Arrow II - Reconstructing the Avro Arrow to fly

[Photon440]

Hi everyone. I mentioned the Arrow in my post in the 'introduce yourself' section and someone asked for pictures. Rather than continue in that thread I thought I'd put this by itself. Basically, a project to complete a flying replica of the Avro Arrow, reduced to 60% scale, is well underway at the AVRO Museum in Alberta. A slow effort, it has been underway for over ten years, with the results so far showing a recognizable airframe.

There are lots of others more recent than this, the rudder has since been mounted.

You can find these and many more photos at the museum's website page: https://www.avromuseum.com/photos5.html

Basic dimensions of this two seat piloted scale aircraft are:

Length: 46.ft
Height: 12.7ft
Wing - span: 30.0ft
Max. take off weight should be 8,200 lbs.

The engines, which were removed from a vintage LearJet specially purchased for this project, are GE CJ 610-6 turbojets good for 3,100 lbs thrust each.

The majority of the fuselage is fiberglass, while carbon fiber wings are used. They are undergoing fuel tank testing as of the last newsletter.

Anyway, the link probably answers most of your questions so I won't repeat it all here but ask away if there's anything I can add. Just so you know, I'm a museum volunteer, mostly working on archival data as I'm not close to the museum, and haven't actually seen it myself. But I hope to get there, as a life time member of the museum my name will eventually be added inside the undercarriage well.

 

[CJGibson]

I visited this project last week and suffice to say, I am stunned by the scope of it and impressed by the attitude, skills and hard work of all involved.

I received a very warm welcome from everyone, despite crashing it twice in the simulator.

This group deserves all the support they can get and I look forward to the Avro Arrow II taking to the air.

Chris

(Whisper) Perhaps the TSR.2 fans could do similar, but I'm sure the CAA would put it in a sack with a few bricks or strangle it with red tape.

 

[NMaude]

Why 60% scale? Just go for broke and build a full-scale Arrow Mk-1 and as for engines well there should still be plenty of J-75s lying around.

 

[Photon440]

While technically possible, a full sized flying copy would exceed the finances of the museum. Scaling back greatly simplifies construction, testing, build time and costs. And not just the construction costs need to be factored in; according to estimates given in the most recent newsletter, a typical 30 minute airshow will require as much as $2,500 in fuel and the operational costs would be even more. And that's just for the 60% size.

 

[NMaude]

Well I hope someone or someones front the money for the construction of a full-scale replica AND the needed funding for operational costs.

 

[Archibald]

60% the size should place it right into Mirage 4000 territory. Or even Rafale / Typhoon.

• Length: 77 ft 9 in (23.70 m)
• Wingspan: 50 ft (15 m)
• Height: 21 ft 2 in (6.45 m)
• Wing area: 1,225 sq ft (113.8 m2)

Let's make it 66% that is, two-third.
-24 m becomes 16 m (because 3x8)
-15 m becomes 10 m (because 3x5)
-and 114 m2 becomes 75 m2

Well it will be smaller than a 4000 and closer from a Typhoon.

 

[NMaude]

One thing that could be done is to build a full-scale structurally accurate replica of RL-201 including J-75 turbojets and have it displayed as a static exhibit in a museum.

Edit: In addition to RL-201 (The first Arrow Mk-1) a full-scale replica of RL-200 (The engineering mockup) could also be built for display in a museum.

 

[TsrJoe]

Slightly digressing from the impressive undertaking of a % flying project, there was a full scale mockup completed for a film on the Arrow, I'm not sure it's current disposition tho

 

[NMaude]

there was a full scale mockup completed for a film on the Arrow

It wasn't so much a mockup as a movie-prop.

I'm not sure it's current disposition tho

I think it might be in a museum.

 

[Foo Fighter]

One thing that could be done is to build a full-scale structurally accurate replica of RL-201 including J-75 turbojets and have it displayed as a static exhibit in a museum.

Edit: In addition to RL-201 (The first Arrow Mk-1) a full-scale replica of RL-200 (The engineering mockup) could also be built for display in a museum.

Someone will have to fund it and that is tough.

A 60% flying replica is already going some and shows great dedication. I doff my cap, seriously.

My best to all involved.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Just had a look around the site and it is extremely informative, giving details of materials and methodology. I have been led to another "Rainy day website" that will no doubt expend numerous hours and leaving me with that "Giddy child feeling". Yee and indeed, ha. Or as a fellow forumer would say, "Ha, ha".

 

[Desert Watchdog]

Just had a look around the site and it is extremely informative, giving details of materials and methodology. I have been led to another "Rainy day website" that will no doubt expend numerous hours and leaving me with that "Giddy child feeling". Yee and indeed, ha. Or as a fellow forumer would say, "Ha, ha".

Did you use the link in the OP? It won't load for me... nor does avromuseum.com. Just get the generic "This site can’t be reached" page. Didn't load yesterday either.

 

[Arjen]

@Desert Watchdog Try this:

Avro Museum - Arrow II Project

The challenge is to build a 60% scale, piloted replica of the CF-105 Avro Arrow within the limits of the Canadian recreational aircraft legislation. On March 23rd, 2005, Avro Museum approved a...

avro-museum.weebly.com

 

[Foo Fighter]

Did you use the link in the OP? It won't load for me... nor does avromuseum.com. Just get the generic "This site can’t be reached" page. Didn't load yesterday either.

I got a "Could not be found" response so went to the home page of the museum.

Avro Museum

Avro Museum is a charitable non-profit volunteer organization building a 60% scale piloted replica of the Avro Arrow which is under way at our Springbank Airport hangar, west of Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

avro-museum.weebly.com

 

[Photon440]

It wasn't so much a mockup as a movie-prop.



I think it might be in a museum.

It was originally developed as a full scale model, CBC learned of it and made use of it in the "ARROW" movie. It's currently in the Air and Space museum in Toronto.

 

[NMaude]

Someone will have to fund it and that is tough.

I know but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find a millionaire or two to come up with some serious funding especially if there's a major publicity campaign behind it, from what understand there's a lot of sore-feelings in Canada over the underhanded cancellation of the Arrow programme by the Diefenbaker cabinet (IMO they're guilty of high-treason) which basically arse-fucked Canada's aerospace industry and there was a lot of national pride in the Arrow.

 

[CJGibson]

The reason it is 60% is that it comes within the category of an experimental aircraft.

NMaude - while a full-scale article would be nice, it would be in a completely different regulation field. The rules recently changed to allow it to be 70%, but a) too late b) more expensive

Foofighter - I agree, more power to their elbow.

I've taken out a five year membership and, if you take out a lifetime membership, you get to fly in the back seat. It may be churlish to say it should be this or should be that BUT this group are taking action and as the Flight Operations Director told me 'We have to keep the Arrow, and its history in the public eye.'

Chris

 

[NMaude]

NMaude - while a full-scale article would be nice, it would be in a completely different regulation field.

What kind of regulations?

 

[Photon440]

I know but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find a millionaire or two to come up with some serious funding especially if there's a major publicity campaign behind it, from what understand there's a lot of sore-feelings in Canada over the underhanded cancellation of the Arrow programme by the Diefenbaker cabinet (IMO they're guilty of high-treason) which basically arse-fucked Canada's aerospace industry and there was a lot of national pride in the Arrow.

To truly build an Arrow replica in full size would be a lot more than more multi-millionaires would want to handle. The original cost hundreds of millions, in 1950's dollars, and the cost was expected to be amortized over an entire fleet of aircraft.

For example, something basic like the main landing gear assembly frame required a huge casting in stainless steel, weighing over 1,000 pounds, which was then machined down to the final 150 pound finished piece.

It was truly a shame that the Arrow RL106 didn't get a chance to fly with the intended engines.. Not only were the first five examples under-powered with the Pratt & Whittney replacement engines, those engines also weighed a lot more. And on top of that, additional weight had to be added to the nose to maintain balance. If the lighter weight and more powerful RL106 had flown a week before the cancellation date, it might have kept the aircraft alive.

 

[NMaude]

To truly build an Arrow replica in full size would be a lot more than more multi-millionaires would want to handle. The original cost hundreds of millions, in 1950's dollars, and the cost was expected to be amortized over an entire fleet of aircraft.

True, however that was the original cost but despite the best efforts of the Deifenbaker cabinet a lot of disgruntled Avro employees saved copious quantities of of Arrow documentation that was supposed to have been destroyed including engineering-drawings. These can easily be redrawn on autocad (I remember seeing such drawings online in the late 1990s) and used to build a full-scale replica (It's just a matter of funding).

For example, something basic like the main landing gear assembly frame required a huge casting in stainless steel, weighing over 1,000 pounds, which was then machined down to the final 150 pound finished piece.

Modern manufacturing techniques including additive-manufacturing (Aka 3D-printing) could be used to hold down costs but again just a matter of funding.

It was truly a shame that the Arrow RL106 didn't get a chance to fly with the intended engines.

RL-206. Yes it was a shame.

If the lighter weight and more powerful RL106 had flown a week before the cancellation date, it might have kept the aircraft alive.

An interesting point.

Fun fact. The bulk saved scrapped Arrow airframe parts ARE from RL-206 and there are a couple of intact Orenda Iroquois turbojets still in existence along with technical documentation (A staggering amount of Arrow documentation was saved by pissed-off Avro employees).

 

[CJGibson]

What kind of regulations?

Canadian aircraft regulations governing experimental status and weight class.

Chris

 

[Desert Watchdog]

I got a "Could not be found" response so went to the home page of the museum.

Avro Museum

Avro Museum is a charitable non-profit volunteer organization building a 60% scale piloted replica of the Avro Arrow which is under way at our Springbank Airport hangar, west of Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

avro-museum.weebly.com

Thanks, Arjen and Foo.