial flow engine. The problem required an electronic stabilization control system, something not available with the current technology, and the project was cancelled in March 1954 in favor of a VTOL gyroplane with flat-riser configuration named Project Y-2.

Project Y-1 technical data

Wingspan: 21 ft (6.4 m), length: 25.6 ft (7.8 m), airframe thickness: 5.08 ft (1.55 m), wing surface: 380 sq. ft (116 sq. m), estimated top speed: 1,500 mph (2,400 kph), 2,287 mph (3,680 kph) with afterburner, estimated ceiling: 100,000 ft (30,500 m), estimated range: 780 miles (1,255 km), estimated rate of climb: 100,000 ft/minute, proposed armament: four 20 mm cannons, one retractable pack of Mighty Mouse air-to-air unguided rockets or two de Havilland Blue Jay (Firestreak) air-to-air missiles with IR guidance system.



In March 1953 Frost met with the wartime German engineer George Klein, who had taken part in the development of the Flügelrad Projekt. The reunion took place at a Canadian Government Facility in West Germany.

On August 23, 1953 Frost patented the Air Cushion Effect and in June 1954 published the report ‘Project Y-2: Flat Vertical Take-off Gyroplane’ a proof-of-concept vehicle named Project P.724.

The Y-2 was a true flying saucer design powered by one radial flow gas turbine which utilizes compressed air as its only means of lubrication.

Their VTOL capability was achieved by ducting engine exhaust to the periphery of the disc and deflecting the air flow downwards by means of the Coanda Effect. For transition to forward flight, the air flow would be gradually redistributed backwards by means of trim flaps.

The proposed Avro Y-2 Project P.724 (Patent April 18, 1955) had 44 ft. (13.4 m) of diameter and 5.9 ft. (1.8 m) of height. A new proposed version (Patent May 9, 1955) with 49 ft. (14.97 m) of diameter and 6.9 ft. (2 m) height, was powered by eight radially mounted Armstrong-Siddeley ASM Viper 5 axial-flow turbojets with 1,900 lbs. thrust each.

During the Cold War, the jet airplanes needed extremely long runways and there were few in existence that could be used by the USAF from their high-performance defense fighters.

Brig. Gen. Benjamin Kelsey, deputy director of research and development of the Air Force, called for a VTOL supersonic interceptor that would have been based in underground facilities.

But all the VTOL tail-sitters of that time: Convair XFY-1 Pogo, Lockheed XFV-1 Salmon, Ryan X-13 Vertijet, Northrop N-63, Martin Model 262 and SNECMA Coléoptère experienced serious stability problems during transition from horizontal flight to the vertical landing.

The tail-sitter formula was not successful as a practical vertical flight control system could not be found.

On August 13, 1954, the U.S. Air Research and Development Command issued Technical Requirement TR Nº 3 for a project development plan for the Avro Project P.724, under the codename Ladybird.

On September 16, 1954 U.S. Defense experts, led by USAF General D.L. Putt, visited the Avro Canada plant, and were briefed on Project Y-2, a flat-riser fighter design being funded by Avro, with some assistance from Canadian Defense Research Board.

On December 29, 1954, the USAF took over funding for the Project Y-2, on February 15, 1955 the technical document Project Nº 9961was prepared by the Air Technical Intelligence Centre (ATIC) at Wright-Patterson AFB. This report presents factual technical data on a scaled-down variant of the Project Ladybird with 29.2 ft of diameter, 70,000 ft ceiling and Mach 3.48 capabilities.

On January 17, 1955, the USAF re-designated it as Project Silver Bug, a supersonic interceptor powered by one improved Orenda radial flow gas turbine, with both upper and forward-facing air intakes for VTOL and forward flight configurations.

The Silver Bug proposal incorporates several advanced improvements. The aircraft was controlled by regulating shutters which vary the amount of thrust through annular nozzles for pitch and roll control and through the peripheral backward facing nozzles for yaw control.

Silver Bug technical data

Diameter: 29.2 ft. (8.9 m), height: 3.75 ft. (1.14 m), wing surface: 670 sq. ft, aspect ratio: 1.27, max weight: 29,000 lbs., thrust/weight ratio: 1.73, estimated max speed: 1,720 mph (2,300 kph) with afterburners, estimated ceiling: 80,600 ft, estimated time to 70,000 ft: 4.2 min, estimated range: 620 miles, proposed armament: four 20 mm cannons.
 

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