ATK and H&K XM29 OICW (Objective Individual Combat Weapon)

[Triton]

The XM29 OICW was a series of prototypes for the US Army Objective Individual Combat Weapon program manufactured by Alliant Techsystems (ATK) and subcontractor Heckler & Koch.

The most commonly seen version of the XM29 consisted of a semi-automatic 20 mm smart grenade launcher, an underslung assault carbine (derived from the HK G36 then in its late developmental stage) firing a standard 5.56x45mm NATO round, and a top-mounted computer-assisted sighting system with integrated laser rangefinder, thermal vision night vision capabilities, and up to 6x optical telescopic sight.

The XM29 OICW would evolve into the H&K XM8 Lightweight Modular Weapon System (canceled in 2005) and the H&K XM25 Individual Airburst Weapon System.

It was also known as the XM29 SABR (Selectable Assault Battle Rifle).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OICW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM29_SABR

 

[Punnyabrata]

Why was the programs shelved? Did the Americans adopt a better platform?

 

[Grey Havoc]

Why was the programs shelved? Did the Americans adopt a better platform?

A mixture of politics (particularly in the form of a certain Mr. Rumsfeld) and technical/budgetary problems, although it was far from unknown for the latter to be exaggerated by the former, for example that infamous study which claimed that 20mm wasn't up to the job of dealing with the enemy effectively and that a weapon using Rumsfeld's preferred 25mm should be adopted instead...

Needless to say, that study wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

 

[RanulfC]

Why was the programs shelved? Did the Americans adopt a better platform?

A mixture of politics (particularly in the form of a certain Mr. Rumsfeld) and technical/budgetary problems, although it was far from unknown for the latter to be exaggerated by the former, for example that infamous study which claimed that 20mm wasn't up to the job of dealing with the enemy effectively and that a weapon using Rumsfeld's preferred 25mm should be adopted instead...

Needless to say, that study wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

There were actually weight and handling issue with the weapon, (note the use of the magazine well as a 'grip' in most photos) but nothing significantly "wrong" with the weapon itself. If "they" can get the weight and bulk issues under control, (look at a photo of a soliders "kit" and imagine having to hang about a dozen of the 20/25mm grenade mags somewhere as well) its pretty much a "given" at this time that "something" like it will be the future weapons system.

Well I SHOULD point out that with all these "future" weapons systems there still remains the issues with the "interface" of technology and solider which is ALSO a big 'issue' thats keeping them from adoption at this time. "Point-and-Kill" and "Voice" controls have worked fine under lab and field testing conditions but even under "simulated" combat conditions they tend to break down. High adrenalin, fear, physical activity, and stress levels tend to make what seems to be a "no-brainer" interface suddenly a lot harder to use as well as less forgiving of errors. None of the problems are unsolvable and in time solutions will be found, but no one REALLY wants to make major changes in weapons types or combat doctrines that they don't have to. You especially do NOT want to have a "blue-screen-of-death" issue that only shows up when troops are in combat!

Randy

 

[Tony Williams]

The inability to get down to the target weight was the official reason for cancellation: the XM25 successor omits the 5.56mm carbine element as a result.

Interestingly, South Korea has in service the K-11, which is also a 20mm grenade launcher+5.56mm carbine combination with a smart sighting system for firing airburst ammo. The most obvious difference from the XM29 is that the grenade launcher is bolt-action rather than semi-auto.

China also has a 20mm grenade launcher+5.8mm carbine combo, although apart from a few photos not much is known about it.

The problem the XM25 will face is that shoulder-fired 40mm grenade systems are now available using the same technology, and also in three different power bands (LV, LVER, MV) giving a choice of maximum range.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Well I SHOULD point out that with all these "future" weapons systems there still remains the issues with the "interface" of technology and solider which is ALSO a big 'issue' thats keeping them from adoption at this time. "Point-and-Kill" and "Voice" controls have worked fine under lab and field testing conditions but even under "simulated" combat conditions they tend to break down. High adrenalin, fear, physical activity, and stress levels tend to make what seems to be a "no-brainer" interface suddenly a lot harder to use as well as less forgiving of errors. None of the problems are unsolvable and in time solutions will be found, but no one REALLY wants to make major changes in weapons types or combat doctrines that they don't have to. You especially do NOT want to have a "blue-screen-of-death" issue that only shows up when troops are in combat!

Solution has already been found – in Australia – with the Kord Defence SmartGrip RIC. This uses the same principals as playing a guitar with a chord interface of five buttons integrated into a grip.

http://kord.businesscatalyst.com/New%20Brochures%20Dec%202011/SmartGripRIC%20-%20Product%20Brochure.pdf

This enables the soldier to hold his rifle in a conventional manner and yet still ‘type’ in controls for any number of computerised accessories. Suddenly those guitar lessons as a 15 year old to try and impress girls now have military potential.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The problem the XM25 will face is that shoulder-fired 40mm grenade systems are now available using the same technology, and also in three different power bands (LV, LVER, MV) giving a choice of maximum range.

These weapons and the Korean bolt action all leverage the advances in digital fire control that the OCIW and XM25 pioneered. But none of them have the benefit of a quick follow up shoot thanks to a semi-automatic weapon. The ability to adjust fire right after a missed shot will enable a considerable boost to lethality of personal grenade weapons. Of course there is a weapon which already provides this: the Milkor 40mm MGL.

 

[Avimimus]

Abraham - would a two barrel grenade launcher work for that purpose?

The biggest issue I see with improving grenade launcher performance is muzzle velocity (travel time limits range even more than ballistics do). It'd be interesting to discuss projects aimed at higher velocity grenades (possibly in another thread).

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Abraham - would a two barrel grenade launcher work for that purpose?

Yep which is the reason there are double barrel shotguns for bird hunting. That’s a very good idea so good no one has come up with it!

The biggest issue I see with improving grenade launcher performance is muzzle velocity (travel time limits range even more than ballistics do). It'd be interesting to discuss projects aimed at higher velocity grenades (possibly in another thread).

The 25mm grenade of the XM25 has a lot more velocity than 40mm grenades. There has been some effort at pushing up the velocity of 40mm grenades to the upper limit of what a human can handle. The Australian AICW demonstrator messed with a recoil absorbing spring as well.

But some argue that too much velocity like on a 25mm grenade is a bad thing. Because you lose the lobbed shot high angle potential of 40mm grenades. Also it isn’t MV that is letting down accuracy but basic intangibles. Digital FCS with laser range finding are going to put the grenade pretty much where you are aiming for it. But in a number of situations you are going to have wind and aiming error still come into play. Which is why the quick follow up shot using adjust fire is such an important thing even with a digital FCS.

Personally I think the MGL provides pretty much all the capability you need for a grenade launcher. If a 'bullet firing bayonet' for self defence is so important then didn't the mount Uzis on the front of them in Diehard or some mountain climbing movie? Though why the soldier just could use the 40mm grenade for self defence is beyond me.

 

[Orionblamblam]

9mm and 12 gauge rather than 5.56mm and 20mm, but this weapon made by a small shop shows that the basic principle should be a lot easier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HufACX1GepM

 

[Rickshaw]

As the video shows, the pump action requires considerable effort and appears rather prone to stoppages.

I'd also question the utility of a 9mm/12 Gauge weapon. It'd be fine for civilian uses but what civilian needs such a double weapon? The range of both calibres is rather effective on the battlefield.

As for a 5.56mm & 20/25mm combination, I question the utility. I'd rather have an effective, semi-automatic grenade launcher by itself which is reliable and of low enough mass to make it easily carried by most soldiers. These combination weapons are only going to be carried by a minority of soldiers who are both big enough and strong to hump them around. Have two separate weapons, one GL in each fireteam is sufficient.

 

[Tony Williams]

The ability to adjust fire right after a missed shot will enable a considerable boost to lethality of personal grenade weapons. Of course there is a weapon which already provides this: the Milkor 40mm MGL.

There are a few 40mm six-shot revolvers around apart from the Milkor, but yes, at the moment these are the only rapid-firing shoulder-fired grenade launchers in military service.

However, Rheinmetall is developing the semi-auto Hydra which can handle 40mm LV, LVER and MV. They even claim it will be capable of burst fire, although heaven knows why anyone would want that.

Abraham - would a two barrel grenade launcher work for that purpose?

Yep which is the reason there are double barrel shotguns for bird hunting. That’s a very good idea so good no one has come up with it!

There is one exception I know of: the Sage Control Ordnance Deuce, an over-and-under available in 37mm and 40x46. They also offer the semi-auto BL37, but so far in the less-lethal 37mm calibre only: http://www.sageinternationalltd.com/SCOI/specs/SCOI_SpecSheet_BML37.pdf

I've always thought that the Metal Storm principle would work well in a double-barrelled MV launcher, but they've gone into administration last I'd heard. Some thoughts on it: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/MetalStorm.htm

 

[RanulfC]

As the video shows, the pump action requires considerable effort and appears rather prone to stoppages.

In its defense the guy shooting it was never give a chance to dry rack the pump and had no idea how much or little effort was required. He got it on the last shot. The shotty/GL trigger on that rifle always bothered me anyway because it was so akward to use.

I'd also question the utility of a 9mm/12 Gauge weapon. It'd be fine for civilian uses but what civilian needs such a double weapon? The range of both calibres is rather effective on the battlefield.

Well it is "supposed" to be: "100 round magazine loaded with 10x24mm, explosive tip, caseless, light armor-piercing rounds, and is fitted with an underslung pump-action 4 shot 20mm grenade launcher" so "battlefield" effectiveness would be somewhat enhanced I suppose

And especially in this weapons case the "need" is basically to have a fireing movie replica.

As for a 5.56mm & 20/25mm combination, I question the utility. I'd rather have an effective, semi-automatic grenade launcher by itself which is reliable and of low enough mass to make it easily carried by most soldiers. These combination weapons are only going to be carried by a minority of soldiers who are both big enough and strong to hump them around. Have two separate weapons, one GL in each fireteam is sufficient.

As I understand the thinking it is to give each individual soldier more control over more options for firepower in any given situation. As you note though the size issue is a major sticking point.

Randy

 

[Avimimus]

I'd also question the utility of a 9mm/12 Gauge weapon. It'd be fine for civilian uses but what civilian needs such a double weapon? The range of both calibres is rather effective on the battlefield.

Well, not in semi-automatic form (but what civilian needs a semi-automatic? IMHO, if you have a semi-automatic with more than a 4-round magazine your a paramilitary militiaman):
http://www.hoferwaffen.com/hofer_52s.php?id=18&lang=de

A Bockdrilling is an attractive hunting weapon. It allows use of shot against fowl, the smaller caliber barrel saves cost on small game, and having a double rifle allows for a follow-up shot against large game. The whole gun can be made lighter than a typical rifle and the break-action means that it is less effective for rampage style massacres. Of course - they cost more due to the fine machining. You also have to get in close or be a very good shot to use both barrels at the same time.

 

[Brickmuppet]

if you have a semi-automatic with more than a 4-round magazine your a paramilitary militiaman):

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Back on topic.

This arrangement could in theory, have 2 good applications, one civilian one military.
For home defense the shotgun is a decent weapon, but doesn't carry near enough shots and of course gives you the spread of a shotgun.
The drilling layout gives 50 rounds of pistol caliber ammo for aimed shots and four shotgun shots. Just what the doctor ordered for dealing with an LA Riot type situation, a bunch of Klansmen coming to burn down your house, gay-bashers or proselytizers with meat cleavers.

For the military I see this as a very serviceable Coast Guard boarding weapon or general Close Quarters weapon. Shotguns are decent closequarters weapons and slugs are good at opening doors, while the pistol ammo gives a larger number of rounds and in a military situation, a full auto capability plus potential ammo compatibility with the sidearms.

For both of these he lack of range from the pistol caliber ammo would be a feature and not a bug. In fact I'd actually be inclined to chamber the thing for .40 S&W or .45 ACP because of their reduced penetration and (arguable) increased stopping power.

There is one important caveat for the civilian version. Even semiautomatic rifles in the USA have to have barrels no shorter than 16 inches and shotguns 18 inches (and I assume this is worse elsewhere) so a civilian legal version of this concept would likely be quite awkward for home defense without at least the shotgun portion being a bullpup.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I'd also question the utility of a 9mm/12 Gauge weapon. It'd be fine for civilian uses but what civilian needs such a double weapon?

I do.

Well, not in semi-automatic form (but what civilian needs a semi-automatic?

Agreed. Civilians should have full-auto weapons (preferably, select fire). Police forces should be restricted to semi-auto.

IMHO, if you have a semi-automatic with more than a 4-round magazine your a paramilitary militiaman)

Definition of "militia:"

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

So... gimme my frackin' pulse rifle.

 

[Orionblamblam]

As the video shows, the pump action requires considerable effort and appears rather prone to stoppages.

It was a one-off gun made as a lark, operated by someone with no experience on the weapon. I would imagine things would go much more smoothly once the weapon was perfected.

 

[Rickshaw]

I'd also question the utility of a 9mm/12 Gauge weapon. It'd be fine for civilian uses but what civilian needs such a double weapon?

I do.

Things must be pretty hairy in Utah then. :

 

[Rickshaw]

As the video shows, the pump action requires considerable effort and appears rather prone to stoppages.

It was a one-off gun made as a lark, operated by someone with no experience on the weapon. I would imagine things would go much more smoothly once the weapon was perfected.

I rather think that proves my point. If a novice can't use it, then you're going to face quite a few problems with it's use on the battlefield - an environment which can be rather unforgiving of delicate weapons like that one.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Things must be pretty hairy in Utah then. :

Yup. Gun ranges everywhere.

 

[Orionblamblam]

It was a one-off gun made as a lark, operated by someone with no experience on the weapon. I would imagine things would go much more smoothly once the weapon was perfected.

I rather think that proves my point. If a novice can't use it, then you're going to face quite a few problems with it's use on the battlefield - an environment which can be rather unforgiving of delicate weapons like that one.

That's... almost entirely wrong.
1) Prototype proof-of-concept weapons often have quirks.
2) soliers tend to require training. If someone stuck an OICW in your hands, would you be able to fully and properly operate it instantly, without training? Would you be able to operate somethign as simple as an AK-47 without a few minutes direction?
3) Shotguns are hardly "delicate." Pump action shotguns have been used with great success on battlefields for more than a century, from jungles to swamps to trenches to deserts.

Of course, pump-guns aren't the only solution. One solution is to mate a shortened autoloader shotgun:

It's a bit cumbersome, obviously, but looks less so than the OICW.

And a 12 gauge is perfectly capable of launching grenades:

What such a system would be missing is the electronics. But electronics constantly shrink. Wouldn't surprise me is someone couldn't turn the needs of an OIcW into a smart phone app. Bluetooth connect the optics to the smart phone to the small electronics package in the shotgun, and away you go.

 

[GTX]

Wouldn't surprise me is someone couldn't turn the needs of an OIcW into a smart phone app. Bluetooth connect the optics to the smart phone to the small electronics package in the shotgun, and away you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BakaFvUWiiI

 

[GTX]

Alternatively, you could use this ;D :

 

[Rickshaw]

Things must be pretty hairy in Utah then. :

Yup. Gun ranges everywhere.

Yeah, really hairy... :

 

[Rickshaw]

It was a one-off gun made as a lark, operated by someone with no experience on the weapon. I would imagine things would go much more smoothly once the weapon was perfected.

I rather think that proves my point. If a novice can't use it, then you're going to face quite a few problems with it's use on the battlefield - an environment which can be rather unforgiving of delicate weapons like that one.

That's... almost entirely wrong.
1) Prototype proof-of-concept weapons often have quirks.

So do weapons which are pointless. Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JypmM008A-I

2) soliers tend to require training. If someone stuck an OICW in your hands, would you be able to fully and properly operate it instantly, without training? Would you be able to operate somethign as simple as an AK-47 without a few minutes direction?

"Load! Action! Instant! Go on, [x] rounds, in your own time!" Worked for me across many different weapons.

3) Shotguns are hardly "delicate." Pump action shotguns have been used with great success on battlefields for more than a century, from jungles to swamps to trenches to deserts.

Pump action shotguns fit into a very grey area legally on the battlefield. The Hague Conventions can be interpreted to make them illegal and are so, by quite a few Western nations. As weapons, they tend to be fairly delicate and prone to stoppages due to the ingestion of foreign matter such as dust or mud. Their short range renders them only useful in Jungle or other close quarters' fighting. Out in the mountains of Afghanistan or the plains of Iraq, their value is quite limited. They are not the panacea you're attempting to claim.

 

[Tony Williams]

Pump action shotguns fit into a very grey area legally on the battlefield. The Hague Conventions can be interpreted to make them illegal and are so, by quite a few Western nations. As weapons, they tend to be fairly delicate and prone to stoppages due to the ingestion of foreign matter such as dust or mud. Their short range renders them only useful in Jungle or other close quarters' fighting. Out in the mountains of Afghanistan or the plains of Iraq, their value is quite limited. They are not the panacea you're attempting to claim.

A few years ago the British Army adopted a shotgun (a semi-auto Benelli), possibly for the first time. They needed it mainly for soldiers on guard duty in urban areas, to obtain reliable short-range stopping power. The ammo used is buckshot and magnum slugs. I've fired one, and the slugs really have a kick. The British are particularly careful about the Geneva Conventions, but seem to have no problem with this.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Pump action shotguns fit into a very grey area legally on the battlefield. The Hague Conventions can be interpreted to make them illegal and are so, by quite a few Western nations.

Ahh no. The Germans protested the American use of shotgun ammunition (shot shells with 5-10 pellets per round) in 1918 as being illegal because they caused “excessive suffering”. This protest was never upheld in any international court nor supported by anyone else. Today even the German Army has shotguns on issue.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Ahh no. The Germans protested the American use of shotgun ammunition (shot shells with 5-10 pellets per round) in 1918 as being illegal because they caused “excessive suffering”.

Remember, this protest was by people who were using land mines, flame throwers, poison gas, machine guns and trench warfare.

The only reason why the Germans were PO'ed at the American use of shotguns was because the things *worked.* In an era before submachine guns were common, and before semi-auto rifles were practical, a pump action shotgun was a fine way to lay waste to a trench full of soldiers wearing leather helmets.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Things must be pretty hairy in Utah then. :

Yup. Gun ranges everywhere.

Yeah, really hairy... :

I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that you think rights are contingent upon external conditions.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Pump action shotguns fit into a very grey area legally on the battlefield.

As pointed out elsewhere... no, they don't.

The Hague Conventions can be interpreted to make them illegal...

No more so than a submachinegun.

Their short range renders them only useful in Jungle or other close quarters' fighting. Out in the mountains of Afghanistan or the plains of Iraq, their value is quite limited.

So? We're talking about grenade launchers here. In any event, door-to-door urban fighting with Barret .50 BMG sniper rifles and anti-aircraft rockets would be rather ridiculous, so those should be done away with as well, yes?

They are not the panacea you're attempting to claim.

You know who suggested that shotguns are panaceas? Nobody, that's who. So who are you arguing with, and why?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Things must be pretty hairy in Utah then.

I know this is OT but this thread seems to have spiralled ultra OT with shotgun politics, Hollywood prop weapons, etc. But anyone mentions conditions in Utah then that is an intro to Jon Safran’s (Australian comedian) hilarious atheist missionary door knocking in Salt Lake City:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U58wgn-9Y3c

 

[Brickmuppet]

Regards the OICW itself: I seem to recall that the AAI entrant (pictured) was considerably lighter but was rejected. Does anyone know what it's failings were?

Also, does anyone know how the Korean K-11 (which is very similar in concept) has performed?
http://world.guns.ru/assault/skor/daewoo-k11-e.html

 

[Grey Havoc]

 

[Bruno Anthony]

US Army Infantry School Small Arms Strategy 2000.
Study that led to OICW

https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimedia/993673/20184248MN002636_Final.pdf

 

[Cjc]

Why was the programs shelved? Did the Americans adopt a better platform?

A mixture of politics (particularly in the form of a certain Mr. Rumsfeld) and technical/budgetary problems, although it was far from unknown for the latter to be exaggerated by the former, for example that infamous study which claimed that 20mm wasn't up to the job of dealing with the enemy effectively and that a weapon using Rumsfeld's preferred 25mm should be adopted instead...

Needless to say, that study wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

Could you provide more info on that because I've heard a lot about how both the 20mm and 25mm don't have enough explosive payload, so I'm interested if that's not actually the case.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

With all of the miniaturization done I'm surprised the 25mm can't be made lethal enough. Admittedly the proliferation of modern body armor complicates things but there is still a significant amount of body area exposed by a typical setup a soldier would be wearing.

Supposedly the justification for cancelling XM25 orders came down to H&K failing to meet some schedule. Considering how in the past such delays were acceptable I get the sense the Army was looking for an excuse to cancel it. A really quiet ending for what was hyped as the future of the infantryman's weapon for decades.

 

[totallyaverage]

Supposedly the justification for cancelling XM25 orders came down to H&K failing to meet some schedule. Considering how in the past such delays were acceptable I get the sense the Army was looking for an excuse to cancel it. A really quiet ending for what was hyped as the future of the infantryman's weapon for decades.

H&K wasn't behind schedule, they were refusing to deliver contracted weapons to ATK, the prime contractor. ATK eventually terminated the contract and filed suit, later settling out of court.

The Army ultimately terminated ATK's contract, and later the whole program. However, they did come to an agreement with ATK to receive all remaining prototypes and the entire technical data package. Which means that the Army could revive the program at any time.

There has been at least one RFI for a Precision Grenadier System since 2018, probably more. Nothing seems to have progressed further than that, for now at least.

 

[Firefinder]

H&K wasn't behind schedule, they were refusing to deliver contracted weapons to ATK, the prime contractor. ATK eventually terminated the contract and filed suit, later settling out of court.

And if I recall correctly the reason given why HK decide to refuse delivery...

That after nearly 30 years of working on this thing they felt that it broke one of the conventions on using exploding bullets. Forget which one, but I want to say Saint Petersburg...

Which either way the US never signed, and the 20mm grenade didn't break anyhow let alone the 25mm...

 

[Apophenia]

... they felt that it broke one of the conventions on using exploding bullets. Forget which one, but I want to say Saint Petersburg...

Which either way the US never signed, and the 20mm grenade didn't break anyhow let alone the 25mm...

Yes, it was the 1868 Declaration of Saint Petersburg (or Saint Petersburg Convention). That treaty was signed by the North German Confederation which the Bunderepublik would inherit - and the Saint Petersburg Declaration has been quoted in modern military manuals of the Bundeswehr.

HK may have felt they were safe working with a US firm. And then 666 Bundestag lawyers suggested they weren't? In any case, if the Saint Petersburg Declaration was too esoteric, the Bundesrepublik (and presumably its corporate entities) are certainly bound to adhere to Article 23(e) of the 1907 Hague Regulations and to the 1998 ICC Statute.