Aerospace Cooperation Opportunities Between Europe and Turkey

[snne]

I'm crossposting my post on the F-35 thread here in case it gets deleted.

Or...Hear me out...*a Europeanized Kaan with local European subsystems, à la the recent Leonardo-Baykar JV in Italy.*

https://aviationweek.com/defense/ai...leonardo-team-address-international-uas-needs

Baykar's Italian-built Kizilelma is highly likely to be part of the GCAP's future unmanned arm anyway... And with a local Spanish variant of the Hürjet AJT officially in the works, I do see ample potential for Euro-Turkish cooperation on the horizon....

As Turkey strengthens its aerospace sector with projects like Kaan, Kizilelma, Anka-III and Hürjet, there's increasing potential for cooperation with Europe. This thread is meant to explore possible areas for Euro-Turkish collaboration.

 

[had]

I found the proposed Leonardo-radar contribution to Akinci quite underwhelming and hope that won’t be the case for other cooperations.

Your KAAN suggestion sounds good at first, till you think about the US-engine problem. That is something I have missed in all the alternative European-fighter discussions here, like Gripen or KF-21.
In my opinion, Gen. 4+ fighters (with or without US-engines) can be a good stopgap F-35 alternative till GCAP is operational - FCAS too, if you believe in it. Mainly because I think, that the Russians have enough on their plate for the next 10 years to start something against NATO.

KAAN with a British/Turkish engine would be a great base for a cooperation though, especially if they can get rid of this Turkish regime.

Edit - I don’t want to spam too much in this new thread, therefore this addition:
In this case, politics are important for this topic. Europe wants to get more independent because of US-policy shifts. I see therefore the current Turkish regime as an obstacle for deeper cooperations – that is my opinion.
p.s. I didn’t mention an interference from outside

 

[snne]

KAAN with a British/Turkish engine would be a great base for a cooperation though, especially if they can get rid of this Turkish regime.

Whether you like Erdogan or not, regime change is rarely a good foundation for cooperation, especially if the country you're actively interfering in the politics of is a critical 'ally.'

In this case, Erdogan has nothing to do with our topic, as we're talking about a long-term cooperation between countries, not regimes.

We've seen enough of these regime changes by the West, fueled by hubris, over the past 35 years, and I think it's fair to say that the results have been simply horrendous...

 

[kqcke for you]

I found the proposed Leonardo-radar contribution to Akinci quite underwhelming and hope that won’t be the case for other cooperations.

Your KAAN suggestion sounds good at first, till you think about the US-engine problem. That is something I have missed in all the alternative European-fighter discussions here, like Gripen or KF-21.
In my opinion, Gen. 4+ fighters (with or without US-engines) can be a good stopgap F-35 alternative till GCAP is operational - FCAS too, if you believe in it. Mainly because I think, that the Russians have enough on their plate for the next 10 years to start something against NATO.

KAAN with a British/Turkish engine would be a great base for a cooperation though, especially if they can get rid of this Turkish regime.

Problem is that there is no european engine alternative and turkey is developing there own engine. Ignoring the second part we still have to find a engine end M-88 barley makes wet as mutch thrust as the General Electric F110-GE-129 dry. Ej-200 is still a bit aboth that but the proposed stage II/ EJ-230 capabilitys you ain't getting enough out of it. We also have the other problem of having to redesign the whole thing just to fit them.

 

[kqcke for you]

Problem is that there is no european engine alternative and turkey is developing there own engine. Ignoring the second part we still have to find a engine end M-88 barley makes wet as mutch thrust as the General Electric F110-GE-129 dry. Ej-200 is still a bit aboth that but the proposed stage II/ EJ-230 capabilitys you ain't getting enough out of it. We also have the other problem of having to redesign the whole thing just to fit them.

Just had a look and we're losing close to 3.780 Ibs or 1578,5 kg of weight, having a maximum diameter difference of 17,5 Inch or 44,45 cm and are 24,9 Inch or 63.246 shorter. Ignoring other stuff thats already lot to work with.

 

[SUPER=BUG]

Whether you like Erdogan or not, regime change is rarely a good foundation for cooperation, especially if the country you're actively interfering in the politics of is a critical 'ally.'

In this case, Erdogan has nothing to do with our topic, as we're talking about a long-term cooperation between countries, not regimes.

We've seen enough of these regime changes by the West, fueled by hubris, over the past 35 years, and I think it's fair to say that the results have been simply horrendous...

Actually, I don't really understand, so who is the best to work with

 

[snne]

Actually, I don't really understand, so who is the best to work with

That’s not the point.

We’re at a point in time where Turkey has more leverage over Europe than it ever had before. This happened because Europe and the US collectively decided to push Turkey around and cross its red lines over the last two decades, taking advantage of the comfortable position they found themselves in. Turkey, in turn, endured with its limited resources, and now it's time to reap the rewards.

 

[snne]

I'm crossposting my post on the F-35 thread here in case it gets deleted.



As Turkey strengthens its aerospace sector with projects like Kaan, Kizilelma, Anka-III and Hürjet, there's increasing potential for cooperation with Europe. This thread is meant to explore possible areas for Euro-Turkish collaboration.

For context (in no particular order):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897600443867345064

View: https://x.com/Rotorfocus/status/1897600443867345064

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897606402878627908

View: https://x.com/GarethJennings3/status/1897606402878627908?s=19

https://twitter.com/x/status/1870055212548780160

View: https://x.com/halukgorgun/status/1870055212548780160


Turkish Defence Industry Agency and the Spanish Ministry of Defence signed a MoU for Hürjet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1870043133213343960

View: https://x.com/Defensagob/status/1870043133213343960

"Türkiye’s Baykar and Italy’s Leonardo Join Forces for Drones

Türkiye’s Baykar and Italy’s Leonardo have announced the creation of a joint venture aimed at producing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

According to Leonardo and Baykar, the European UAV market is projected to reach $100 billion over the next decade.

The joint venture will be headquartered in Italy, with production facilities in both Italy and Türkiye to maximize efficiency and supply chain resilience.

The agreement strengthens Türkiye’s and Italy’s presence in the global defense industry, leveraging Baykar’s advanced UAV technologies—including the Bayraktar TB2 and AKINCI platforms—alongside Leonardo’s expertise in avionics, AI-driven technologies, and C4ISR systems.

Leonardo’s CEO, Roberto Cingolani:

Europe has a gap in unmanned technologies for various reasons, and in a complicated time like the one we are living in, it is fundamental to guarantee global security."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897616702667399490

View: https://x.com/clashreport/status/1897616702667399490

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897600443867345064

View: https://x.com/Rotorfocus/status/1897600443867345064

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897609827133583482

View: https://x.com/Rotorfocus/status/1897609827133583482

21 Smart Weapons integrated with Akinci UCAV so far;

View attachment 762441View attachment 762442
View attachment 762443View attachment 762444
View attachment 762445

MUNITION	Description	Weight (kg)​	Range (km)​
iHA-230	Larger supersonic air-to-surface missile, designed for extended range and enhanced payload, suitable for strategic targets.	230	150+
ÇAKIR	Cruise missile developed by Roketsan, offering precision strikes with low radar cross-section, capable of land and surface targets.	275	150+
TOLUN	Miniature bomb with GPS/INS guidance, developed by Aselsan for high precision against hard and soft land targets.	139	100
TOLUN-IR	Infrared-guided version of TOLUN, offering all-weather capability for miniature bomb strikes.	120	100
KGK-82	Winged guidance kit for MK-82 bombs, developed by TUBITAK SAGE, extending range for UCAV operations.	242	30+
KUZGUN-SS	Modular guided munition with winged guidance kit	85	40+
GÖZDE	New generation guidance kit for MK-82 bombs, providing high precision with INS/GPS/Laser for moving targets.	265	28
GÖKÇE	New generation guidance kit for MK-83 bombs, offering INS/GPS/Laser guidance for moving and stationary targets.	475	37+
iHA-122	Supersonic air-to-surface missile with advanced targeting capabilities	81	55
MAM-T	Smart micro munition by Roketsan, fixed wing structure for precision strikes at longer ranges.	95	50+
MAM-T IR/TV	Advanced MAM-T with infrared and TV guidance, enhancing targeting flexibility for various missions.	96	50+
MAM-L	Smart micro munition with laser guidance, effective against a range of targets with high accuracy.	22	30+
MAM-L/TV	TV-guided smart micro munition, providing precision strikes with enhanced visual guidance.	23	25+
MAM-C	Compact smart micro munition, designed for low-payload platforms, offering precision in close support.	15	8
LGK-81	Laser-guided kit, converts MK-81 bombs into smart weapons, enhancing accuracy for stationary and moving targets.	133	12
LGK-82	Laser-guided kit for MK-82 bombs, improving precision and range for air-to-ground missions.	242	20
HGK-82	Precision guidance kit for MK-82 bombs with GPS/INS, enhancing all-weather strike capability.	262	15
TEBER-81	Laser-guided kit by Roketsan for MK-81 bombs, increasing strike capability against various targets.	150	8
TEBER-82	Laser-guided kit for MK-82 bombs, enhancing accuracy for air-to-ground missions.	260	13 to 30 (with wing kit)
LAÇIN	LAÇİN is a smart guidance kit that can be used against fixed and moving targets with an imaging infrared seeker and tactical data link.	285	50
ELÇIN	Specific munition or guidance kit, details limited, assumed for precision targeting, similar to LAÇIN.	285	30
ALPAGUT	Smart Loitering Munition System	58	60

Missing from the list above, either missile is in development or they haven't gotten around to it yet

- BOZOK | Miniature laser guided bomb
- UMTAS | Anti-Tank Missile
- KUZGUN KY | Multipurpose Missile with solid rocket motor
- KUZGUN TJ | Multipurpose Missile with turbojet propulsion
- SOM-J | Cruise Missile
- iHA-300 | Ballistic Missile
- SUNGUR IIR | MANPAD adapted into short range Anti-Air Missile
- GOKDOGAN | WVIR air-to-air missile
- BOZDOGAN | BVR air-to-air missile

================================

Screen caps from;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO1m5lFJYqs

Following Leonardo products have been revealed to be added to the offered payloads of Baykar's UAVs:

• Skyward IRST
• Britestorm Stand-in Jammer
• Gabbiano surveillance radar

View attachment 762666
View attachment 762667View attachment 762668
View attachment 762669View attachment 762670

@Leonardo_live expects €600 million in revenue from its partnership with @BaykarTech by 2029.

Leonardo has published its 2025-2029 Industrial Plan. According to this:

*Leonardo will be able to integrate a variety of systems, including the Gabbiano radar, Britestorm jammer, Skyward IRST system, and Leoss E/O sensor, among others.

*Production is expected to begin in Turkey and Italy in 2026.

*Through the partnership, Leonardo expects an additional €1.1 billion in orders and €600 million in revenue during the 2025-2029 period.

View attachment 762673View attachment 762674View attachment 762675View attachment 762676

Spain is looking to involve Airbus to get their long-desired AFJT out of a new Hürjet variant with local Spanish avionics.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1897193888110313474

View: https://x.com/robeslo/status/1897193888110313474?t=d0oyFIrXrKeyp-XNaTgCpw&s=19

https://twitter.com/x/status/1899413679277326340

View: https://x.com/robeslo/status/1899413679277326340?t=ekr1G72Rf45i1ofGYT7wyQ&s=19

Spanish original View attachment 762785

Machine translated English View attachment 762786

 

[red admiral]

This thread is meant to explore possible areas for Euro-Turkish collaboration.

What do you think "collaboration" might look like rather than simply purchasing existing Turkish products?

 

[snne]

What do you think "collaboration" might look like rather than simply purchasing existing Turkish products?

As said, local production utilizing European subsystems for European use which is where most of the value is at. (As seen in the cases of Leonardo-Baykar JV in Italy and Spanish Hürjet deal)

I think this is a pretty generous proposal for people who are caught in the middle of a storm with their pants down.

 

[red admiral]

As said, local production utilizing European subsystems for European use which is where most of the value is at. (As seen in the cases of Leonardo-Baykar JV in Italy and Spanish Hürjet deal)

I think this is a pretty generous proposal for people who are caught in the middle of a storm with their pants down.

I wouldn't call that collaboration myself Vs licence production. One historical precedent would be the Shorts Tucano, as a licence produced Embraer Tucano with some modifications for UK service.

One big question in my mind will be around qualification and certification (of the Turkish UAVs in particular) for sign off by European regulators.

We'll see what happens

 

[had]

I’m sometimes baffled about the short-sightedness of some state representatives.
After years of excruciating attempts to overcome the exclusion in defence industry matters, they managed to be classified as a “normal” customer for western arms industries again.
Therefore, they will probably be able to buy F-16Vs and Eurofighters with Meteor missiles.
They are also on the brink of becoming a potential supplier of drones and aircraft to Europe, possibly aiming to become a strategic defence partner for the EU.
Then the Turkish regime reminds Europe of its real mindset with this…

To come back to the question of this thread. In my opinion, they will stay as a customer for mediocre defence products and could even sell some products to Europe/NATO where it makes sense.
Strategic alignments with Europe in arms production seems like a stretch for the medium term future. The odds are better with Trump and the F-35 collaboration.

Edit:
Again, politics are relevant because you are asking about a strategic defence alignment if you are proposing things like a common fighter. Like I said, buying and selling stuff is something else.
I don’t see a defence industry cooperation with China either, their democracy understanding is pretty much the same...

 

[ItalianAFDFail]

i have this opinion on the opportunity for collaborations, Turkey always tried to find alternatives to the foreign engines in the production of their drones and planes, for ezample Kizilelma was slated to receive a fully Turkish made engine, the current engine is the Ivchenko Al-25TLT, a Ukrainian engine, ideally the Ukrainians, British and French could produce an alternative to the US engines in necessity of airframes, the political issues with Turkey aside the opportunity should not be underestimated, apart from the result in the war the reality is going to be a lot closer collaboration between Turkey, Ukraine and most if not all the EU, Turkey has a lot of interests in keeping Ukrainian engine manufactury free as they're trying to get the engines not only for their drones but also for their new planned helicopter ATAK 2, a successor to EJ-200 is already in the works for GCAP; as an interim it is possible to fit french engines in the planes, with some convincing of course, the opportunities on missiles will be harder to acheive as well, the S-300s Turkey has could be replaced, the issue is ensuring Turkey does not share data with Russia, also to consider are the opportunities of Turkish missiles and rocketry, SOM-J was supposed to be compatible with F-35 in the internal bomb bay, say we replace American components in the F-35 with european made ones and we have an engine option, issue is that the engine is the RR-GE F-136, which at the end of the day still has collaboration with the Americans, that aside, Turkish drones are ok but for what Europe wants i belive they are not enough, Kizilelma is the most promising of them, but why buy Turkish if you could buy Airbus' LW drone? It would give a lot of options to people that can't afford a lot of advanced models, currently the Italian government thinks it can't afford new stuff but it's a lie based on their incapability of acquiring money and their fears of creating debt

for any and all excesses i apologize in advance, please let me know if i have to rewrite it as i'm trying to be as contextual as possible as i think the context for this is needed for us all, i spoke about Italy because it's where i live and where i can get most of the "detailed" information, as problematic as it can be thanks to lack of good info sometimes...

 

[snne]

I’m sometimes baffled about the short-sightedness of some state representatives.
After years of excruciating attempts to overcome the exclusion in defence industry matters, they managed to be classified as a “normal” customer for western arms industries again.
Therefore, they will probably be able to buy F-16Vs and Eurofighters with Meteor missiles.
They are also on the brink of becoming a potential supplier of drones and aircraft to Europe, possibly aiming to become a strategic defence partner for the EU.
Then the Turkish regime reminds Europe of their real mindset with this…

To come back to the question of this thread. In my opinion, they will stay as a customer for mediocre defence products and could even sell some products to Europe/NATO where it makes sense.
Strategic alignments with Europe in arms production seems like a stretch for the medium term future. The odds are better with Trump and the F-35 collaboration.

Europe interfering in Turkish internal politics, fueled by its typical hubris, is a thing of the past. I have plenty of reasons to hate Erd*gan myself, but you fail to grasp that this is entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The European Union officially cancelled the elections and candidacy in Romania. Europe manages to "maintain productive relationships" with some of the worst regimes in the world, so can you then explain to me why they can't have working relations with Turkey due to Erdogan's typical crap? You’ll think I’m bulls.htting when I say that the b.stard has, in fact, always been nice to Europe.


What I’m trying to tell you is that, when it comes to alliances and defense pacts, these things don’t matter at all.

Whether you like Erdogan or not, regime change is rarely a good foundation for cooperation, especially if the country you're actively interfering in the politics of is a critical 'ally.'

In this case, Erdogan has nothing to do with our topic, as we're talking about a long-term cooperation between countries, not regimes.

We've seen enough of these regime changes by the West, fueled by hubris, over the past 35 years, and I think it's fair to say that the results have been simply horrendous...

Like it or not, Europe needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Europe right now. Increasing the exports to Europe would be nice, but beyond that; Turkey knows that Europe will never offer anything compelling enough to make it essential for Turkey to maintain good relations—such as EU membership, which is never going to happen, nor does the Turkish population want it to happen anymore.

And let's not kind ourselves, it's not like EU membership today means what it used to mean back in those days.

Europe has already played all the cards in its hand back when it could afford to antagonize Turkey, and now it’s Turkey’s turn to (hopefully) play its cards right.

 

[red admiral]

Like it or not, Europe needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Europe right now.

I don't understand this, especially in this aerospace or defence context.

"Europe" also isn't a monolithic entity and there'll be significant differences between different countries. e.g Leonardo in Italy looking at a low risk low cost new product line in partnership with Turkey Vs BAES / RR in UK actively selling their products and services into Turkiye (Kaan)

 

[snne]

I don't understand this, especially in this aerospace or defence context.

"Europe" also isn't a monolithic entity and there'll be significant differences between different countries. e.g Leonardo in Italy looking at a low risk low cost new product line in partnership with Turkey Vs BAES / RR in UK actively selling their products and services into Turkiye (Kaan)

That’s the thing—I’m looking at the big picture, while you’re bringing up specific examples.

Overall, I do agree that both sides can benefit greatly from each other's strengths, but @had keeps bringing up Turkish internal politics as a counterargument.

@had Buddy, sorry to wake you up but the EU is not that democratic either. They also have amazing economic and diplomatic relations with some of the worst countries on the planet, so what stops them from improving relations with the official ally of most of their members—that is, except for their aspiration to meddle in the politics of other countries?

 

[kqcke for you]

i have this opinion on the opportunity for collaborations, Turkey always tried to find alternatives to the foreign engines in the production of their drones and planes, for ezample Kizilelma was slated to receive a fully Turkish made engine, the current engine is the Ivchenko Al-25TLT, a Ukrainian engine, ideally the Ukrainians, British and French could produce an alternative to the US engines in necessity of airframes, the political issues with Turkey aside the opportunity should not be underestimated, apart from the result in the war the reality is going to be a lot closer collaboration between Turkey, Ukraine and most if not all the EU, Turkey has a lot of interests in keeping Ukrainian engine manufactury free as they're trying to get the engines not only for their drones

They also are developing engines for that.

but also for their new planned helicopter ATAK 2

They have an engine in development

, a successor to EJ-200 is already in the works for GCAP; as an interim it is possible to fit french engines

M88 is too big for UCAVs and too small for jets

in the planes, with some convincing of course, the opportunities on missiles will be harder to acheive as well, the S-300s Turkey

*S-400

has could be replaced, the issue is ensuring Turkey does not share data with Russia, also to consider are the opportunities of Turkish missiles and rocketry, SOM-J was supposed to be compatible with F-35 in the internal bomb bay,

So we got JSM a mostly norwegian development

say we replace American components in the F-35 with european made ones and we have an engine option, issue is that the engine is the RR-GE F-136,

That would probaly take years and billions

which at the end of the day still has collaboration with the Americans, that aside, Turkish drones are ok but for what Europe wants i belive they are not enough, Kizilelma is the most promising of them, but why buy Turkish if you could buy Airbus' LW drone? It would give a lot of options to people that can't afford a lot of advanced models, currently the Italian government thinks it can't afford new stuff but it's a lie based on their incapability of acquiring money and their fears of creating debt

for any and all excesses i apologize in advance, please let me know if i have to rewrite it as i'm trying to be as contextual as possible as i think the context for this is needed for us all, i spoke about Italy because it's where i live and where i can get most of the "detailed" information, as problematic as it can be thanks to lack of good info sometimes...

 

[ItalianAFDFail]

They also are developing engines for that.

They have an engine in development

M88 is too big for UCAVs and too small for jets

*S-400

So we got JSM a mostly norwegian development

That would probaly take years and billions

thanks for adding to it, i tried to not make mistakes sorry

 

[kqcke for you]

I mean your not wrong just around a 10 years too late with it.

 

[ItalianAFDFail]

i mean i've tried to keep up with these developments but it's kinda distracting, expecially after i started uni

 

[snne]

I mean your not wrong just around a 10 years too late with it.

Indigenous long-range air defense is also no longer an issue, though an invitation to participate in future European anti-ballistic systems would be welcome as it would shorten the timespan.

 

[Combat-Master]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1917617575485161704

View: https://x.com/DefenceHQ/status/1917617575485161704

 

[Combat-Master]

OPINION - Turkish-Italian relations: 4th Italy-Türkiye Intergovernmental Summit

Turkish-Italian collaboration is destined to mark a new geopolitical direction that starts from South Europe and crosses the Mediterranean toward Southeast Asia - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr