Anglo-French AEW

[Hood]

Reading Norman Friedman's 'British Carrier Aviation' he mentions that Britain and France were working on a "third-generation" AEW aircraft whcih would carry a British airborne 3-D radar. It was killed by the demise of the CVA-01. He gives no other details. I know of the HSA P.139 but was this another seperate aircraft. Friedman gives no more details and I've never heard of such a design.

Does anyone have any details or further information?

 

[hesham]

Hi Hood,

see also;
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1272.0.html

 

[Jemiba]

Here are the Breguet proposals, the Br.123A, with fore and aft radar
scanner and the B with dorsal radome, both proposals with turboprop
and turbofan engines.

 

[TinWing]

Here are the Breguet proposals, the Br.123A, with fore and aft radar
scanner and the B with dorsal radome, both proposals with turboprop
and turbofan engines.

?

Wow! Your drawings are incredible. Do you produce them in a higher resolution?

It is interesting that that the both the high wing and low wing proposals used the same wing planform. The turbofan proposal used a Snecma M46 turbofan of about 4,500kg thrust, which I presumed to be an outgrowth of the M45 engine family. The turboprop is fairly unique in using contrarotating props due to the limited clearance of the low mounted wing. I assume that the Tyne would be used, but the specs only state that a 4,500 shp engine would have been used.

I assume that "Avions Breguet" by Jean Cuny was the primary source for your drawings?

 

[Jemiba]

"I assume that "Avions Breguet" by Jean Cuny was the primary source for your drawings?"

Of course ! I found something in the net, but obviously the source was the same ...

 

[Hood]

Urgh! And I thought the P.139 was ugly.

Great drawings as ever Jemiba.

The question I'm asking now is what are the radar types of these proposals? Are they French or British or even American? Anyone know any likely search ranges and performances of the radars or where I can find such data?

I was interested in the Buccaneer AEW proposals mentioned in the link. It seems a cheap way to get a radar airborne but there is only one crewman to assess the data and send that back to the carrier or to the intercepting fighter. Given the bulky Type 984 radar and electronics the AEW was to augment (along with Broomstick) or replace and the automated intercept calculators etc that sytem had it seems a large aircraft with more than four crew was needed to make it an effective system.

 

[Jemiba]

"I thought the P.139 was ugly"

Ugly ?? Just reasonable designed and without any needless gimmicks, just
to make it look better ...

The Buccaneer probably would have been just a flying radar antenna, sending
the raw radar data back to the carrier via data link, so one man could have been
enough to handle htis task, I think.

In RAF Flying Review 10/1964 I found another contender for the shipboard AEW
role, the Dassault Spirale III AEW. No information regarding the radar were given,
just that the single antenna could give both azimuth and height of a target and
the take-off weight of this version would have been 24.250 lbs.

 

[MIRAGE 4000]

Two days ago I found the Sud Aviation project (AS-X-137) documentation in archives .

I was the same of Breguet ....

Fat, ugly ... as the anglo-british AEW family ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[fightingirish]

The SA-X-137 AEW project is illustrated in Le fana de l'aviation - April 2013, page 34


[Removed picture. This article is by Alexis Rocher ("MIRAGE 4000" on forum), he discovered SA-X-137 in the archives as posted in the previous post. His article also has British AEW designs supplied by Chris Gibson, Its a current issue -buy the magazine if you want to see it - Admin]

 

[hesham]

Oh my God,


great find my dear Fightingirish.

 

[Jemiba]

The two twin boomers look a lot like the Breguet Br.123 (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6777.msg57674.html#msg57674)
Any relation, or just "form follows function ?

 

[Rickshaw]

What is that hanging down from the fuselage of the versions with the over-fuselage rotodome? Is it a long, folding fin?

 

[Jemiba]

If you're reffering to the Breguet Br.13B designs, it's the height finding antenna.

 

[Archibald]

slightly off-topic: it's a pity Breguet didn't consider an AEW variant of its Breguet 941. It could land in 190 meters, shorter than the length of many aircrafts carriers. Jean Cuny briefly mention that a carrier ordonance delivery mission was considered for the Br. 941.
If a C-130 could land on a Forrestal, no reason a Br.941 couldn't land on the Foch...

 

[Jemiba]

Should have been less of a problem, than with the C-130 on the US CV. Just hangaring
would have been impossible, too.
(drawing used from http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/ships/ships-france/nmf-clemenceau-r98-aircraft-carrier-3.png)

 

[Rickshaw]

If you're reffering to the Breguet Br.13B designs, it's the height finding antenna.

Interesting that they'd adopt such a radical aerial rather than trying to integrate it into the main one.

 

[Rickshaw]

Please do you have the dimensions on the BR-123 turboprop?

 

[toura]

From docavia ( Jean Cuny)

 

[hesham]

The SA-X-137 AEW project is illustrated in Le fana de l'aviation - April 2013, page 34


[Removed picture. This article is by Alexis Rocher ("MIRAGE 4000" on forum), he discovered SA-X-137 in the archives as posted in the previous post. His article also has British AEW designs supplied by Chris Gibson, Its a current issue -buy the magazine if you want to see it - Admin]

Now we can put it here.