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Airbus 300B Origins & Projects

Caravellarella

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Dear Alertken, thank you for such a concise analysis. I still find it disconcerting that this topic implies some link between the Airbus A-300 and the BAC 3-11 as both were unrelated competitive designs. The only thing they have in common is that the UK Government of the time refused to fund participation in either. It is like saying the McDonnell-Douglas DC-10 is the ancestor of the Lockheed L-1011 TriStar or vice-versa......

I feel like starting a new new topic on the Airbus A-300 :-\

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

Caravellarella

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hesham said:
Jemiba said:
Found in FlugRevue 6/1981,three designs of the german "Airbus Team", then consisting of
Bölkow, Siebel, Dornier, HFB, Messerschmitt, Flugzeugunion Süd and VFW.
Especially interesting the T-30-004 with its side extensions and paired engines above the wing.
By the way my dear Jemiba,

can you define each project belong to which companies ?,such as;

M-30 was from ...... and ..... companies
T-30 ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,,
T-25 ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,,
Dear Hesham, these German studies aren't unbuilt or projected members of the Airbus A300B family......

Although not a "project", here is a drawing which explains the relationship between the fuselage designs of the original A300B2/B4, the A310-200/300 and the A300-600 (strictly the A300B4-600). The drawing comes from a copy of the A300-600 technical definition manual......

Now, can anyone help me with the Hawker-Siddeley HS833 turboprop A300B "project" please?

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is an artist's impresson of the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord HBN-100 "project" in the pre-1968 BEA livery. It comes from this website......

http://www.afwing.com/intro/airbus/2.htm

which also shows a model in the later BEA livery (I believe this is model is of an Airbus A300B, probably the A300B7 version or a model of the final version of the A-300 "project" and is not a model of the HBN-100)......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is an editorial in French about the pros and cons of Anglo-French co-operation on any future high capacity "airbus" type short-haul airliner. It compares the the all-French Sud Aviation-Dassault Galion proposal with then current Hawker-Bréguet-Nord collaborative proposals (and their configurations) and their Bréguet and Nord predecessors. There are errors in the description of the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord collaborative proposals and the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord HBN-101 proposal is incorrectly captioned as the HBN-104.

The article comes from the 15th May 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, in my attempt to define what is a member of the Airbus A300 family and what isn't; here is my list of family members. it includes all the "projects" and the actual production versions that I know of......

Airbus A-300 – unbuilt “project”; a 300 seater that went through 2 design changes; powered by 2 Rolls-Royce RB-207 engines.

A300B1 – 250 seater prototypes with original fuselage length & with General Electric CF6-50A engines. (2 built).

A300B2 – short range A300B, fuselage stretched by 5 frame pitches (2.65 metres/8.7ft); produced in the following versions:-
A300B2-1A – with General Electric CF6-50C engines.
A300B2-1C – with General Electric CF6-50C engines.
A300B2K-3C – Hot & high version of A300B2 with additional leading-edge Krueger flaps.
A300B2-101 – with General Electric CF6-50C engines.
A300B2-320 – with Pratt & Whitney JT9D-59A engines.

A300B3 – unbuilt “project” for a long range version of the A300B1.

A300B4 – Medium-to-long range version of the A300B2 produced in the following versions:
A300B4-1C – Medium range A300B with General Electric CF6-50C engines.
A300B4-2C – Extended range A300B with General Electric CF6-50C2 engines.
A300B4-103 – Medium range A300B with General Electric CF6-50C1 engines.
A300B4-203 – Extended range A300B with General Electric CF6-50C2 engines.
A300B4-120 – Medium range A300B with Pratt & Whitney JT9D-59A engines.
A300B4-220 – Extended range A300B with Pratt & Whitney JT9D-59B engines.
A300B4-220FF – Extended range A300B with Pratt & Whitney JT9D-59B engines & A310 style cockpit layout.

A300C4-203 – Convertible A300B with large main deck freight door.

A300B4-600 – advanced version using A310 technology, design and components; fuselage cabin stretched by 3 frame pitches (1.59 metres/6.26ft) better known as A300-600.
A300-601 (A300B4-601) – Standard A300-600 with General Electric CF6-80C2 engines.
A300-620 (A300B4-620) – Standard A300-600 with Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7R4 engines.
A300-620C (A300C4-620) – Convertible A300-600 with Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7R4 engines.
A300-622 (A300B4-622) – Standard A300-600 with Pratt & Whitney PW4156 engines.
A300-605R (A300B4-605R) – Long range A300-600 with General Electric CF6-80C2 engines.
A300-622R (A300B4-622R) – Long range A300-600 with Pratt & Whitney PW4156 or PW4158 engines.
A300-605C (A300C4-605F) – Convertible A300-600 with General Electric CF6-80C2 engines.
A300-605F (A300B4-605F) – Dedicated freighter A300-600 with General Electric CF6-80C2 engines.
A300-622F (A300B4-622F) – Dedicated freighter A300-600 with Pratt & Whitney PW4158 engines.
A300-608ST (A300B4-608ST) – Beluga outsize freighter conversion with General Electric CF6-80C2 engines.

A300B5 – unbuilt “project” for a freighter version of the A300B1.
A300B6 – unbuilt “project” for a freighter version of the A300B2/B4.
A300B7 – unbuilt “project” for a larger “Anglicised” A300B4 to meet BEA’s requirements; fuselage centre-section stretched by 1 frame pitch (530mm/20.9in), wing span increased by 2.59 metres/8.5ft at wing root on each side and Rolls-Royce RB-211-61 engines.
A300B8 – unbuilt “project” for a lightweight “Americanised” version of the A300B2.
A300B9 – unbuilt “project” for a stretched high-capacity version of the A300B4; early version had a fuselage stretched by 16 frame pitches (8.48 metres/27.84ft) – led to TA9 "project".
A300B10 – unbuilt “project” for a smaller capacity version with a fuselage shortened by 14 frame pitches (7.42 metres/24.38ft) – developed into the Airbus A310 family.
A300B11 – unbuilt “project” developed from the Hawker-Siddeley HS149 “project”, long range version of the A300B with a shortened fuselage & 4 engines – led to TA11 “project”.

TA9 – unbuilt “project” for a stretched A300-600 with a new longer & more swept back wing – led to the A330 series.
TA11 – unbuilt “project” for a stretched A310 with the TA9’s wing but with 4 engines – led to the A340 series.
TA12 – unbuilt “project” for a stretched A310 with the TA9’s wing but with 2 engines.

Hawker-Siddeley HS142 – unbuilt “project” for a short range version of the A300B – no details known.
Hawker-Siddeley HS143 – unbuilt “project” for a long range version of the A300B – no details known.
Hawker-Siddeley HS148 – unbuilt “project” for a RTOL version of the A300B with a new wing (reduced sweepback, high lift devices) and RB211-24 engines – from 1971 – BEA specification.
Hawker-Siddeley HS149 – unbuilt “projects” for long range versions of the A300B with 4 engines. Using the larger wing of the A300B7 with extended wing-tips, shorter undercarriage and new General Electric ”quiet” engines; proposed in two fuselage lengths – led to A300B11 “project”.
Hawker-Siddeley HS833 – unbuilt “project” for an advanced turboprop version of the A300B – February 1976.


Terry (Caravellarella)
 

Stargazer2006

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Neat, Terry. Thanks for straightening out the mess and allowing to refocus on the topic's real subject! ;)
 

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If the A300B7 had a single-frame stretch over the wing root, then it also had an 8-frame stretch elsewhere in the fuselage. As FI said on 10 Sept. 1970, the RB.211-powered B7 would "have a 16 ft, 4.86 m longer fuselage." 16 feet is pretty much 9 frames. It would have carried 298 passengers, versus 262 then planned for the A300B2/B4.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1970/1970%20-%201920.html
 

Caravellarella

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carsinamerica said:
If the A300B7 had a single-frame stretch over the wing root, then it also had an 8-frame stretch elsewhere in the fuselage. As FI said on 10 Sept. 1970, the RB.211-powered B7 would "have a 16 ft, 4.86 m longer fuselage." 16 feet is pretty much 9 frames. It would have carried 298 passengers, versus 262 then planned for the A300B2/B4.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1970/1970%20-%201920.html
Thank you carsinamerica; I did wonder about the extra 8 frame pitch stretch. I don't know if this is stretched over the baseline A300B1 fuselage or over the longer A300B2/B4 fuselage (which has already been stretched by 5 frame pitches).

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

Caravellarella

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Caravellarella said:
carsinamerica said:
If the A300B7 had a single-frame stretch over the wing root, then it also had an 8-frame stretch elsewhere in the fuselage. As FI said on 10 Sept. 1970, the RB.211-powered B7 would "have a 16 ft, 4.86 m longer fuselage." 16 feet is pretty much 9 frames. It would have carried 298 passengers, versus 262 then planned for the A300B2/B4.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1970/1970%20-%201920.html
Thank you carsinamerica; I did wonder about the extra 8 frame pitch stretch. I don't know if this is stretched over the baseline A300B1 fuselage or over the longer A300B2/B4 fuselage (which has already been stretched by 5 frame pitches).

Terry (Caravellarella)
Maybe I should go to Brooklands to check; it is only 15 minutes' drive away......
 

Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, this is a topic about the original Airbus A-300 design "projects" (and not the Airbus A300B series which went into production). Here is an article in French announcing the development of the A-300; A for "Airbus", 300 for "300 seats". The collaborative venture consortium between Sud Aviation (37.5%), Hawker Siddeley (37.5%) and Arbeitsgemeinschaft Airbus (25%) had been agreed on 26th September 1967, but the aircraft design had been unveiled by July 1967.

This original A-300 design effectively combined the 6.1 metre diameter fuselage of the Sud Galion "project" with a reduced sweep (28 degrees) version of Hawker Siddeley's wing design for the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord HBN-100 "project" and the Rolls-Royce RB-207 3-shaft turbofan engine "project" or an uprated version of the Pratt & Whitney JT9-D turbofan......

The article comes from the 1st September 1967 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here are some pictures of a model of the Airbus A-300 "project". The design had been modified by 1968 and soon grew to have a larger 6.54 metre diameter fuselage (the second version of the A-300 "project") as Rolls-Royce were promising more thrust from their RB-207 engine "project" prompting Airbus to seek lower seat-mile-costs. This second version of the A-300 now had a very wide and blunt fuselage shape; it is probably the most well-known and widely shown version.....

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here are two images that show how "fat" this second version of the Airbus A-300 "project" had become by early 1968; the 6.54 metre wide fuselage was now even wider than that of the Boeing 747......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, the Airbus A-300 "project" began to run into trouble and was suspended in July 1968 (not made public at that time). The Treaty creating Airbus had stipulated that the airlines Air France, BEA and Lufthansa had to place a joint order for 75 aircraft so that construction could proceed; such an order did not materialise......

Here is a small piece in French which is the earliest evidence I can find that the A-300 "project" had been suspended......

The piece comes from the 15th September 1968 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, in a final attempt to make the original A-300 "project" more appealing to customer airlines Airbus altered the design in November 1968. This third version of the "project" had a new slimmer fuselage diameter of 5.97 metres (only slightly less than the fuselage diameters of the Lockheed TriStar and the McDonnell-Douglas DC-10).

The fat fuselage of the second version of the A-300 "project" had caused problems with drag over the blunt taper of rear fuselage. This was solved in the new third version of the A-300 "project" by introducing a new longer upswept rear fuselage design which was more finely tapered. The longer fuselage allowed Airbus to retain the offered 300 seat capacity. Note the proposed underfloor galley in the port-side forward fuselage......

Here is an extensive article in French about the third version of the A-300 "project" as presented to the airlines......

The article comes from the 15th November 1968 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Thank you very much for these posts!

Having just finished my scratchbuilt HS149, I had been contemplating doing the original A300 design, I just couldn't find any three views of it, your posts now solve that problem. B)

Cheers

Duncan
 

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Thanks, Terry! Wonder what designation Sud Aviation gave to the "Fat Julie" study...
 

Caravellarella

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Overkiller said:
Thank you very much for these posts!

Having just finished my scratchbuilt HS149, I had been contemplating doing the original A300 design, I just couldn't find any three views of it, your posts now solve that problem. B)

Cheers

Duncan
Thank you Overkiller. I think that the fuselage of the Heller 1/125 scale Airbus A300B2 kit will match the diameter of the second "fat" version of the Airbus A-300 in 1/144. The third version could be done with a 1/144 TriStar or DC-10 kit. The wing of the A-300 "project" in all three versions does not seem to very different to that of the production A300B except for the lack of trailing edge flap-track fairings and an apparent reverse sweep on the inboard trailing edge.

I have never been able to find accurate 3-view drawings of any of the three versions of the Airbus A-300; well none that were accurate enough for me to be happy to make a model......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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I think the Sud Galion would make a fantastic-looking model!
 

Caravellarella

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Stargazer2006 said:
Thanks, Terry! Wonder what designation Sud Aviation gave to the "Fat Julie" study...
I think you're a bit off topic Stephane, and I'm on someone else's Mac so I can't do a "e" with an acute accent. I'll check when I get home; but from memory "grosse Julie" was a covering term for a range of enlarged Caravelle or post-Caravelle Sud Aviation "projects"......

And, I haven't got around to starting my "grosse Julie" topic yet :(

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

Caravellarella

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Stargazer2006 said:
I think the Sud Galion would make a fantastic-looking model!
I started a separate topic which covered the Sud Aviation-Avions Marcel Dassult Galion called "Towards the Airbus - a French Approach" http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12325.msg120649.html#msg120649 ;D
 

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Dear Boys and Girls (to get back on topic), the original Airbus A-300 "project" was designed (to be so large) on the premise that Rolls-Royce would produce the new RB-207 three-shaft turbofan engine which was initially rated at 47,500lb thrust in Summer 1968's RB-207-3 version. The RB-207 was based on Rolls-Royce's work on the RB-178 engine which had been rejected by Boeing in 1966 for the Boeing 747. The RB-207 was effectively a scaled up version of the then 35-40,000lb thrust RB-211 which was being designed for installation on the Lockheed TriStar and was intended to be jointly produced by Rolls-Royce, SNECMA and MAN Turbo in a similar collaborative venture to that of Airbus itself. The RB-207 only ever had one intended application; the original Airbus A-300 "project".

Here is an extensive article in French about the Rolls-Royce RB-207 turbofan......

It comes from the 15th September 1967 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is a larger version of the only known artist's impression of the Sud Aviation-Dassault Galion "project", with a caption in French. It looks quite like a caricature compared to the published 3-view drawings......

The picture comes from the 15th April 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here are a pair of advertisements in French for the third version of the original Airbus A-300 "project"......

The advertisements come from Autumn 1968 issues of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is part of an article announcing that the Airbus Industrie TA11 "project" had been enlarged from the capacity of a slightly stretched Airbus A310 to match the capacity of the American wide-body trijets; a stepping stone on the road to the Airbus A340. The three-view drawing shows the TA11 "project" prior to this change......

The article comes from the March 1985 issue of Air Transport World......

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carsinamerica

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Finally! I finally tracked down a more specific reference to the A300B8 (the 200-odd-seat version for American Airlines):

The A300B8 was offered to American Airlines with R-R RB-211s in the 40,000-lb class, or with the "small" CF6-6 (as opposed to the CF6-50). The CF6-6 was used on the McDonnell Douglas DC-10-10. Aircraft size: same as the A300B1 prototype. Performance was described as "unspectacular" by Flight International.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1972/1972%20-%201897.html
 

Tophe

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Website
cmeunier.chez-alice.fr
(Source: Science & Vie magazine, Hors-Série Aviation 1981-90)
Comparison of size between the Airbus projects of 1981: TA & SA
 

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hesham

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Tophe said:
(Source: Science & Vie magazine, Hors-Série Aviation 1981-90)
Comparison of size between the Airbus projects of 1981: TA & SA

Great find my dear Tophe.
 

hesham

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From L+K 4/1966


here is the Nord N.600 drawings.
 

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hesham

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Hi,


it is the first time to heard about Ten-Eleven,I know one,two and three Eleven,how
know more ?.


L + K magazine
 

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Arjen

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hesham, that is an early image of the Lockheed L-1011 Tristar (1011 - ten-eleven) which was in no way at all connected with BAC designs with similar names.
 
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