Air Launched Weapons comparison

[Big_Zukini]

UK F-35B have 1 A2G weapon...Paveway IV
Typhoon has Storm Shadow, Brimstone, Paveway IV and, could, carry Enhanced Paveway II. APKWS is also now available, and Typhoon has a gun...which UK F-35B do not.

I'm not sure I'd class 1/6th of the available weapons as 'almost identical'.....

If we count the gun then all RAF pilots are issued a gun so it's 2 vs 7.

If we're actually serious, the Brimstone and Paveway are practically in the same category of stand-in LGBs. Brimstone has an mmW seeker that's only relevant against a narrow niche of targets, conceived in a different time. Hence the SAL mode was added.

StormShadow is not really manufactured as far as I'm aware, but was spent as donation to Ukraine. It most likely cannot be counted on as a high volume weapon.

I don't take very seriously the idea of using APKWS and a gun against land targets.
For all intents and purposes they are the same.

 

[timmymagic]

StormShadow is not really manufactured as far as I'm aware, but was spent as donation to Ukraine. It most likely cannot be counted on as a high volume weapon.

Production is still underway, albeit not in the UK. There are c400 Storm Shadow still left in inventory.

 

[Big_Zukini]

Production is still underway, albeit not in the UK. There are c400 Storm Shadow still left in inventory.

Illustrates my point. Thanks.

 

[Sintra]

If we count the gun then all RAF pilots are issued a gun so it's 2 vs 7.

If we're actually serious, the Brimstone and Paveway are practically in the same category of stand-in LGBs. Brimstone has an mmW seeker that's only relevant against a narrow niche of targets, conceived in a different time. Hence the SAL mode was added.

StormShadow is not really manufactured as far as I'm aware, but was spent as donation to Ukraine. It most likely cannot be counted on as a high volume weapon.

I don't take very seriously the idea of using APKWS and a gun against land targets.
For all intents and purposes they are the same.

1) The MBDA chaps at Saint Selles Denis would be surprised to discover that the missile that they are churning out in droves "is not really manufactured". The RAF might not have plans to buy more, but Storm Shadow is being built right now.
2) That Brimstone "niche" capabilty includes the ability to strike every land vehicle or anything that floats... thats an incredibly wide niche, never mind the range difference.

For all intents and purposes they are not the same, quite far from it.

 

[Ainen]

2) That Brimstone "niche" capabilty includes the ability to strike every land vehicle or anything that floats... thats an incredibly wide niche

It's effectively an air launched atgm. List of targets is wide indeed, but there's a solid reason it's the only such weapon in the world.

 

[Sintra]

It's effectively an air launched atgm. List of targets is wide indeed, but there's a solid reason it's the only such weapon in the world.

JAGM?
Maverick?

 

[Ainen]

JAGM?
Maverick?

Maverick is 6 times as heavy (lightest maverick warheads weigh more than entire brimstone), with only secondary role being engaging battlefield armored targets. JAGM is proposed for fixed wing aircraft, but didn't go beyond that.
Brimstone is a purpose made small aircraft ATGM, and remains an unique British weapon (+clients). In a same way as British manpads.

 

[JS23]

JAGM?
Maverick?

Don't forget Hellfire, which is still being made in parallel with JAGM, has multiple seeker options, and now also comes in naval VLS and MSHORAD flavors in addition to both fixed and rotary wing use.

Also, the Spike family of missiles, which is also getting adapted to seemingly every type of platform.

Basically, short-range light anti-armor guided missiles are a pretty popular genre right now, actually.

 

[Big_Zukini]

1) The MBDA chaps at Saint Selles Denis would be surprised to discover that the missile that they are churning out in droves "is not really manufactured". The RAF might not have plans to buy more, but Storm Shadow is being built right now.
2) That Brimstone "niche" capabilty includes the ability to strike every land vehicle or anything that floats... thats an incredibly wide niche, never mind the range difference.

For all intents and purposes they are not the same, quite far from it.

I'd love to hear what the production rate is, since it's apparently churned out in droves. So much that it covers Ukrainian demands and allows an expansion of British arsenal.

You're also entirely missing the point that British fighter aircraft do not have a diverse A2G arsenal. At all. And yet are built to be multirole.

 

[Titus K]

I'd love to hear what the production rate is, since it's apparently churned out in droves. So much that it covers Ukrainian demands and allows an expansion of British arsenal.

SCALP production rates according to the french defence minister : 240 in 2025, 360 in 2027.
https://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/dyn/17/rapports/cion_def/l17b2695-ti_rapport-fond

Alors que nous avons produit 240 missiles SCALP en 2025, nous avons fixé l’objectif à 360 par an pour 2027, soit une hausse de 50 %.
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While we produced 240 SCALP missiles in 2025, we set the target of 360 per year for 2027, an increase of 50%.

 

[Big_Zukini]

SCALP production rates according to the french defence minister : 240 in 2025, 360 in 2027.
https://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/dyn/17/rapports/cion_def/l17b2695-ti_rapport-fond

240 across all customers and when Ukraine is among the users is very low.

Tell me, do you consider the current A2G arsenal diverse?

 

[timmymagic]

So much that it covers Ukrainian demands and allows an expansion of British arsenal.

UK arsenal is not beinh expanded by Storm Shadow. UK intention is to retain SS for Typhoon until its OSD, but supplement with Stratus LO (the Storm Shadow replacement), Spear and other long range strike options.

You're also entirely missing the point that British fighter aircraft do not have a diverse A2G arsenal. At all.

No-one is arguing that UK A2G munitions are from a more limited set than they should be. Retirement of EPW II and III, non replacement of ALARM, no HW air launched AShM since Sea Eagle (although thats not really a major worry) and the failure to purchase a gliding munition despite multiple options/proposals for wingkits over many years (which could/should be partly resolved by SpearGlide to an extent if procured) have all left gaps, or emergent gaps haven't been closed. But there are movements in the right direction....unfortunately some areas (those related to F-35B in particular) are likely to remain open for some time, but are outside UK control.

 

[Sintra]

I'd love to hear what the production rate is, since it's apparently churned out in droves. So much that it covers Ukrainian demands and allows an expansion of British arsenal.

You're also entirely missing the point that British fighter aircraft do not have a diverse A2G arsenal. At all. And yet are built to be multirole.

The MBDA line at Saint Selles Denis never stoped building SCALP's and in 2026 is delivering quite a lot more missiles than before 2022, they were delivering a few dozens a year by the midle 2010's. Uk Stevenage was also reported (in 2025) to be resuming production.

You seem to be missing the point that sending a stealth cruise missile to a target 500 km's away, or destroying a vehicle/radar/whatever 50 kms away is a lot different to droping a Paveway IV.

If your original point was "the RAF dont have a lot of different ATG munitions" i would have not said anything, but that was NOT what you wrote.

 

[Sferrin]

Maverick is 6 times as heavy (lightest maverick warheads weigh more than entire brimstone), with only secondary role being engaging battlefield armored targets. JAGM is proposed for fixed wing aircraft, but didn't go beyond that.
Brimstone is a purpose made small aircraft ATGM, and remains an unique British weapon (+clients). In a same way as British manpads.

Wasp was probably the closest analog in the US but it was cancelled. Maybe too ambitious for the time.

https://designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-124.html

 

[Ainen]

Wasp was probably the closest analog in the US but it was cancelled. Maybe too ambitious for the time.

https://designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-124.html

This idea appears from time to time, but IMHO fast jet assault breaker ATGM is a very special/niche capability, which lost its meaning back in 1991.
Either a drone weapon is enough (much easier to achieve), or you want more warhead to massively increase the scope of use.
But in any case, I think @Zukini is more about that it's another shade of "stand in, precision/moving target".

 

[Sferrin]

This idea appears from time to time, but IMHO fast jet assault breaker ATGM is a very special/niche capability, which lost its meaning back in 1991.

On the contrary, nn 1991 the F-111 was performing exactly the mission the Brimstone was designed for, "tank-plinking" albeit with 500lb bombs instead of standoff missiles.

 

[Big_Zukini]

The MBDA line at Saint Selles Denis never stoped building SCALP's and in 2026 is delivering quite a lot more missiles than before 2022, they were delivering a few dozens a year by the midle 2010's. Uk Stevenage was also reported (in 2025) to be resuming production.

You seem to be missing the point that sending a stealth cruise missile to a target 500 km's away, or destroying a vehicle/radar/whatever 50 kms away is a lot different to droping a Paveway IV.

If your original point was "the RAF dont have a lot of different ATG munitions" i would have not said anything, but that was NOT what you wrote.

My original and reiterated point was that despite a very limited A2G arsenal currently, it is very unlikely GCAP would not be designed as multirole from the start.
Everything else is points made by other members, not me.