ALRRM missile?

[Sferrin]

https://nextgendefense.com/hypersonic-capability-us-navy/
"A Palladyne AI subsidiary is set to develop a new long-range missile that aims to strike the balance between affordability and near-hypersonic striking power.

The Air-Launched Rapid Response Missile (ALRRM) system, tasked to Kansas-based GuideTech, is envisioned to sustain cruise speeds beyond Mach 4, equivalent to about 4,939 kilometers or 3,069 miles per hour.

It is also expected to achieve an operational range of more than 350 nautical miles (648 kilometers/403 miles) while carrying a 150-pound (68-kilogram) warhead."

 

[Seragina]

Originally, I wanted to write something encompassing about this a while ago but it would have been more speculative since there was no hardware shown yet.
Anyhow, this is basically the internal carriage version that will replace SDB-I and SDB-II but for time critical strike. In a sense the smaller option to the USAF's underwing AGM-183A and Navy's HyFly/HyFly2 or the F18.
Originally, the military wanted surviable strike (modular and long range). The USAF said they wanted 250 lb improved (fragmentation) bombs (as cluster replacement) and (assuming) penetrator versions to replace the SDB's. It seems Barracuda-250 has taken on those roles in addition to the new EW version similar to Spear-3. I assume the newer more powerful 100-125 lb type of warheads are considered sufficient for single targets rather than above desired large area effect.

It looks like a 2-stage design with a booster and smaller guided glide missile. The guided missile looks like the same one used in the new multi-purpose Standard missile for the Navy that was shown recently.

 

[TomS]

I can't see a hypersonic weapon with that kind of range and a 150-lb warhead fitting into the 250-lb package like an SDB.

 

[Seragina]

I can't see a hypersonic weapon with that kind of range and a 150-lb warhead fitting into the 250-lb package like an SDB.

It's obviously role replacement not same size replacement. It obviously will have AIM120 length with the booster.

 

[insidersource]

Specs given:
Mach 4
350nm range
150lb warhead
That is a 2,000lb class missile. I can't see it fitting internally on a stealth fighter.

AIM-174B by comparison
1,900lb weight
140lb warhead
Mach 3.5 speed
250 mile range.

This new missile being a ramjet will allow for a bit of extra speed and range over the AIM-174B.

 

[Sferrin]

Specs given:
Mach 4
350nm range
150lb warhead
That is a 2,000lb class missile. I can't see it fitting internally on a stealth fighter.

AIM-174B by comparison
1,900lb weight
140lb warhead
Mach 3.5 speed
250 mile range.

This new missile being a ramjet will allow for a bit of extra speed and range over the AIM-174B.

Think ramjet powered SiAW.

 

[TomS]

It's obviously role replacement not same size replacement. It obviously will have AIM120 length with the booster.

No chance. An AMRAAM-scale weapon with a 150-lb warhead would be more than 1/3 payload. And that won't give you the specified combo of speed and range.

The initial SBIR award was talking about a weapon under 15 feet long and less than 2,000 lbs in weight. It won't be much less than either of those.

https://www.sbir.gov/awards/211185

 

[Seragina]

It's hypersonic and definitely a ramjet/scramjet. The 15ft requirement does put it a bit longer than aim120 but the 2000 lb weight is still within mk84 range. So it's a bit larger but within expected margin range.

 

[TomS]

It's hypersonic and definitely a ramjet/scramjet. The 15ft requirement does put it a bit longer than aim120 but the 2000 lb weight is still within mk84 range. So it's a bit larger but within expected margin range.

But absolutely not an SDB successor or alternative in any way. It's in the same realm as HALO.

 

[Kat Tsun]

It's obviously role replacement

SDB is designed to destroy hard fixed targets like HASs and launch silos. You don't need hypersonic speed for that because they don't move.

 

[TomS]

SDB is designed to destroy hard fixed targets like HASs and launch silos. You don't need hypersonic speed for that because they don't move.

Hypersonics can also be about overcoming defenses.

 

[Seragina]

SDB is designed to destroy hard fixed targets like HASs and launch silos. You don't need hypersonic speed for that because they don't move.

It seems you don't know what SDB is truely for. SDB is for increasing magazin depth of the F22/F35 while offering similar destruction to larger bombs. SDB-I is for penetrating fortifications. SDB-II is for blast/fragmentation damage.

As I already said this is for time critical strike like for killing SAM or tactical/strategic launchers.
Apparently, the military considers getting a mission kill/damaging the target system as quickly as possible is preferable than complete destruction, hence, small warhead. The final blow could be done at a later time with any of the slower ordance options.

 

[Kat Tsun]

Hypersonics can also be about overcoming defenses.

True but they're probably unreliable in practical use. The most time critical targets are typically artillery pieces.

It seems you don't know what SDB is truely for.

It's for killing HASs. The SDB requirement came about as a result of the Gulf War and the need to expend multiple bunker busters on HAS.

SDB-II is for blast/fragmentation damage.

Stormbreaker is a tank destroying weapon. It has a shaped charge for punching through armor.

As I already said this is for time critical strike like for killing SAM or tactical/strategic launchers.

Which has nothing to do with SDB lol. It can be used for that but it's pretty far down on its target list.

There's been an outstanding TEL killing missile requirement for about 30 years in the USAF inventory, as a result of extrapolations of the ODS Scud Hunt to North Korea IIRC, LONGFOG was the first and was supposed to be carried by aircraft to kill Koksans and SRBMs as they came out of their hides. Hypersonics came a bit later with Prompt Global Strike and the desire to hit a TEL within 30-45 minutes of detection anywhere in the world.

SDB quite obviously cannot do that, so it's not exactly a TEL hunter, and there's simply no replacement to be had.

It's quite literally only used because it's what is available.

 

[TomS]

IIRC, LONGFOG was the first and was supposed to be carried by aircraft to kill Koksans and SRBMs as they came out of their hides.

100% agreed with everything else, but are you sure about air-launched LongFOG? Everything I've seen says that LongFOG was ground-launched.

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2023/05/fibre-optic-guided-missiles-efog-m-polyphem-and-others/

 

[Seragina]

True but they're probably unreliable in practical use. The most time critical targets are typically artillery pieces.

Good points but ultimately pointless to the discussion and not realy contrary to my points.
Missile launchers or any kind are termed missile artillery.

It's for killing HASs. The SDB requirement came about as a result of the Gulf War and the need to expend multiple bunker busters on HAS.

Barely different from bunkers. So what's the point?

Stormbreaker is a tank destroying weapon. It has a shaped charge for punching through armor.

Yes, they got multpurpose warhead that can serve both as heat and frag/blast. Has become pretty much standard these days. What's the point of this little detail. It would have been a major difference were it a different weight class.

Which has nothing to do with SDB lol. It can be used for that but it's pretty far down on its target list.

Any weapon can be used for any purpose as long as they can hit. A dump bomb can be used to down an aircraft midlfight as shown in Desert Storm by a F111. I didn't say it's sole main target but it's certainly a priority target as you amid yourself with artillery above.

There's been an outstanding TEL killing missile requirement for about 30 years in the USAF inventory, as a result of extrapolations of the ODS Scud Hunt to North Korea IIRC, LONGFOG was the first and was supposed to be carried by aircraft to kill Koksans and SRBMs as they came out of their hides. Hypersonics came a bit later with Prompt Global Strike and the desire to hit a TEL within 30-45 minutes of detection anywhere in the world.

SDB quite obviously cannot do that, so it's not exactly a TEL hunter, and there's simply no replacement to be had.

It's quite literally only used because it's what is available.

You do realize this is for an aircraft and not something launched from CONUS?

 

[Kat Tsun]

100% agreed with everything else, but are you sure about air-launched LongFOG? Everything I've seen says that LongFOG was ground-launched.

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2023/05/fibre-optic-guided-missiles-efog-m-polyphem-and-others/

I might be conflating the in-flight bobbin test with the intended implementation or Longhorn.

It would have been a major difference were it a different weight class.

I have dreadful news about the difference between a 250 lbs bomb and a 2,000 lbs missile.

There's no real overlap in roles between a missile that goes Mach 4 and weighs 2000 lbs and a glide bomb that goes subsonic and weighs 250 lbs. You're just looking at the payload mass which is kind of completely irrelevant. SDB simply can't do time critical targets. It requires the plane to loiter or a drone to hang around doing lasing.

You do realize this is for an aircraft and not something launched from CONUS?

Pretty much none of the PGS weapons were intended to be used from CONUS.

Conventional Trident certainly wouldn't be! Not only could they not spare the missiles nor silos, it wouldn't be very useful if CENTCOM has to ask NORTHCOM to fire a rocket. PGS/CPS/whatever it's called this decade is explicitly for COCOMs to be able to swat time critical targets in their AOs, within about an hour of detection, or something to that effect.

 

[TomS]

Yes, they got multpurpose warhead that can serve both as heat and frag/blast. Has become pretty much standard these days. What's the point of this little detail. It would have been a major difference were it a different weight class

They have very different warheads to suit their different target sets.
SDB-I has a 206-lb warhead, mostly hardened steel with 36 lbs of HE. That's a hard target penetrator, optimized to penetrate HAS but also suitable for ammo storage sites and bunkers.

Stormbreaker (nee SDB-II) has a 105-lb shaped charge with fragmentation (actual HE fill is elusive but I'll bet it's similar to SDB-I). That won't pop a hardened structure target like SDB-I but will definitely do in a TEL or armored vehicle.

 

[Seragina]

I have dreadful news about the difference between a 250 lbs bomb and a 2,000 lbs missile.

There's no real overlap in roles between a missile that goes Mach 4 and weighs 2000 lbs and a glide bomb that goes subsonic and weighs 250 lbs. You're just looking at the payload mass which is kind of completely irrelevant. SDB simply can't do time critical targets. It requires the plane to loiter or a drone to hang around doing lasing.

That's only true if you just look at a physical kinetic hit and dismiss area effect.
I never said SDB is time critical. I said this new missile is time critical that's why it's replacing SDB for this very reason.

They have very different warheads to suit their different target sets.
SDB-I has a 206-lb warhead, mostly hardened steel with 36 lbs of HE. That's a hard target penetrator, optimized to penetrate HAS but also suitable for ammo storage sites and bunkers.

Stormbreaker (nee SDB-II) has a 105-lb shaped charge with fragmentation (actual HE fill is elusive but I'll bet it's similar to SDB-I). That won't pop a hardened structure target like SDB-I but will definitely do in a TEL or armored vehicle.

Well, I already outlined SDB-I as penetrator and SDB-II as a (area effect) bomb as the use case difference.

 

[TomS]

I said this new missile is time critical that's why it's replacing SDB for this very reason.

It is not replacing SDB in any way at all. It fills a totally different requirement. Why is this so hard to understand.

 

[Kat Tsun]

I never said SDB is time critical. I said this new missile is time critical that's why it's replacing SDB for this very reason.

That's cool but you're just wrong. There are presently no time critical target weapons in USAF inventory since ARRW died. ALRRM may be trying to add that back in but, for hopefully obvious reasons, the 250 lbs SDB won't be replaced by a 2,000 lbs hypersonic missile.

SDB can be used to kill TELs in the same way an AGM-65 can be used to kill tanks. It's a bit of a waste, and air forces desire better weapons fit for the job (which is how Wasp and Brimstone came about in the first place), but at the end of the day a bomb is a bomb and a truck is a truck.

 

[Josh_TN]

@Sferrin i think succinctly summarized it as a longer ranged SiAW. Basically extending that engagement of mobile, high priority targets from stand in ranges to stand off ranges. I am a little surprised F-35 internal carriage was not an explicit requirement.

 

[TomS]

@Sferrin i think succinctly summarized it as a longer ranged SiAW. Basically extending that engagement of mobile, high priority targets from stand in ranges to stand off ranges. I am a little surprised F-35 internal carriage was not an explicit requirement.

The press release looks like it's been AI crafted, so it's garbled, but it does say that ALRRM is "a new strike class for 5th gen fighters that is stealth-borne, near-hypersonic, and deep-theater strike.”

Stealth-borne and Navy has to mean F-35 internal carriage.

https://investor.palladyneai.com/ne...idiary-selected-us-navy-develop-low-cost-near

 

[NMaude]

There are presently no time critical target weapons in USAF inventory since ARRW died.

Hasn't the AGM-183A been resurrected?

 

[quellish]

There seems to be a lot of discussion of SDB in this thread that is.... off the mark.
If you want to learn about the development of SDB, this is a good read:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/boeing-sdb-i-gbu-39-b.44198/#post-727755

 

[Kat Tsun]

Hasn't the AGM-183A been resurrected?

In inventory. IIRC it was supposed to be IOC last year or the year before.