Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper

[quellish]

It is other way around.

Either way, there is another secret helicopter out there?

I have not read the book (I don't think it comes out until tomorrow), but what I have heard from several places is that the helicopter crashed after the assault, not while inserting the assault force.

It's safe to say there are several kinds of LO rotorcraft out there, for different missions. There was an Army rotorcraft project at Groom Lake called GHOST at one point. The Pave Hawks that operate out of Groom Lake in a security and SAR role are part of the "GHOST Squadron", which is not related to that program. It is possible that the "Ghost Hawks" are the product of the GHOST program, though it's just as likely that someone thought it was a cool name.

 

[robotpig]

A new book by Chuck Pfarrer claims that there are two different stealth choppers, the one that crashed, a modified by Lockheed H-60 (~4 aircraft build in 2000) and another one more advanced and stealthier that wasn't used. More on Danger Room's article here:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/11/super-stealth-copte/

 

[sublight]

It sounds like the ghost hawk is more of a "senior citizen" platform than an actual chopper.

 

[quellish]

A new book by Chuck Pfarrer claims that there are two different stealth choppers, the one that crashed, a modified by Lockheed H-60 (~4 aircraft build in 2000) and another one more advanced and stealthier that wasn't used. More on Danger Room's article here:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/11/super-stealth-copte/

It is EXTREMELY unlikely that only 2 airframes were in theatre. Two were used in the raid, with no backups? The Holloway report is still very fresh in the minds of mission planners.

It is also somewhat.... iffy.... that 160th SOAR was flying the mission. 160th supports SOCOM and JSOC (when part of a JSOC task force) and operates conventional aircraft built or modified for their needs. There is another special operations helicopter (and fixed wing) unit that operates directly under JSOC as a special mission unit, with much more unusual aircraft in their inventory. This unit is smaller and more focused, and much more able to train, fly, and maintain a small force of SSSHHHH-Hawks equipped with specialized sensors - one of the units they directly support uses hyperspectral sensors and specialized SIGINT hardware extensively.
160th, maybe not so much.

 

[Mr London 24/7]

A new book by Chuck Pfarrer claims that there are two different stealth choppers, the one that crashed, a modified by Lockheed H-60 (~4 aircraft build in 2000) and another one more advanced and stealthier that wasn't used. More on Danger Room's article here:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/11/super-stealth-copte/

Personally I don't buy it: it's classic disinfo to suggest there's something more secret than the newly glimpsed secret. My money would be on the (very credible) Sean Naylors original account being basically accurate (and this rather more sensational account being optimised to sell books).

This is a faceted Blackhawk which has then presumably taken further advantage of the advances in the spray-on coatings of recent years. I also don't buy Lockheed's involvement neccessarily: Sikorsky's own VLO group seemed perfectly able.

This is clearly a low-run airframe which has been very close-hold, still has missions to perform, and hence won't be coming into the light anytime soon...

 

[yasotay]

A new book by Chuck Pfarrer claims that there are two different stealth choppers, the one that crashed, a modified by Lockheed H-60 (~4 aircraft build in 2000) and another one more advanced and stealthier that wasn't used. More on Danger Room's article here:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/11/super-stealth-copte/

It is EXTREMELY unlikely that only 2 airframes were in theatre. Two were used in the raid, with no backups? The Holloway report is still very fresh in the minds of mission planners.

It is also somewhat.... iffy.... that 160th SOAR was flying the mission. 160th supports SOCOM and JSOC (when part of a JSOC task force) and operates conventional aircraft built or modified for their needs. There is another special operations helicopter (and fixed wing) unit that operates directly under JSOC as a special mission unit, with much more unusual aircraft in their inventory. This unit is smaller and more focused, and much more able to train, fly, and maintain a small force of SSSHHHH-Hawks equipped with specialized sensors - one of the units they directly support uses hyperspectral sensors and specialized SIGINT hardware extensively.
160th, maybe not so much.

Brother Q - mind your rearview mirror for tinted window SUV's and Black helicopters!

 

[Mr London 24/7]

.... Sikorsky's own VLO group seemed perfectly able....

...Notables from which consult via ASTA LLC... once involved in NG UCAR bid

 

[quellish]

.... Sikorsky's own VLO group seemed perfectly able....

...Notables from which consult via ASTA LLC... once involved in NG UCAR bid

Oh, you mean this guy?
https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=pts&hl=en&q=ininventor:%22Thomas+Dannenhoffer%22

 

[Dreamfighter]

I have never heard of this Chuck guy before neither have I read any parts of his book. Nevertheless, there was a documentary broadcasted on belgian TV a few weeks ago about the raid, with several US officials - including Hilary and Barack - commenting about the action. The 2 different choppers - Stealth hawk & Ghost Hawk - were mentioned and it was also said that the raid was carried out with the "older" Stealth Hawks.

 

[TomS]

I have never heard of this Chuck guy before neither have I read any parts of his book. Nevertheless, there was a documentary broadcasted on belgian TV a few weeks ago about the raid, with several US officials - including Hilary and Barack - commenting about the action. The 2 different choppers - Stealth hawk & Ghost Hawk - were mentioned and it was also said that the raid was carried out with the "older" Stealth Hawks.

Said by whom? The US has said Pfarrer's book is not accurate, and there's no real evidence in favor of his claims. The fact that someone put file footage of US officials together with a narrator repeating Pfarrer's story doesn't change that.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Said by whom? The US has said Pfarrer's book is not accurate, and there's no real evidence in favor of his claims. The fact that someone put file footage of US officials together with a narrator repeating Pfarrer's story doesn't change that.

It wasn't a narrator talking about the helos but a US official, though I don't remember if it was someone from the White House staff, from the DoD or from another departement involved.
I remember quite well someone briefly mentioned 2 different types of stealth-modified Hawks, because to me that was one of the most striking parts of the broadcast. Even Obama said a few things about the helo.

 

[flateric]

there was a documentary broadcasted on belgian TV a few weeks ago about the raid

name of the docu? air date?

 

[Dreamfighter]

there was a documentary broadcasted on belgian TV a few weeks ago about the raid

name of the docu? air date?

Past days I've been searching on the web (came across all kinds of "operation Geronimo" & "killing OBL" etc. documentaries) but I can't find the particular one that I've seen, it had a similar name but I can't remember the exact title...
There are a few other belgian members here I believe, perhaps someone can help out?
It was broadcasted on the Flemish "Canvas"-channel as part of the "Panorama"-series on Thursday, and I think it was on 27th october.

 

[flateric]

seems that Canvas was re-aired BBC ducu "Bin Laden: Shoot to Kill" like they distribute BBC 'Panorama' series every Fridaywas originally on Channel 4 HD on Wednesday 7th September 2011
are these caps seems familiar?

 

[Dreamfighter]

There were a few computer-generated images shown of the supposedly used Hawk, but rather to show the flightpattern of the approach to the compound then to show technical stuff. They did mention the Hawks were modified with stealth, but they didn't went into more detail about it.
I can't remember having seen the screenshots you posted...

 

[Dreamfighter]

Hum... I just watched on youtube the "Bin Laden: shoot to kill" docu you mentioned, and I think it is the one I saw.... I'm not 100% certain, though most parts are very similar or the same.
They indeed show those screenshots and mention the stealth modifications, but not the 2 different stealty types, and neither do they mention the names "ghost hawk" or "stealth hawk".
So I must have been mistaken (in that case I wonder where I got the idea from that there were 2 different stealty Hawk-types, as I haven't watched any another docu about the raid) and I should apologize, or the docu I saw on Canvas was another version, but that seems rather very unlikey.

 

[aliensporebomb]

In an unrelated but somewhat related topic:


When I went on my honeymoon in the UK back in 1995 we had the BBC news turned on in our hotel suite and I was stunned to see them saying "America today unveiled their first stealth helicopter". There was a hangar with american flag and inside the hangar was a black sleek faceted looking helicopter straight out of a science fiction movie that was supposedly the bird in question.


They then said that development had been underway for some time and that deployment was yet to be decided. I had no access to a PC or anything at the time over there and figured I'd have to come back to the U.S. in order to get more details.


But when I got back there wasn't a peep of anything about it. We weren't watching a film or dramatization. Very curious. I never did get concrete confirmation that we did or didn't have anything like that but it was very strange that in the UK this was broadcast news and there wasn't anything when I got back home.

 

[blackstar]

In an unrelated but somewhat related topic:


When I went on my honeymoon in the UK back in 1995 we had the BBC news turned on in our hotel suite and I was stunned to see them saying "America today unveiled their first stealth helicopter". There was a hangar with american flag and inside the hangar was a black sleek faceted looking helicopter straight out of a science fiction movie that was supposedly the bird in question.

You sure it wasn't the Commanche?

 

[TomS]

You sure it wasn't the Commanche?

Must have been -- the RAH-66 prototype was rolled out to the public on 25 May 1995. It had been in development since 1991.

 

[TsrJoe]

Was there ever anything to the rumoured 'grassblade' helicopter project?

 

[Mr London 24/7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-16714344

'Landed close'.... I wonder - did Airwolf strike again?....

 

[SteveO]

(This is a big thread and I haven't looked at it all properly so delete this post if it's already been mentioned)

Whatever happened to the utility variant of the LHX program that resulted in the RAH-66 Commanche?

I would have thought that this would be a likely candidate for a secret special forces stealth helicopter.

 

[quellish]

I find it hard to get on board with some of this. Mainly because they crashed one, it seems, because they didn't simulate the compound properly. The people involved would be the best of the best - an elite. They must have known they'd run in to problems landing in a walled courtyard, and that they'd be operating a helicopter very near to its limits in an area which could create re-circulating air. I'm willing to suppose Murphy might just enjoy causing trouble...

The aircraft reported came down during a landing or fast rope insertion due to vortex ring state caused by the density altitude at the target being far less than predicted.
"I know what I've been told, which was that the temperature was 17 degrees higher than anticipated, and based on the temperature, and the load in the helicopter, the helicopter began to descend, and so it was a kind of controlled but hard landing."
Feinstein, 5/3/11 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/03/us-binladen-qanda-idUSTRE7426Z720110503)

The lower than predicted density altitude at the target can make it easier to enter the vortex ring state, and harder to get out of it (http://books.google.com/books?id=jFQ5NulQWysC&pg=SA11-PA5&lpg=SA11-PA5). A hard landing may have been the only option available to the crew due to the proximity of buildings and the other assault helicopter.

Blade vortexes are also the source of most of a helicopter's noise signature. It's likely that a VLO helicopter would include blades and blade tips designed to lower the noise signature by changing the blade vortex interaction, which may also make a vortex ring state easier to enter. The tail of the SHHH-60 that was left in Pakistan showed 5 or 6 short, wide chord blades, which appear to be intended to reduce vortex interaction between the tail rotor blades. The main rotor produces a larger percentage of the aircraft's noise, so it is reasonable to assume that similar quieting methods may have been used there.

Against:
I've never heard of a design like the suggested stealth hawk. No one has said anything about it before now as far as I can tell, there've been no rumours of a specific design for a stealth transport helicopter, no half caught glimpses at sunrise in far away places. I find this significant because of the amount of rumour regarding fixed wing types, and that rumour is generally linked to something in existence. Are helicopters missing?

The February 6 1995 issue of Aviation Week described a VLO helicopter observed at Groom Lake. In the early 1990s there was a program to develop a signature reduction kit for a particular UH-60 model that was flight tested and shown to work. Some OH-58Ds have been modified with a set of signature reduction enhancements, and it is safe to say that there may be signature reduction methods in use by 160th SOAR on their aircraft. The RAH-66 and UCAR programs both designed LO/VLO rotorcraft, and there is a long history of VLO rotorcraft patents in the public eye. Sikorsky, Bell, and Boeing all have dedicated signature/LO groups in house. Sikorsky and Boeing both have outdoor signature test ranges (I don't know about Bell). As OBB pointed out, LO Blackhawk modifications were studied at least as far back as the 70s:
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=9714

Helicopters are somewhat easy to hide. They do not require as much space to test as high performance fighter aircraft, and many of them fit easily into transport aircraft like the C-5 or C-17. At a distance, a VLO helicopter may not look all that different from a conventional counterpart. There are many, many places in the US where a helicopter could be tested and operated covertly.

I keep coming back to what wreckage we've seen and I wonder if it's more the case that the tail boom has been re-engineered for low observability and is a fieldable kit to be used as and when necessary. Then it can be removed and the helicopter put back into normal use - hidden in fairly plain sight.

Field modification kits work if they don't drastically alter the flying qualities of the aircraft. From what we have seen of the tail, this modification would significantly alter how the aircraft flies.

 

[Stargazer]

Field modification kits work if they don't drastically alter the flying qualities of the aircraft. From what we have seen of the tail, this modification would significantly alter how the aircraft flies.

Unless the rotor is completely different, too.

 

[yasotay]

Field modification kits work if they don't drastically alter the flying qualities of the aircraft. From what we have seen of the tail, this modification would significantly alter how the aircraft flies.

Unless the rotor is completely different, too.

If the rotor is different then the main gearbox is (likely) different. If the gearbox is different then the dynamics and hydralics are different. If those are different then the flight controls are different... etc.

Not a field modification. Just the new tail alone likely caused significant changes in the gearbox. I can't imagine that the new tail rotor operated at the same rpm as a standard H-60 tail rotor.

 

[Grey Havoc]

On a related note:

IMAGE CREDIT: Sultan Mehmood / EPA​

Pakistan begins demolishing bin Laden compound (By NBC News and news services via msnbc.com)​

 

[Grey Havoc]

BBC report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17165800

There is heavy security around the compound, which served as Bin Laden's hideout for more than five years.

Residents say an unannounced curfew has been placed in the area, and residents have been asked not to leave their homes, the BBC's Ilyas Khan in Islamabad reports.

The site is a large compound with high walls built around the actual house.

Officials say the compound was handed over by the military to the civil authorities before the operation started.

They say the demolition was decided soon after the 2 May 2011 raid, but it was put off when the government set up a judicial commission to investigate the operation by US forces.

"Since the commission has almost completed its work and did not need the compound for any further investigation, it was decided it should be razed," an official said.

He said the reason for the demolition was the visitors the place continued to attract, which posed a security threat to the area, located in an important garrison town.

 

[Archibald]

Yeah, they are demolishing Osama hideout, presumably so that he never become the object of some cult. Hitler varied locations were also erased to the ground.

 

[Matej]

Was this posted before?

Initial plans called for the low-observable Black Hawks to be formed into a new unit commanded by a lieutenant colonel and located at a military facility in Nevada, the retired special operations aviator said. “The intent was always to move it out west where it could be kept in a covered capability,” he said.
USSOCOM planned to assign about 35 to 50 personnel to the unit, the retired special operations aviator said. “There were going to be four [low-observable] aircraft, they were going to have a couple of ‘slick’ unmodified Black Hawks, and that was going to be their job was to fly the low-observables.”
SOCOM canceled those plans “within the last two years,” but not before at least some of the low-observable helicopters had been delivered to the Nevada facility, the retired aviator said. “I don’t know if it was for money or if it was because the technology was not achieving the reduction in the radar cross-section that they were hoping for,” he said. In the meantime, MH-60 Black Hawk crews from the 160th’s 1st Battalion, headquartered at Fort Campbell, Ky., would rotate to Nevada to train on the stealthy aircraft, he said.
The low-observable MH-60s were armed with the same sort of door mini-guns as standard MH-60s, he said. “There was not a DAP conversion,” he added, referring to the MH-60 variant known as the Direct Action Penetrator, which is equipped with stub wings upon which can be fitted a variety of armaments.
The early versions of the low-observable Black Hawks were not fitted with air-to-air refueling probes, the retired special operations aviator said. “The probe would disrupt the ability to reduce the radar cross-section,” he added. “There was no way to put some kind of a hub or cowling over the probe that would make it stealthy.” However, he said he did not know whether the models that flew the bin Laden mission had been equipped with such probes.

http://www.armytimes.com/mobile/index.php?storyUrl=http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/05/army-mission-helocopter-was-secret-stealth-black-hawk-050411/

 

[tacitblue]

What's interesting is that even with knowledge of the aircraft, and with having seen its actual tail rotor section, that nothing else has been said officially about the chopper. It's as if one of the F-117s went down in the 1980s, and pictures of identifiable pieces of the airframe were spread around the globe, and the DoD still kept the aircraft under wraps and denied it's existence.

This chopper certainly doesn't do too much to alleviate the fears of the black helicopter crowd, now does it? I wonder what else the SEALS are keeping under wraps? Stealth troop transports I bet are one such item.

But at least it appears that the DoD got something out of the now defunct Comanche program!

 

[Sundog]

But at least it appears that the DoD got something out of the now defunct Comanche program!

I would be willing to bet this program precedes the "production" Comanche program. It was probably being developed in parallel as a separate program during the LHX development.

 

[Stargazer]

Perhaps the (supposedly) skipped "H-69" designation was used for it? That would make it a "YCH-69A" I guess...

 

[RobertWL]

interesting claim by the original source.
http://defensetech.org/2012/05/15/does-isreal-have-stealthy-black-hawks/

 

[TomS]

The original author here (F. Michael Maloof) writes for World Net Daily, which is not what I'd call a credible source.

The Times puts all its content behind a pay wall, but I did find a story that seems a little less removed (it has a direct link to the Times story), here:

http://intelnews.org/2012/03/26/01-955/

Note that this talks only of helicopters modified for extended range, which sounds a lot more plausible to me -- Blackhawks with ESSS and external fuel tanks are well-known capabilities.

 

[RobertWL]

Indeed, WMD is sketchy at best. Plus, a little more research into the author himself shows some other issues. But I thought it might be interesting for the pile, even if unlikely.

 

[Grey Havoc]

From a somewhat unusual source, but I thought it worth mentioning anyway:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/osama-bin-ladens-pakistani-hideout-837277

 

[yasotay]

Folks, having flown those mountains (on the Iraqi side only) during Operation Provide Comfort, I can honestly say that I don't really think that you would need a stealthy H-60 to get in and out of Iran. That terrain is so compartmented and cross-cut that if you are one valley over from the route of the helo you will not see if. Even accoustically direction finding a helo in that terrain is darn near impossible with the mountains. Any kind of winds in your valley you might never know if an entire helo brigade was tranisiting the next. Of course now with all the hoopla, it probably does not matter how stealthy a rotorcraft you have. As far as the long range contention, ESSS with tanks or an internal robertson tank ought to be sufficient. The REALLY big deal here is weight. Those altitudes, even in the winter, are really tough for an H-60 I can tell you. An H-60 with 15 personnel (crew and infil team) extra gas and flat-plate drag (ESSS or stealth stuff) is going to be a real pig. No OEI, likely power resrticted to ~80 knots so for the first hour or so and a rolling take-off. I could very well be missing something in my thoughts here, but using a silver bullet on this mission *shrug*.
Me, I'd go with an easily acquirable (and deniable) Mi-8 Hip in Iranian colors.

 

[flateric]

movie prop of Bin laden raid stealthy MH-60 for upcoming Kathryn Bigelow's Zero Dark Thirty (2012)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1323766__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Code_Name__Geronimo_set_pictures.html&page=1#i33880799

 

[Mr London 24/7]

Well cleared Gregory! (running slightly differently at 'The Aviationist'....)

http://theaviationist.com/2012/08/07/stealth-chopper-new/


Of course no gold windows...

 

[quellish]

movie prop of Bin laden raid stealthy MH-60 for upcoming Kathryn Bigelow's Zero Dark Thirty (2012)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1323766__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Code_Name__Geronimo_set_pictures.html&page=1#i33880799

I love how on these artist's concepts the tail - the one part we've seen - seems so out of place, as if it came from a completely different aircraft.