Avro Canada « Silver Bug » flying saucer (Project 1794)

[Michel Van]

i found a PDF with The declassified 1955 report on
the Avro "Silverbug" Flying saucer
aka The MX-1794 Silverbug

http://www.ufodna.com/graphics/silverbu.pdf

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi,

Can anyone identify this project by John Frost, please?
It is neither an Avro project Y "Spade" nor an Avro project Y-2 "Silverbug".
Could it be what the September 17, 1953 edition of the New York Times named "Project Omega"?

 

[lark]

It's only a personal opnion Justo , but I think
they are artist impressions based on rumors and
vague descriptions about the 'Spade ' project.
Last illustration appeared in the British 'Flying Saucer Review' magazine
in the mid fifties...

 

[Matej]

Yes, it's only not very accurate artist impression.

I must clear the things a bit, because we are mixing two independent projects. The first was Avro Omega with company identification "project Y" that later become the part of WS-606A. It is a tail-sitter. The second one - shown in this thread is Avro Silverbug (project Y2) that was transferred to US and then received the code MX-1794. It's a flat-riser.

Picture posted by Justo Miranda is related to Avro Omega (project Y). I attach some more artist impressions of it. More pics you can find here: http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/UFOpreprava3.htm

 

[airman]

i have terrible suspect : and if ufo that people have seen are these secret projects ?

 

[Michel Van]

the Most Famous UFO case

June 24. 1947 a pilot, Kenneth Arnold saw something he never saw before

Arnold report

AVRO Project Y

damm they look like twins

more on UFO in the Roswell crap show
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2816.0.html

 

[Clioman]

Fascinating material -- posting the Silver Bug report much appreciated -- but I'm puzzled by the link being made between Avro's efforts and "MX-1794". The USAF records I'm familar with (and have provided to Andreas in tabular form) identify that number as being assigned to an "Omni-Bearing Distance Measuring System." Moreover, the chronology doesn't fit very well -- the MX system appears to have been abandoned in 1954, with perhaps MX-2276 as the last number issued by Wright-Patterson's Security Office. That puts MX-1794 in the 1952-53 timeframe -- too early for this study. But I'd very much like to hear more if there's info to be had by way of correction or explanation.

Geo.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi,

I have found the patent drawing. The “Omega” clearly is a pre-design of the “Spade”.
Sometimes it is difficult to classify the information!

Thanks to everyone for your help.

 

[Kadija_Man]

MMm, now its obvious that this didn't lead to some sort of startling breakthrough in technology, otherwise the sky would be full of them. So, what laid low this interesting direction in aeronautics? Or have they been hiding them from me by painting them black and putting helicopter blades on top of them?

 

[Avimimus]

MMm, now its obvious that this didn't lead to some sort of startling breakthrough in technology, otherwise the sky would be full of them. So, what laid low this interesting direction in aeronautics? Or have they been hiding them from me by painting them black and putting helicopter blades on top of them?

;D

 

[Matej]

The simplest answer - too ambitious. Just see...

- multichamber rounded jet engine with afterburner
- max. speed Mach 2,6 (2750 km/h), Mach 3,48 (3680 km/h) with afterburner
- max. altitude 23 900 m, 26 900 m with afterburner
- climbing rate 107 m/s
- full VTOL characteristics

And that all at the time, when the most agile thing in the air was MiG-15!

 

[Andreas Parsch]

Fascinating material -- posting the Silver Bug report much appreciated -- but I'm puzzled by the link being made between Avro's efforts and "MX-1794". The USAF records I'm familar with (and have provided to Andreas in tabular form) identify that number as being assigned to an "Omni-Bearing Distance Measuring System." Moreover, the chronology doesn't fit very well -- the MX system appears to have been abandoned in 1954, with perhaps MX-2276 as the last number issued by Wright-Patterson's Security Office. That puts MX-1794 in the 1952-53 timeframe -- too early for this study. But I'd very much like to hear more if there's info to be had by way of correction or explanation.

Time to end this "MX-1794" myth !

"Silver Bug" was Project 1794 (in whatever numerical "series", if any), but was never MX-1794! No original "Silver Bug" documentation I've seen (unfortunately, much of it went away, when the old "ufx.org" site vanished ) has ever prefixed the number with "MX".

I don't know the origins of the false "MX-1794", but most likely a careless author thought that every USAF project number in the 1950s was an "MX" number. The same error is sometimes made when referring to the X-15 project, numbered "Project 1226" at one time, as "MX-1226".

 

[Stormbreaker]

Might I suggest that anyone wanting the best available information on the Avro Canada saucer projects takes a look at Canada's Flying Saucer By Bill Zuk or the slightly more detailed Flying Saucer Aircraft By Tony Buttler and Bill Rose.

The Project Y aircraft clearly wasn't anything to do with the Arnold sighting.

I think you'll also find that the "Spade" design was actually called the Avro-Canada "Ace."

 

[Michel Van]

the Silber Bug PDF (see link)

called it with several name :

Silver Bug
PROJECT no. 9961
Project Y2 (Secret).

but not MX-1794

 

[lark]

In his book , Bill Zuk mentions also the 'Omega' project.

from the text: ..essentially it was an interim design that was based
on Project Y and had not involved the vertical-rising
or VTOL approach, now a distinguishing feature of
all the later Project Y2 derivatives.

So far the author of Avrocar , Canada's Flying Saucers. page 47.

 

[Stormbreaker]

Is it possible that Project Omega was made up by the press?

I have seen documented references to MX1794 and my understanding is that the use of MX might have referred to the engine as this aircraft was nothing like the Y2 Silverbug and used a completely different turboramjet system.

 

[antigravite]

Little project 1794 files out, now available to historians / researchers.


"However, the images here are from selected reports in just two boxes of this collection. The entire series is available for historians to research." source: Michael Rhodes, "How to build a FLYING SAUCER, 20 sept. 2012, (esp. "comments"2 oct 2012), http://blogs.archives.gov/ndc/?p=426

 

[RGClark]

Little project 1794 files out, now available to historians / researchers.

...

Thanks for that. I just saw an article on this on the WIRED site:

Declassified at Last: Air Force’s Supersonic Flying Saucer Schematics
By Benjamin PlackettEmail AuthorOctober 5, 2012 | 1:42 pm | Categories: Air Force, Bizarro
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/10/the-airforce/


Bob Clark

 

[antigravite]

Enjoy.


For all of us who are interested and intrigued by saucer type aircraft, here's something interesting. Not new but interesting though.


Most of project 1794 report now seem to having been released by the Air Force's declassification office on their dedicated website:


http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil


The press release reads as follows:


by Air Force Declassification Office

11/13/2012 - National Archives II -- This sampling of newly released saucer-type aircraft documents contain detailed technical data and drawings related to the work undertaken by AVRO Aircraft Limited for the Air Force under Project 1794. Project 1794 was interested in designing and testing a proposed supersonic vertical take-off and landing saucer type aircraft in 1957-58.


The Air Force Declassification Office declassified these documents in June 2001 and the National Declassification Center, National Archives, just recently approved them for public release. Below are direct links to four documents, or they can be found under the Aircraft tab on the main page.

And the corresponding source material (report links) is now below:

Project Planning Report Project 1794
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-017.pdf

Project Planning Report Project 1794 Final Development Report
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-019.pdf

Special Projects Group Technical Report No. 112
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-024.pdf

Untitled Project 1794 Report
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-026.pdf

 

[sferrin]

Enjoy.


For all of us who are interested and intrigued by saucer type aircraft, here's something interesting. Not new but interesting though.


Most of project 1794 report now seem to having been released by the Air Force's declassification office on their dedicated website:


http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil


The press release reads as follows:


by Air Force Declassification Office

11/13/2012 - National Archives II -- This sampling of newly released saucer-type aircraft documents contain detailed technical data and drawings related to the work undertaken by AVRO Aircraft Limited for the Air Force under Project 1794. Project 1794 was interested in designing and testing a proposed supersonic vertical take-off and landing saucer type aircraft in 1957-58.


The Air Force Declassification Office declassified these documents in June 2001 and the National Declassification Center, National Archives, just recently approved them for public release. Below are direct links to four documents, or they can be found under the Aircraft tab on the main page.

And the corresponding source material (report links) is now below:

Project Planning Report Project 1794
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-017.pdf

Project Planning Report Project 1794 Final Development Report
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-019.pdf

Special Projects Group Technical Report No. 112
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-024.pdf

Untitled Project 1794 Report
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-026.pdf

The links are dead.

 

[Stargazer2006]

The links are dead.

Scott,

1°) After checking them, I find the links work perfectly.
2°) You don't need to quote 30 lines of text to reply in four words.

 

[Johnbr]

Great find.

 

[antigravite]

Links are not dead.
It just takes a long time to download. (Low or request-saturated bandwidth.)
These reports contain hundreds of artworks, illustrations, and pictures (e.g. wind tunnel test models, etc.)
So much to discover!

A.

 

[sferrin]

The links are dead.

Scott,

1°) After checking them, I find the links work perfectly.
2°) You don't need to quote 30 lines of text to reply in four words.

1. Good for you. They work for me too - now. None worked yesterday when I posted the message.
2. I do if I want anybody to know which links weren't working.

 

[Stargazer2006]

2°) You don't need to quote 30 lines of text to reply in four words.

2. I do if I want anybody to know which links weren't working.

In that case this is what you needed in your quote:

Most of project 1794 report now seem to having been released by the Air Force's declassification office on their dedicated website:
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil

And the corresponding source material (report links) is now below:
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-017.pdf
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-019.pdf
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-024.pdf
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-026.pdf

The links are dead.

See?

 

[sferrin]

2°) You don't need to quote 30 lines of text to reply in four words.

2. I do if I want anybody to know which links weren't working.

In that case this is what you needed in your quote:

Most of project 1794 report now seem to having been released by the Air Force's declassification office on their dedicated website:
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil

And the corresponding source material (report links) is now below:
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-017.pdf
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-019.pdf
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-024.pdf
http://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-121113-026.pdf

The links are dead.

See?

I'll be sure to write that down. :

 

[hesham]

Hi,


anther artist drawing to Avro Canada Project 1794,from Klassiker der
Luftfahrt magazine.

 

[antigravite]

Great find! Thanks!



A.

 

[Vladimir]

Hi, interesting combination saucer+sub

 

[bigvlada]

Hi, interesting combination saucer+sub

What's the source for this?

 

[Vladimir]

source: this book http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Projects-Flying-Saucer-Aircraft/dp/1857802330

 

[hesham]

From Ali Nuove 6/1953.

 

[Phos]

Hmmm, one of the rare ones of these that actually had a point (most just seem to be cargo cult responses to a shared delusion fueled by pop culture), it looks to me like the idea was to allow the use of an unusually large centrifugal compressor, something which would otherwise have made the engine too wide to be useful. Not a terrible idea, as it's my understanding centrifugal compressors are a lot cheaper for the same capability vs axial compressors, but I can't imagine the engine's gases love being pipes around so acutely. I also have to wonder if the torque from the compressor and turbine wheels would be enough to induce a gyroscopic roll during pitch rotations.

Probably the only one of these to really work would be the famous flying pancake, and that one was less of a flying saucer and more of an elliptical lifting body.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Interesting though possibly a bit flawed take on Project 1794.

 

[edwest]

Much purposeful confusion about this project. The comical Avrocar was meant to show the Russians it couldn't be done. However, there were two projects with the same designation: Weapons System 606A. The second had the additional words Supersonic Application. See the book Secret Projects - Flying Saucer Aircraft by Bill Rose.

 

[Temistocle]

Hi, not sure if someone else posted this link, but the following is the link to the National Archives for the final report about Project 1794:

Project 1794 Final Development Summary Report

A lot of pictures/images, some in color, very interesting.
I would like to attach here the document (I personally do not like to give a link that in a couple of years could be dead), but the pdf file is 28.4 MB (140 pages).
Hoping that the NARA link would be stable, enjoy!