Alternatives to the BAe Hawk trainer

overscan (PaulMM)

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BAC studied two projects for the RAF basic trainer requirement, P.59 and P.62. P.59 was designed around a single Viper 600 turbofan. Speed Mach 0.9, 5,000lb warload. P.62 was designed around a reheated Adour turbofan. BAC were "soft-pedalling" P.62, as it was higher cost.

Source:
Air Enthusiast August 1971
 

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Minor correction, Viper 600 is a turbojet, same engine as used in late-model MB.326s & all MB.339s and Super Galebs among other aircraft.
 
Has anyone got a 3-view of the BAC P59? I ahve hunted through various mags from the 70s to no avail. There must be a brochure out there somewhere.

UK 75
 
Braybrook's 1984 Hawk book and Peter R March's 1995 Hawk Comes of Age book both have GAs, IIRC. Both boxed somewhere, but I can dig out if needs be in a day or two.
 
"Only stupid man are tidy, the genius rules the chaos !"

I've found it at once ... :D

(from Roy Braybrook "Hawk" )
 

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Hi,

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1971/1971%20-%200916.html
 

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Hi,


I heard also the Scottish Aviation submitted a proposal to this tender,but I am not sure
about that.


Here is the Hawker HS.1182 Model.
 

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Another view of the BAC P.59 model, exhibited at Le Bourget 1971, from Aviation Magazine 565.
 

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This procurement was important far beyond the Gnat T.1 replacement Requirement. Until early-1970 that had already been determined as Jaguar 'B'. But in late-69 NATO had settled upon a battlefield nuclear policy of scattering bangs <200kt over FRG: UK elected to offer a UK weapon for that (to be WE.177C) and to fit it to not-F-4M in order to display commitment to Europe as a "second centre" of nuclear decision-making (this was all to do with France-not-in NATO nuclear councils, UK wanting to be in EEC...) Just as Labour was about to lose 5/70 Election, Def.Minister Healey chose to recast UK's 200 Jaguars as 165 'S', only 35 'B' (and those not as the standard trainer); to hang WE.177C on them; so to procure something simple as the advanced trainer.

HSAL+RRTM had very little business or possibly less. They offered an all-up fixed price. The new Minister was stunned. This was the UK Aero industry. It could not spell "incentive". Selected 10/70 it took the Procurers until 21/3/72 to agree a contract, because Treasury had no means of demonstrating the "fairness" of one package price (£6,567,500!*) for all R&D+supply of 175 flying machines, with things in most holes. That's not how we do it round here. BAC took no part in any of this (could not spell "incentive") so Hawk was not chosen as being in any way "better" than ANOther, but because its bidder put his money where his mouth was.

And did a fine job. That led directly to today's Procurement Process, where we no longer buy products (say training helicopters), but capability (say, quantity x hours of serviceable platforms per week).

(* corrected 25/1/15: this No. is plain wrong; don't now know where it came from. aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/Publications/The Journal of Aeronautical History/2013-01_HawkStory-Fraser-Mitchell.pdf has 2013 assessment).
 
alertken said:
Def.Minister Healey chose to recast UK's 200 Jaguars as 165 'S', only 35 'B' (and those not as the standard trainer); to hang WE.177C on them; so to procure something simple as the advanced trainer.

HSAL+RRTM had very little business or possibly less. They offered an all-up fixed price. The new Minister was stunned. This was the UK Aero industry. It could not spell "incentive".


It was also the case that the Jaguar was not suitable for training. "a test pilot’s delight - everything was wrong with it" - http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hawkerassociation/hanewsletters/hanewsletter038nvu/luckyaviator.html

HS had done the Nimrod fixed price, and Harrier too, (both developments of earlier types, so lower risk). The novelty on Hawk was the addition of incentives for reliability and maintainability, which HS achieved and got well paid for, to treasury/MoD surprise/chagrin.

See also: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22175.msg223177.html
 
Some details for the original competitors to what became Hawk.

The HS.1182, BAC P.59 and P.60 were actually submitted before the ASR was raised and based on the requirements of a draft Staff Target and export studies. The P.59 was developed from the P.54 and designed to be the cheapest to meet the requirements and retain export value.

HS.1182: Span 32ft, length 38.5ft, wing area 190sq ft, AUW 9,780lb, wing loading 51.5lb/sq ft 1x 5,000lb Adour (unreheated), max speed M0.83, max cruise speed 490kts, 7.0 mins to 30,000ft.
HSA also briefly considered versions with twin Larzac-01 or JT-15D. With Larzac engines the AUW was 9,880lb, max speed M.082, max cruise speed 490kts, 10 mins to 30,000ft.

P.54-3: AUW 8,500lb, max speed M0.83, 6.0 mins to 30,000ft.

P.54-6: AUW 8,476lb, max speed M0.83, 6.5 mins to 30,000ft.

P.55: a variant of the Jet Provost with a Viper 600 and required avionics. No strike version as no substantial improvement over Strikemaster possible.

P.59: Span 29.6ft, length 35.8ft, wing area 145sq ft, AUW 9,800lb, wing loading 67.7lb/sq ft 1x 4,000lb Viper 600, max speed M0.82, max cruise speed 500kts, 7.7 mins to 30,000ft.

P.60F1: P.59: Span 28.2ft, length 41.5ft, wing area 160sq ft, AUW 10,957lb, wing loading 68.5lb/sq ft 1x 5,000lb Adour (unreheated), max speed M0.96, max cruise speed 500kts, 7.8 mins to 30,000ft, endurance 1.75 hours at sea level.
Other members of the P.60 included the P.60F2 with reheated Ardour for close air support roles. The F2 was to reach M1.2 at altitude.

The P.61F with a RB.199 for close air support and air superiority roles was also closely related to the P.60 family. The P.61F would be a scaled down MRCA with an empty weight of 15,000lb, max speed 0.9M at low level. Avionics would consist of a radar with a dish of AI.23 or Cyrano II size and day-attack avionics. 6x Taildog AAMs. Studies included single and twin-seaters with fixed and VG wings. Only wanted by RAF is a CAS platform.
The P.61F2/F3 was a further development of the P.60F2 with an RB.199-34R reheated fanje for a max speed of Mach 2.0.

Source: AIR 2/18602
 
Amazing Info my dear Hood,

but there is something weird,in my list,BAC P.55 was a lift body spacecraft ?.
 
Source: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Fotografie-Flugzeug-BAC-P59-Kampfjet-Modell-/383753670414
The auction at Ebay has ended, but these pictures are still available at oldthing.de.
Links:
So I only will attach one picture.
 

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Certainly and interesting topic that is often glossed over. From when exactly did the program to replace the Gant start? Does anyone have more pictures/drawings of the tenders?
 
More Info about P.59,JAWA 1972.
 

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One of the major actually-built competitors ot the Hawk was the German/French Alpha Jet which, despite considerable effort, only racked up a few export sales (Belguim, Egypt, Nigeria - not counting resales). I've always wondered why these two contemporaries had such different levels of success in the export market - any ideas?
 
One of the major actually-built competitors ot the Hawk was the German/French Alpha Jet which, despite considerable effort, only racked up a few export sales (Belguim, Egypt, Nigeria - not counting resales). I've always wondered why these two contemporaries had such different levels of success in the export market - any ideas?
This is just a guess, but I’d think the BAe experience in selling and maintaining export jets like the Canberra, Hunter, and Lightning left them with good contacts and a good understanding of the culture in a wide range of nations.
 
Also it didn't help that the Alpha Jet was kinda gold-plated as a trainer cum light attck aircraft, because the German requirement was for CAS in Europe, which is much more than just light attack for third world scenarios.
And the duplicated/triplicated/quadruple assembly lines did not make it any cheaper.
 
One of the major actually-built competitors ot the Hawk was the German/French Alpha Jet which, despite considerable effort, only racked up a few export sales (Belguim, Egypt, Nigeria - not counting resales). I've always wondered why these two contemporaries had such different levels of success in the export market - any ideas?

Just like Jaguar, Alphajet was of Breguet & cooperation legacy: Dassault nightmare. Not sure they fought full bore for it. The German variant was different too. They certainly took a beating against the Hawk.

The British aircraft industry had not much else to offer bar Jaguar and Harrier. And Hawk was 100% British.

Dassault on the other hand had plenty different fighter bombers beside improved Alphajets (Lancier !): Mirage III & F1 & 2000 & the Jaguar they half sabotaged. Still, they sold some Alphajets to African countries...


@dan_inbox nailed it better than my little self.

And there are interesting lessons there.

Hawk vs Alpha jet was kind of Jaguar vs Mirages - but reversed. Cooperation vs national, 1-engine vs 2-engines... what screwed the Jaguar, screwed the Alpha Jet. No surprise btw: two engines and cooperation don't result in cheap aircraft, even if they are pretty good.

How about that... ! The Hawk savaged the AJ and Dassault, avenging the Jaguar. I'm half-joking of course, but the parallels are quite interesting.
What's more, the Hawk succeeded as a naval aircraft and trainer - two areas where the Jaguar failed miserably.

BAe Hawk: lessons duly learned from the Jaguar !
 
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Also it didn't help that the Alpha Jet was kinda gold-plated as a trainer cum light attck aircraft, because the German requirement was for CAS in Europe, which is much more than just light attack for third world scenarios.
And the duplicated/triplicated/quadruple assembly lines did not make it any cheaper.
But wasn't the hawk mostly used as cas anyway in the third world? What was on the alpha jet that made it gold plated compared to the hawk.
 
Also it didn't help that the Alpha Jet was kinda gold-plated as a trainer cum light attck aircraft, because the German requirement was for CAS in Europe, which is much more than just light attack for third world scenarios.
And the duplicated/triplicated/quadruple assembly lines did not make it any cheaper.
But wasn't the hawk mostly used as cas anyway in the third world? What was on the alpha jet that made it gold plated compared to the hawk.

He nailed it: two engines instead of one, and cooperation making it more expensive. Plus the Germans dumping their Alpha Jet A they had requested, then found unuseful.

Don't forget the Luftwaffe Alpha jets were to be used for attack and also as attack helicopter killers. In a few words: as poor's men A-10 Warthogs.

But an AJ cannot be an A-10... yet the Germans did not listened, ordered a crapload of Alpha Jet A only to dump them at bargain price - like East Germany MiG-21s after 1991 ROTFL.

Drats, another funny lesson there... the Germans dragged the Alpha Jet toward the ground attack role... just as happened to the freakkin' Jaguar with the British a decade earlier.
 
Reading about the long competition in the 70s in Air Enthusiast/Air International, I had the impression that it much more of a near-run competition. That the Hawk had a better fatigue life spectrum and a single, derivative engine (used on another aircraft) didn't seem to hurt in the long run.
 
It was a close battle, Hawk and Alphajet duelled everywhere in every regional market. The Hawk built up momentum that the Alphajet couldn't compete with. By the early 1990s Dassault were trying to dump unsold airframes on the market at cheap prices (India contest in particular) and then ex-German airframes.
I think its fair to say that Hawk had more continual development, Dassault did try some high-end variants like Lancer but they didn't sell as well compared to the Hawk 100 series. Hawk triumphed in diplomatically troublesome nations (Indonesia), new markets (South Korea) and old established air forces too. Quite a feat really. But then Lynx did well at the same time across the world, so there was some tailwind there I think. Alphajets on the whole tended to be brought by Mirage users/Francophone nations.
 
Cameroon

Cameroon Air Force (Alpha Jet MS2) – 27 (12 are in service)

Egypt

Egypt Air Force (Alpha Jet MS2 and E) – 14 MS2 and 40 E (MS1), All upgraded to (MS2)

France

French Air Force (Alpha Jet E) – 99

Morocco

Royal Moroccan Air Force (Alpha Jet E) – 24

Nigeria

Nigerian Air Force (Alpha Jet E) – 24 acquired. 4 upgraded in 2011, 9 more reactivated. 11 in service.

Qatar

Qatar Emiri Air Force (Alpha Jet E) – six

Thailand

Royal Thai Air Force (19 Alpha Jet A – former Luftwaffe aircraft)

Togo

Togo Air Force – 5 (Alpha Jet E)

Former operators

Belgium


Belgian Air Component (Alpha Jet E) – 33 acquired in 1978, phased out 2019. Last remaining 25 sold to Top Aces

Germany

German Air Force – 93 (Alpha Jet A)

Ivory Coast

Côte d'Ivoire Air Force (Alpha Jet E) – seven

Portugal

Portuguese Air Force – 50 (Alpha Jet A, former Luftwaffe aircraft) acquired 1993. Retired 13 January 2018.[83][84][85]
 

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