About North Korea - Locked

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marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
marauder2048 said:
kaiserd said:
For other contributors unfamiliar with the US nuclear umbrella;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_umbrella
Many other links available....

Extended deterrence is fundamentally premised on sub-strategic nuclear weapons none of which
the US can deploy in the region because:

1. The DCA (and other) infrastructure was dismantled as part of the de-nuclearization of the Korean peninsula agreeement
2. The previous administration dismantled TLAM-N

There are other weapons, you realise?

Nothing sub-strategic (the basis for extended deterrence) and North Korea is uniquely prepared to resist a conventional attack.

Errr, remember those old fashioned things that the air force likes drop off it's aeroplanes? You know, free-fall bombs? ::)
Kadija_Man said:
You also realise that the DPRK doesn't have sufficient weapons to hurt anybody, except the ROK, seriously at the moment?

That seems to be a rather unfounded assertion.
[/quote]

All the evidence points to them having - at most - about 30 free-fall bombs (I suspect far less actually). They cannot even at the moment build the re-entry vehicle for use on a ballistic missile. So, do they represent a threat to Japan/Russia/PRC/ROK/USA? Not really. If you stopped and thought about this, you might realise that. The country that is most under threat is the ROK and nothing really has changed for them since 1953.
 
Triton said:
GTX said:
Arming oneself also with such weapons does not necessarily solve the issue. Instead of escalation why not try de-escalation or isn't that macho enough?

The United States and the international community have tried sanctions and diplomacy for 25 years to curb North Korea's nuclear ambitions beginning with the George HW Bush administration. Haven't we given sanctions and diplomacy enough time? Isn't it time to consider other alternatives however unpleasant they might be?

Sanctions have worked. They have curbed the DPRK's ability to build and militarise their nuclear weapons.

My question is. why does the DPRK feel the need for nuclear weapons?

Could it be because they remember the events of 1950-53 slightly differently to how the West does?

Nuclear weapons are weapons of last resort, not first resort. The DPRK is seeking a means to prevent "regime change". Your country has a long history of attempting "regime change". If the US stopped threatening the DPRK what do you think the outcome might be? If the US actually honoured it's promises regarding the DPRK's energy needs, what do you think the outcome might be?
 
Kadija_Man said:
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
marauder2048 said:
kaiserd said:
For other contributors unfamiliar with the US nuclear umbrella;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_umbrella
Many other links available....

Extended deterrence is fundamentally premised on sub-strategic nuclear weapons none of which
the US can deploy in the region because:

1. The DCA (and other) infrastructure was dismantled as part of the de-nuclearization of the Korean peninsula agreeement
2. The previous administration dismantled TLAM-N

There are other weapons, you realise?

Nothing sub-strategic (the basis for extended deterrence) and North Korea is uniquely prepared to resist a conventional attack.

Errr, remember those old fashioned things that the air force likes drop off it's aeroplanes? You know, free-fall bombs? ::)

Remember that I said that there are no support facilities for Dual-capable aircraft anywhere in the region. That
means a massive and impractical tanker chain for US based F-15Es.

Anytime we move strategic bombers equipped for nuclear weapons we have to notify the Russians which greatly
reduces their utility. And there's no way we're going to launch SLBMs or ICBMs



Kadija_Man said:
All the evidence points to them having - at most - about 30 free-fall bombs (I suspect far less actually). They cannot even at the moment build the re-entry vehicle for use on a ballistic missile. So, do they represent a threat to Japan/Russia/PRC/ROK/USA? Not really. If you stopped and thought about this, you might realise that. The country that is most under threat is the ROK and nothing really has changed for them since 1953.

ICBMs no but their IRBM RVs seem to be reliable and they have submarine fleet so even at the most rudimentary
30 free fall bombs put aboard their submarine fleet on a one-way journey seems pretty threatening.
 
NK have been the tail wagging the dog for a long time now, every time they want something they make threats. The difference now is that they have (Albeit not massively) a weapon of mass panic. The only real difference I can see is that the PRC has sided with sanctions rather than against which is a massive difference.

Time to consider regime change? Probably and while it is unlikely, my preference would be for a combined larger nation strike by the US, China and Russia. It is more than time for the North Koreans to learn the lesson of honey and vinegar.

[edited by Moderator for objectionable language]
 
Kadija_Man said:
Nuclear weapons are weapons of last resort, not first resort.

Hard to reconcile that view with what we know of US, NATO, Soviet and Warsaw Pact nuclear war plans.

Kadija_Man said:
If the US actually honoured it's promises regarding the DPRK's energy needs, what do you think the outcome might be?

The GAO report tells me that the US did meet most of its obligations but even then the North Korean's were diverting
some of the deliveries towards unauthorized purposes.

But the real question is why a country rich in coal and with access to coal gasification technology since 1945 (the Japanese
surrendered a fully functioning coal gasification plant) has unmet energy needs.
 
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
Nuclear weapons are weapons of last resort, not first resort.

Hard to reconcile that view with what we know of US, NATO, Soviet and Warsaw Pact nuclear war plans.

Once war has started, the plans change. Most countries however do not seek to fight a nuclear war if they can help it. Nuclear weapons prevent external pressure for regime change. The DPRK learnt that after the 2003 invasion of Iraq. If the Iraqis had had nukes, do you think the US would have attempted to overthrow Saddam Hussein? I doubt it. "You threaten us? We threaten you!"

Kadija_Man said:
If the US actually honoured it's promises regarding the DPRK's energy needs, what do you think the outcome might be?

The GAO report tells me that the US did meet most of its obligations but even then the North Korean's were diverting
some of the deliveries towards unauthorized purposes.

How "most" does not equate to "all", now does it? In reality, the US failed to meet the most important parts of it's obligations and failed to supply the DPRK with it's energy needs.

But the real question is why a country rich in coal and with access to coal gasification technology since 1945 (the Japanese
surrendered a fully functioning coal gasification plant) has unmet energy needs.

Errr, perhaps it was destroyed during the Korean War? Afterall, all industry, a large slice of the Korean population and most buildings were destroyed or damaged during that conflict... ::)
 
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
marauder2048 said:
kaiserd said:
For other contributors unfamiliar with the US nuclear umbrella;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_umbrella
Many other links available....

Extended deterrence is fundamentally premised on sub-strategic nuclear weapons none of which
the US can deploy in the region because:

1. The DCA (and other) infrastructure was dismantled as part of the de-nuclearization of the Korean peninsula agreeement
2. The previous administration dismantled TLAM-N

There are other weapons, you realise?

Nothing sub-strategic (the basis for extended deterrence) and North Korea is uniquely prepared to resist a conventional attack.

Errr, remember those old fashioned things that the air force likes drop off it's aeroplanes? You know, free-fall bombs? ::)

Remember that I said that there are no support facilities for Dual-capable aircraft anywhere in the region. That
means a massive and impractical tanker chain for US based F-15Es.

F-15s are F-15s, whether they carry nuclear weapons or not. F-15s are stationed in Japan, the ROK and Guam.

Anytime we move strategic bombers equipped for nuclear weapons we have to notify the Russians which greatly
reduces their utility. And there's no way we're going to launch SLBMs or ICBMs

And if the Russians are taking part in this conflict, on your side? The Russians aren't going to do more than protest about the movement of fighter-bombers.

The point is, nuclear bombs are still nukes. No need for TALM-Ns. Just use an F-15.
Kadija_Man said:
All the evidence points to them having - at most - about 30 free-fall bombs (I suspect far less actually). They cannot even at the moment build the re-entry vehicle for use on a ballistic missile. So, do they represent a threat to Japan/Russia/PRC/ROK/USA? Not really. If you stopped and thought about this, you might realise that. The country that is most under threat is the ROK and nothing really has changed for them since 1953.

ICBMs no but their IRBM RVs seem to be reliable and they have submarine fleet so even at the most rudimentary
30 free fall bombs put aboard their submarine fleet on a one-way journey seems pretty threatening.

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Their IRBMs appear to have nearly as many problems as do their ICBMs. As for their submarine fleet, as far as I am aware, none of them are capable of carrying SLBMs, let alone launching them.

Stop living in fantasy land and actually talk about what the DPRK has for a change. The military forces of the DPRK have been ordered to plunder their own farmers' corn crops because the Government cannot even feed them. Do you seriously believe they represent much of a threat to anybody other than the ROK? Really?
 
To interject for a moment, here's some more food for thought:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/north-korea-defies-predictions--again--with-early-grasp-of-weapons-milestone/2017/09/03/068ac20c-90db-11e7-89fa-bb822a46da5b_story.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/04/world/asia/north-korea-missile-test.html
 
Kadija_Man said:
A serious question for you - do you prefer the idea of a war, a possibly nuclear war over the idea that diplomacy might work? Does anybody? I don't and no one I know does.

Diplomacy work? Has it prevented them from obtaining nuclear weapons? Nope. Is it preventing them from developing ICBMs? Nope. What has diplomacy accomplished?

Kadija_Man said:
Sanctions have worked. They have curbed the DPRK's ability to build and militarise their nuclear weapons.

Of course they have. NK has no nuclear weapons and isn't developing ICBMs. Oh, wait. ::)
 
Triton said:
GTX said:
Arming oneself also with such weapons does not necessarily solve the issue. Instead of escalation why not try de-escalation or isn't that macho enough?

The United States and the international community have tried sanctions and diplomacy for 25 years to curb North Korea's nuclear ambitions beginning with the George HW Bush administration. Haven't we given sanctions and diplomacy enough time? Isn't it time to consider other alternatives however unpleasant they might be?

That's the point; all military options are shades of really terrible (and North Korea has spent well over 25 years making them so).
Hence plenty of alternative scenarios of military action have been considered and will continue to be considered; there are always the doomsday scenarios where North Korea miscalculates or as a last desperate act instigates a major escalating conflict.
This is not about ruling out military action in any and all circumstances.

However what is patently a very very bad idea is by choice (not necessity) the US instigating a doomsday scenario of attacking North Korea and make that regime's every paranoid fantasy come true and whose reaction would be as predictable as it would be terrible in human cost.

Some contributors here are extremely casual and callous with other people's lives in a way that is frankly disturbing and makes the rest of us thankful that you are insignificant powerless men.
Of course South Korea, Japan and the US have emergency plans to undertake military activity to try to limit the damage if North Korea was to attack.
But to advocate the wisdom of instigating such a disaster ourselves while talking sagely about "acceptable loses" and fact-free downplaying of the damage North Korea has spent most of its history building the capability to inflict is lunacy posing as strength and conviction.
 
"South Korean defense minister raises idea of bringing back U.S. nuclear weapons to guard against North"
The U.S. had about 100 weapons like short-range artillery with nuclear warheads stationed in South Korea until 1991. Analysts have concerns about bringing them back

by Anna Fifield

September 04, 2017

The Washington Post

Source:
http://nationalpost.com/news/world/south-korea-raises-idea-of-bringing-back-tactical-u-s-nuclear-weapons-to-guard-against-north-korea

SEOUL – South Korea’s defense minister on Monday said it was worth reviewing the redeployment of American tactical nuclear weapons to the Korean Peninsula to guard against the North, a step that analysts warn – if taken – would sharply increase the risk of an accidental conflict.

Tensions on the peninsula remain high after North Korea conducted a huge nuclear test Sunday.

South Korea’s defense ministry said Monday that Kim Jong Un’s regime might be preparing to launch another missile, perhaps an intercontinental ballistic missile theoretically capable of reaching the mainland United States.

North Korea’s increasingly hostile threats, matched by the rapidly advancing ability to make good on them, has policymakers in the United States and in South Korea wondering how to respond.

South Korean Defense Minister Song Young-moo said that he asked his American counterpart, Jim Mattis, during talks at the Pentagon last week for strategic assets like U.S. aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines and B-52 bombers to be sent to South Korea more regularly.

“I told him that it would be good for strategic assets to be sent regularly to the Korean Peninsula and that some South Korean lawmakers and media are strongly pushing for tactical nuclear weapons (to be redeployed),” Song told a parliamentary hearing on North Korea’s nuclear test, without disclosing Mattis’ response.

A poll that YTN, a cable news channel, commissioned in August found that 68 per cent of respondents said they supported bringing tactical nuclear weapons back to South Korea.

On Monday, the day after North Korean conducted a nuclear test easily powerful enough to devastate a large city, Song appeared to throw his support behind the idea.

“The redeployment of tactical nuclear weapons is an alternative worth a full review,” Song said, echoing a position closely associated with conservatives in South Korea, not progressives like Moon Jae-in, who was elected president in May after vowing to engage with North Korea.

The main opposition Liberty Korea Party, which is staunchly conservative, last month added bringing American nuclear weapons back to its party platform.

The United States had about 100 weapons like short-range artillery with nuclear warheads stationed in South Korea until 1991. Then President George H.W. Bush signed the Presidential Nuclear Initiative and withdrew all naval and land-based tactical nuclear weapons that had been deployed abroad.

Shortly after, the two Koreas signed an agreement committing to making the peninsula nuclear weapons-free – a deal that North Korea violated by developing nuclear weapons. But Pyongyang has maintained that Seoul has also broken its promise because remaining under the U.S. nuclear umbrella is tantamount, it says, to having nuclear weapons.

After the defense minister spoke at the hearing, the South Korean president’s office said that it was not considering redeploying tactical nuclear weapons. “Our government’s firm stance on the nuclear-free peninsula remains unchanged,” said Kim Dong-jo, a spokesman for Moon.

Military experts in the United States are almost universally opposed to the idea of deploying strategic or tactical weapons in South Korea. The distinction between tactical and strategic weapons is mostly about range, but in reality anything with a nuclear warhead should be considered strategic, said Catherine Dill of the Center for Nonproliferation Studies in Monterey, Calif.

“The thing that most concerns me about redeployment is that it introduces more room for miscalculation or unintended escalation,” she said.

In that situation, the ability to react more quickly could be a negative factor.

From the perspective of the military alliance between the United States and South Korea, having long-range ballistic missiles or strategic bombers are “perfectly sufficient” to continue to deter North Korea, Dill said.

As alliance partners, the United States and South Korean militaries work in close cooperation in South Korea, regularly conducting drills together. This includes sending “strategic assets” like bombers stationed on the Pacific Island of Guam and aircraft carriers to South Korea on a regular basis.

As the North Korean threat has increased this year, the United States has sent F-35 stealth aircraft and other strike fighters on flyovers across the southern half of the peninsula in a not-so-thinly veiled warning to Kim. U.S. Pacific Command even released photos last week of B-1B Lancers dropping bombs on a range on the southern side of the demilitarized zone that separates the two Koreas.

But a growing number of policymakers in Seoul say that Guam is too far away and that, if it comes under attack from North Korea, South Korea can’t wait the two-plus hours it would take American bombers to arrive from their base in the Pacific.

“We need these strategic or tactical assets that can destroy North Korea’s nuclear-capable missiles before they can inflict harm on us,” said Chun Yung-woo, a nuclear expert and former South Korean national security adviser.

“Right now they can retaliate but by that time, tens of thousands of people might have been killed,” Chun said. “We need a first layer of offensive weapons stationed closer to North Korea’s nuclear and missile sites.”

South Korea has been also flexing its military muscles by itself in response to North Korea’s provocations, practicing strikes on the North Korean nuclear test site at Punggye-ri at dawn Monday.

The South Korean military calculated the distance to the site and practiced having F-15 jet fighters accurately hit the target, the Joint Chiefs of Staff said.

The South Korean air force would stage a live-fire drill, launching Taurus air-to-surface guided missiles from F-15K fighter jets, later this month, the defense ministry said Monday. The missiles have a range of 300 miles – enough to carry out precision strikes on North Korea’s key nuclear and missile sites.

The ministry also said it had seen signs of preparation for another ballistic missile launch and South Korea’s national intelligence service told lawmakers that it could be another intercontinental ballistic missile.

“There is a possibility that the North could make additional provocations by firing an ICBM toward the northern Pacific,” Kim Byung-kee, a ruling party lawmaker, after being briefed by agency staff, according to the Yonhap News Agency.
 
https://www.stripes.com/s-korea-ready-to-install-4-more-launchers-to-complete-thaad-deployment-1.485943#.Wa3J98aQw2y
 
Kadija_Man said:
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
Nuclear weapons are weapons of last resort, not first resort.

Hard to reconcile that view with what we know of US, NATO, Soviet and Warsaw Pact nuclear war plans.

Once war has started, the plans change. Most countries however do not seek to fight a nuclear war if they can help it.

A counter-argument based on a cliche? AFAIK, we don't have access to the nuclear war plans of most other nuclear powers.
So how can you make that assertion?

Kadija_Man said:
Nuclear weapons prevent external pressure for regime change. The DPRK learnt that after the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Their nuclear weapons program began long before that. The Clinton Administration was aware of the illegal HEU effort
(the Pakistan <-> North Korea missiles-for-HEU program that Musharraf later confirmed) as early as 1998.

All of this was in the midst of a famine in North Korea during which the US along with other countries
provided thousands of tons of food relief.

Kadija_Man said:
If the US actually honoured it's promises regarding the DPRK's energy needs, what do you think the outcome might be?
The GAO report tells me that the US did meet most of its obligations but even then the North Korean's were diverting
some of the deliveries towards unauthorized purposes.

How "most" does not equate to "all", now does it? In reality, the US failed to meet the most important parts of it's obligations and failed to supply the DPRK with it's energy needs.

"All" can't equate to "all" if there is an illegal diversion to non-energy needs now can it?


Kadija_Man said:
Errr, perhaps it was destroyed during the Korean War? Afterall, all industry, a large slice of the Korean population and most buildings were destroyed or damaged during that conflict... ::)

There's no evidence that it was destroyed. And in any event, North Korea had years prior to the large scale bombing of the North in
which to study it.
 
Kadija_Man said:
F-15s are F-15s, whether they carry nuclear weapons or not. F-15s are stationed in Japan, the ROK and Guam.

Only certain squadrons are nuclear tasked and to my knowledge none of them are based in those locations.
More to the repeatedly made point: there are no longer any nuclear weapons handling or storage facilities
in those locations and haven't been since 1991.

The only way to deploy nuclear weapons to the region is on strategic weapons platforms which bumps
into the Russia and China issues including the possibility of those powers warning the North Koreans if they are notified.


Kadija_Man said:
Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Their IRBMs appear to have nearly as many problems as do their ICBMs. As for their submarine fleet, as far as I am aware, none of them are capable of carrying SLBMs, let alone launching them.

Stop living in fantasy land and actually talk about what the DPRK has for a change. The military forces of the DPRK have been ordered to plunder their own farmers' corn crops because the Government cannot even feed them. Do you seriously believe they represent much of a threat to anybody other than the ROK? Really?

These weapons only have to work once. And military planning has to contend with possibilities as much as probabilities.
 
sferrin said:
Kadija_Man said:
seriously at the moment?

Much better we should do nothing until they can hurt anybody they want, right? Right? ::) ::)

Much better that we seek to hurt no one, be they Korean or Japanese or American. Right?
 
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
Nuclear weapons are weapons of last resort, not first resort.

Hard to reconcile that view with what we know of US, NATO, Soviet and Warsaw Pact nuclear war plans.

Once war has started, the plans change. Most countries however do not seek to fight a nuclear war if they can help it.

A counter-argument based on a cliche? AFAIK, we don't have access to the nuclear war plans of most other nuclear powers.
So how can you make that assertion?

Ah, so all the literature, all the movies which speak about the dangers of nuclear weapons and their use never happened? On the Beach, Failsafe, Dr. Strangelove, The Day After, Threads, When the Wind Blows, were never created and screened? All the magazine and newspaper articles were never published? All the academic works? Obviously all "designed to pollute your precious bodily fluids," right? ::) ::)

Kadija_Man said:
Nuclear weapons prevent external pressure for regime change. The DPRK learnt that after the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Their nuclear weapons program began long before that. The Clinton Administration was aware of the illegal HEU effort
(the Pakistan <-> North Korea missiles-for-HEU program that Musharraf later confirmed) as early as 1998.

All of this was in the midst of a famine in North Korea during which the US along with other countries
provided thousands of tons of food relief.

The point was that "regime change" did not enter the lexicon until 2003. Iraq was the example that proved the point. How is it going in Iraq, by the way? Such a successful campaign, all the American troops welcomed like in Western Europe in 1944-45, right?

Kadija_Man said:
If the US actually honoured it's promises regarding the DPRK's energy needs, what do you think the outcome might be?
The GAO report tells me that the US did meet most of its obligations but even then the North Korean's were diverting
some of the deliveries towards unauthorized purposes.

How "most" does not equate to "all", now does it? In reality, the US failed to meet the most important parts of it's obligations and failed to supply the DPRK with it's energy needs.

"All" can't equate to "all" if there is an illegal diversion to non-energy needs now can it?

Excuses, excuses. In reality the US didn't want to honour it's promises because the right-wing in the US found it "distasteful" to do deals with the DPRK. Why then make the promises? I've often read American claims that it never abrogates an agreement or treaty from members of the US Right. Really?

Kadija_Man said:
Errr, perhaps it was destroyed during the Korean War? Afterall, all industry, a large slice of the Korean population and most buildings were destroyed or damaged during that conflict... ::)

There's no evidence that it was destroyed. And in any event, North Korea had years prior to the large scale bombing of the North in
which to study it.

Ah, yes, "Ooops, sorry we bombed your industry and your society back to the stone-age."

Yes, we can always claim what they should have done, now can't we? Spike Milligan once quipped that "people who live in glass houses should not let down their trousers."
 
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
F-15s are F-15s, whether they carry nuclear weapons or not. F-15s are stationed in Japan, the ROK and Guam.

Only certain squadrons are nuclear tasked and to my knowledge none of them are based in those locations.
More to the repeatedly made point: there are no longer any nuclear weapons handling or storage facilities
in those locations and haven't been since 1991.

Station more ground guards and cordon off part of the bomb dump. There, you have your nuclear weapons handling or storage facilities. You load the bombs with the same equipment be it a conventional or a nuclear warhead. You're trying to hide from the fact that the aircraft can be moved there quickly and be used there easily. There is nothing special about an F-15E with a nuclear bomb onboard compared to one with a conventional bomb on it. You fly over the target, you drop the bomb. It goes bang.

The only way to deploy nuclear weapons to the region is on strategic weapons platforms which bumps
into the Russia and China issues including the possibility of those powers warning the North Koreans if they are notified.

Oh, dear, the dreaded Communist conspiracy strikes again.

Yet, we have Russia and China both starting to wash their hands of the DPRK. We have had in previous messages people suggesting one or both being "onside" in any future conflict. You cannot have it both ways, you realise?

Either they are with you or they against you. Which is it? The Cold War Warrior mentality would suggest that they are automatically against you, right?

Kadija_Man said:
Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Their IRBMs appear to have nearly as many problems as do their ICBMs. As for their submarine fleet, as far as I am aware, none of them are capable of carrying SLBMs, let alone launching them.

Stop living in fantasy land and actually talk about what the DPRK has for a change. The military forces of the DPRK have been ordered to plunder their own farmers' corn crops because the Government cannot even feed them. Do you seriously believe they represent much of a threat to anybody other than the ROK? Really?

These weapons only have to work once. And military planning has to contend with possibilities as much as probabilities.

None of their submarines carry SLBMs. Most of their navy is shallow water, littoral ships and submarines.

Their Army is plundering their own farmers' fields. It is equipped with 1950-70s equipment.

Their Air Force is for the most part composed of old 1950-60s aircraft.

How long do you really believe they would last against a US-ROK offensive?

I'd give them a week at most.
 
Kadija_Man said:
A counter-argument based on a cliche? AFAIK, we don't have access to the nuclear war plans of most other nuclear powers.
So how can you make that assertion?

Ah, so all the literature, all the movies which speak about the dangers of nuclear weapons and their use never happened? On the Beach, Failsafe, Dr. Strangelove, The Day After, Threads, When the Wind Blows, were never created and screened? All the magazine and newspaper articles were never published? All the academic works? Obviously all "designed to pollute your precious bodily fluids," right? ::) ::)

From what's been declassified, popular and academic material had no influence on the sober military professionals who wrote the nuclear war plans in the US, NATO, the
Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact. Feel free to point us to actual nuclear war plans that show clear influence from movies and magazines.

Kadija_Man said:
The point was that "regime change" did not enter the lexicon until 2003. Iraq was the example that proved the point. How is it going in Iraq, by the way? Such a successful campaign, all the American troops welcomed like in Western Europe in 1944-45, right?

The point was that the North Korean nuclear weapons program began long before "regime change" entered the lexicon.

Kadija_Man said:
Excuses, excuses. In reality the US didn't want to honour it's promises because the right-wing in the US found it "distasteful" to do deals with the DPRK. Why then make the promises? I've often read American claims that it never abrogates an agreement or treaty from members of the US Right. Really?

You did read the agreement right? It was "best effort" on fuel deliveries. But not submitting a presidential directive as a a treaty to the Senate for ratification makes
it very difficult to appropriate funds especially in the face of the rising costs of energy and North Korean diversion of the same.

In any event, the North Korean famine during the period was consuming the bulk of US attention and humanitarian aid.



Kadija_Man said:
Errr, perhaps it was destroyed during the Korean War? Afterall, all industry, a large slice of the Korean population and most buildings were destroyed or damaged during that conflict... ::)
There's no evidence that it was destroyed. And in any event, North Korea had years prior to the large scale bombing of the North in
which to study it.

Ah, yes, "Ooops, sorry we bombed your industry and your society back to the stone-age."

Yes, we can always claim what they should have done, now can't we? Spike Milligan once quipped that "people who live in glass houses should not let down their trousers."

In other words, you have no evidence. Just more slogans.
 
Kadija_Man said:
Station more ground guards and cordon off part of the bomb dump. There, you have your nuclear weapons handling or storage facilities. You load the bombs with the same equipment be it a conventional or a nuclear warhead. You're trying to hide from the fact that the aircraft can be moved there quickly and be used there easily. There is nothing special about an F-15E with a nuclear bomb onboard compared to one with a conventional bomb on it. You fly over the target, you drop the bomb. It goes bang.

This displays a complete lack of understanding of how dual capable aircraft are armed, flown, employed and maintained. There is very specific handling equipment for example.



Kadija_Man said:
Oh, dear, the dreaded Communist conspiracy strikes again.

Yet, we have Russia and China both starting to wash their hands of the DPRK. We have had in previous messages people suggesting one or both being "onside" in any future conflict. You cannot have it both ways, you realise?

Either they are with you or they against you. Which is it? The Cold War Warrior mentality would suggest that they are automatically against you, right?

Or they stay "neutral" and use their air defense and other sensors to broadcast the position and movement of all airborne traffic.
Such things have been known to happen.

Kadija_Man said:
I'd give them a week at most.

Since you like slogans here's one: "We'll be home for Christmas"
 
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
A counter-argument based on a cliche? AFAIK, we don't have access to the nuclear war plans of most other nuclear powers.
So how can you make that assertion?

Ah, so all the literature, all the movies which speak about the dangers of nuclear weapons and their use never happened? On the Beach, Failsafe, Dr. Strangelove, The Day After, Threads, When the Wind Blows, were never created and screened? All the magazine and newspaper articles were never published? All the academic works? Obviously all "designed to pollute your precious bodily fluids," right? ::) ::)

From what's been declassified, popular and academic material had no influence on the sober military professionals who wrote the nuclear war plans in the US, NATO, the
Soviet Union or the Warsaw Pact. Feel free to point us to actual nuclear war plans that show clear influence from movies and magazines.

What did President Reagan write in his diary after viewing the movie, "The Day After" for the first time? From Wikipedia:

Effects on policymakers

After seeing the film, Ronald Reagan wrote that the film was very effective and left him depressed.

President Ronald Reagan watched the film several days before its screening, on November 5, 1983. He wrote in his diary that the film was "very effective and left me greatly depressed,"[19] and that it changed his mind on the prevailing policy on a "nuclear war".[21] The film was also screened for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. A government advisor who attended the screening, a friend of Meyer's, told him "If you wanted to draw blood, you did it. Those guys sat there like they were turned to stone." Four years later, the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty was signed and in Reagan's memoirs he drew a direct line from the film to the signing.[19] Reagan supposedly later sent Meyer a telegram after the summit, saying, "Don't think your movie didn't have any part of this, because it did."[6] However, in a 2010 interview, Meyer said that this telegram was a myth, and that the sentiment stemmed from a friend's letter to Meyer; he suggested the story had origins in editing notes received from the White House during the production, which "...may have been a joke, but it wouldn't surprise me, him being an old Hollywood guy."[19]

The film also had impact outside the U.S. In 1987, during the era of Mikhail Gorbachev's glasnost and perestroika reforms, the film was shown on Soviet television. Four years earlier, Georgia Rep. Elliott Levitas and 91 co-sponsors introduced a resolution in the U.S. House of Representatives "[expressing] the sense of the Congress that the American Broadcasting Company, the Department of State, and the U.S. Information Agency should work to have the television movie The Day After aired to the Soviet public."[22]
[Source]

So, movies had "no effect on policymakers"?

What amazes me is that the Soviets caught onto what effects nuclear war would have well before the US Government did. What amazes me even more is that Reagan was apparently the first US President to think about it. How long do people think that nuclear weapons are "just a bigger bomb"?

A nuclear war would mean the end of civilisation as we know it. Once that threshold is crossed... It is something many here like to believe won't happen. That the world needs more nukes, not less - as long as they are American nukes. As far as I am concerned, all nukes are bad news.

Kadija_Man said:
The point was that "regime change" did not enter the lexicon until 2003. Iraq was the example that proved the point. How is it going in Iraq, by the way? Such a successful campaign, all the American troops welcomed like in Western Europe in 1944-45, right?

The point was that the North Korean nuclear weapons program began long before "regime change" entered the lexicon.

And why did they start their nuclear programme? Why? It is something you rarely if ever touch on. People don't beggar their nations for the fun of it. Not even Kim Jung Un.

Kadija_Man said:
Excuses, excuses. In reality the US didn't want to honour it's promises because the right-wing in the US found it "distasteful" to do deals with the DPRK. Why then make the promises? I've often read American claims that it never abrogates an agreement or treaty from members of the US Right. Really?

You did read the agreement right? It was "best effort" on fuel deliveries. But not submitting a presidential directive as a a treaty to the Senate for ratification makes it very difficult to appropriate funds especially in the face of the rising costs of energy and North Korean diversion of the same.

In any event, the North Korean famine during the period was consuming the bulk of US attention and humanitarian aid.

Excuses, excuses. America created this situation. America made the North Korea we face today. America did not honour it's commitments on the supply of energy to the DPRK. America has been hiding that fact for too long.

Kadija_Man said:
Errr, perhaps it was destroyed during the Korean War? Afterall, all industry, a large slice of the Korean population and most buildings were destroyed or damaged during that conflict... ::)
There's no evidence that it was destroyed. And in any event, North Korea had years prior to the large scale bombing of the North in
which to study it.
Ah, yes, "Ooops, sorry we bombed your industry and your society back to the stone-age."
Yes, we can always claim what they should have done, now can't we? Spike Milligan once quipped that "people who live in glass houses should not let down their trousers."

In other words, you have no evidence. Just more slogans.
[/quote]

The gasification plant was destroyed, initially by the retreating Japanese, then, once rebuilt by the USAF during the Korean War. It has since been rebuilt however it is only, at best 40% efficient in converting coal to petroleum products and fertiliser.

Further, because the DPRK is poor in metallurgical coal and relies primarily on Anthracite coal for its power needs, the gasification cycle is even less efficient. It has had to rely on imports of coking coal for it's smelting needs. Because upwards of 75 percent of North Korea’s coal mines were destroyed by UN bombings from 1950 through 1953, China provided considerable amounts of coal to the DPRK.

Slogans? Such a shame the facts refute you.
 
marauder2048 said:
Kadija_Man said:
Station more ground guards and cordon off part of the bomb dump. There, you have your nuclear weapons handling or storage facilities. You load the bombs with the same equipment be it a conventional or a nuclear warhead. You're trying to hide from the fact that the aircraft can be moved there quickly and be used there easily. There is nothing special about an F-15E with a nuclear bomb onboard compared to one with a conventional bomb on it. You fly over the target, you drop the bomb. It goes bang.

This displays a complete lack of understanding of how dual capable aircraft are armed, flown, employed and maintained. There is very specific handling equipment for example.

No, what it shows is that there are more than one way to skin a cat. You're think too ridgidly, too traditionally. Think outside the box! Flexibility is the key to success.

Kadija_Man said:
Oh, dear, the dreaded Communist conspiracy strikes again.

Yet, we have Russia and China both starting to wash their hands of the DPRK. We have had in previous messages people suggesting one or both being "onside" in any future conflict. You cannot have it both ways, you realise?

Either they are with you or they against you. Which is it? The Cold War Warrior mentality would suggest that they are automatically against you, right?

Or they stay "neutral" and use their air defense and other sensors to broadcast the position and movement of all airborne traffic.
Such things have been known to happen.

When and where?

Specifics, please. The circumstances.

The point is that there are many different positions a nation can take on an issue like this. Even your own.

Kadija_Man said:
I'd give them a week at most.

Since you like slogans here's one: "We'll be home for Christmas"

Good on you. You might be, if you're quick. Of course, we are talking about the US military here so I wouldn't necessarily hold my breath. Always remember to clear the ridges and the hills in Korean advances. Macarthur failed to and look what that got him... ::)
 
Kadija_Man said:
So, movies had "no effect on policymakers"?

That's your quotation. Not mine.
Policymakers don't write nuclear war plans. And the NUWEPs that followed the "Day After" (84 and 87) from the Reagan administration that informed
the war plans apparently only refined the targeting and the reserve forces. And introduced deliberate public ambiguity regarding launch on warning
which had become technically possible under Reagan.

No Soviet Leader participated in nuclear weapons release exercises after the mid-70's; Odom's analysis of Soviet war planning and interviews
with Soviet war planners confirms their views on the utility of limited nuclear strikes.




Kadija_Man said:
Excuses, excuses. America created this situation. America made the North Korea we face today. America did not honour it's commitments on the supply of energy to the DPRK. America has been hiding that fact for too long.

Naturally, publicly acknowledged uneven deliveries of heavy oil cause an apparently dependent (and starving) nation to illegally divert what's given
and develop a clandestine nuclear weapons program. That makes complete sense.



Kadija_Man said:

Wow a travel book with phrasing derived from the official North Korean history (except the "reduced to ashes" part). Surely that's definitive.

And yet, North Korea became the number one exporter of anthracite in 2013.
 
I know this thread is especially divisive and the opinions are firmly held. Both are a clear record of the freedoms and liberties that the majority of us live under. The North Koreans are living in a nation where these freedoms and liberties are not just absent, they are attacked by the state. These people are drip fed lies and propaganda that reduce them to the point of drones.

The North Korean state has been holding the rest of the world to ransom for a long time and this will not change until the North Korean state does. They will not be swayed by arguments or opinion nor by negotiation, they have simply got away with too much up to now. Would the US get away with deliberately sinking a Russian or PRC naval vessel? Yet the North Korean state does. Would any of the other world nation states get away with the public murder of a human being, in a public place? No, yet the North Korean state does. Hawks and Doves, descriptive terms for those who are pro or anti military action and yet this far too simplistic. Sometimes the call for military action is overwhelming and yet there are those who will say that military action is never justified. This kind of talk led to "Peace in our time". Appeasement cost how many lives? How much of the earth's resources and nations ruined for decades? Sometimes the need for action outweighs the call for more negotiation.

This is one of those times. The ideal result would be the Russians, PRC and USA taking out the NK tools for creating, storing and using methods of mass destruction while ensuring regime change. I am not suggesting that the NK nation has to go, just the current regime, allow the NK population to decide what they need and support them while they decide. This might mean nuclear weapons or it might not, hopefully NOT. More excuses made for the current NK regime will lead us to a much worse, much darker place than we are now.
 
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/4/s-korea-us-lift-limits-missile-payloads/
 
Grey Havoc said:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/4/s-korea-us-lift-limits-missile-payloads/

The miracles of "diplomacy" will result in a nuclear NK, SK, and Japan, with the lunatic in NK regularly threatening to nuke people. Awesome.

South Korea’s defense minister suggests bringing back tactical U.S. nuclear weapons


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/south-koreas-defense-minister-raises-the-idea-of-bringing-back-tactical-us-nuclear-weapons/2017/09/04/7a468314-9155-11e7-b9bc-b2f7903bab0d_story.html?utm_term=.d9059de2745f
 
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/09/05/north_korea_slouching_towards_bethlehem_112222.html

"Still, the big conclusions are relatively straightforward. First, North Korea’s nuclear capabilities are no longer constrained to the detonation of relatively low-yield fission devices. The days are over when we could depict the North Korean nuclear program as merely the equivalent of the US program in 1945. Second, when the results from the sixth nuclear test are placed alongside the large strides that Pyongyang has made recently in ballistic-missile development, we’re fast approaching a crunch point where something must be done to corral the North’s nuclear arsenal. A fresh bout of hand-wringing and garment-rending—even another bout of sanctions—is probably not going to give us much leverage on the problem."
 
sferrin said:
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/09/05/north_korea_slouching_towards_bethlehem_112222.html

"Still, the big conclusions are relatively straightforward. First, North Korea’s nuclear capabilities are no longer constrained to the detonation of relatively low-yield fission devices. The days are over when we could depict the North Korean nuclear program as merely the equivalent of the US program in 1945. Second, when the results from the sixth nuclear test are placed alongside the large strides that Pyongyang has made recently in ballistic-missile development, we’re fast approaching a crunch point where something must be done to corral the North’s nuclear arsenal. A fresh bout of hand-wringing and garment-rending—even another bout of sanctions—is probably not going to give us much leverage on the problem."

If we neglect the fact that NK's miniaturised H-Bomb might be hype, RVs are the last hurdle to deployment, with decoys a useful extra.
 
starviking said:
sferrin said:
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/09/05/north_korea_slouching_towards_bethlehem_112222.html

"Still, the big conclusions are relatively straightforward. First, North Korea’s nuclear capabilities are no longer constrained to the detonation of relatively low-yield fission devices. The days are over when we could depict the North Korean nuclear program as merely the equivalent of the US program in 1945. Second, when the results from the sixth nuclear test are placed alongside the large strides that Pyongyang has made recently in ballistic-missile development, we’re fast approaching a crunch point where something must be done to corral the North’s nuclear arsenal. A fresh bout of hand-wringing and garment-rending—even another bout of sanctions—is probably not going to give us much leverage on the problem."

If we neglect the fact that NK's miniaturised H-Bomb might be hype, RVs are the last hurdle to deployment, with decoys a useful extra.

It might be hype but, given the past 20 years, it's only a matter of time before they have the real deal on the current path.
 
Kadija_Man said:
Much better that we seek to hurt no one, be they Korean or Japanese or American. Right?

If it's an option, of course. However you're putting all your eggs in the, "lil Kim is a rational player who would never attack anybody" basket. I'm a bit more skeptical.
 
"North Korea’s nuclear test site at risk of imploding, Chinese scientist says"

If mountain under which last five bombs were ‘almost certainly’ detonated crumbles, radiation would leak across region, expert warns

by Stephen Chen

PUBLISHED : Monday, 04 September, 2017, 9:51pm
UPDATED : Tuesday, 05 September, 2017, 4:52pm

Source:
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2109725/north-koreas-nuclear-test-site-risk-imploding-chinese

The single mountain under which North Korea most likely conducted its five most recent nuclear bomb tests, including the latest and most powerful on Sunday, could be at risk of collapsing, a Chinese scientist said.

By measuring and analysing the shock waves caused by the blasts, and picked up by quake stations in China and neighbouring countries, researchers at the University of Science and Technology of China in Hefei, Anhui province, said they were confident that they were all carried out from under the same mountain at the Punggye-ri test site.

The team from the seismic and deep earth physics laboratory made the claim in a statement posted on their website on Monday. Its leader, geophysicist Wen Lianxing, said that based on data collected by more than 100 earthquake monitoring centres in China, the margin of error was no more than 100 metres.

Wang Naiyan, the former chairman of the China Nuclear Society and senior researcher on China’s nuclear weapons programme, said that if Wen’s findings were reliable, there was a risk of a major environmental disaster.

Another test might cause the whole mountain to cave in on itself, leaving only a hole from which radiation could escape and drift across the region, including China, he said.

“We call it ‘taking the roof off’. If the mountain collapses and the hole is exposed, it will let out many bad things.”

Sunday’s blast was followed by an earthquake eight minutes later, which China’s seismic authorities interpreted as a cave-in triggered by the explosion.

Not every mountain was suitable for nuclear bomb testing. Wang said, adding that the peak had to be high, but the slopes relatively flat.

Based on the fact that North Korea has a limited land area and bearing in mind the sensitivity of its nuclear programme, it most likely does not have too many suitable peaks to choose from.

How long the mountain would continue to stand would also depend on where the North Koreans placed the bombs, Wang said.

“If the bombs were planted at the bottom of vertically drilled tunnels, the explosion would do less damage,” he said.

But vertical tunnels were difficult and expensive to build, and it was not easy to lay cables and sensors to collect data from the explosion, he said. Much easier was to bore a horizontal tunnel into the heart of the mountain, but this increased the risk of blowing off the top, he said.

The increasing size of North Korea’s nuclear bombs was also making “topping” more likely, Wang said.

"A 100 kiloton bomb is a relatively large bomb. The North Korean government should stop the tests as they pose a huge threat not only to North Korea but to other countries, especially China,” he said.

Wang added a caveat, however, saying that the calculations made by Wen and his team could be wrong. Quake waves travel at different speeds through different rocks, so it was not easy to make precise predictions based on seismic data, he said.

In the meantime, Chinese authorities, including the National Nuclear Safety Administration, would continue to closely monitor every nuclear test conducted by North Korea, Wang said.

Radiation readings taken by the government on Monday showed nothing out of the ordinary.

Wen’s team estimated that the energy released in the latest test was about 108.3 kilotons of TNT, or 7.8 times the amount released by the atomic bomb dropped by the US on the Japanese city Hiroshima in 1945. It also dwarfed all previous bombs tested by the North Korean military.

A team of scientists in Norway estimated the amount of energy released by the blast at Punggye-ri on Sunday at 10 times that of the Hiroshima bomb.

Wen, who is also a professor of geosciences at Stony Brook University in New York state, did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
 
Yep, the current situation is entirely the fault of the United States. North Korea's nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs are entirely defensive to counter United States aggression. ::)

"What North Korea Wants"
by Steve Mollman
September 04, 2017

Source:
https://qz.com/1068894/what-north-korea-wants/

Make Korea whole again

Another aim of Kim’s might sound unlikely from the outside, but reasonable if you’re expecting to be in power for many decades to come: the withdrawal of US forces from the Korean peninsula. B.R. Myers, an American author and professor at South Korea’s Dongseo University, argues it’s important to look at the long-stated goals of the Kim dynasty. In a February interview with Slate, he said:

“Were Kim Jong-un to share our own leader’s love of slogan caps, his would read: Make Korea Whole Again. Unification is not just central to the North’s ideology, but the only sure and lasting solution to its security problem. That makes the nuclear crisis all that more difficult to solve. But we will never get anywhere if we don’t face up to the true and frightening nature of the North’s goals.”

As Myers sees it, Kim wants treaties with both South Korea and the US. The treaty with the former would require South Korea “ending its ban on pro-North political agitation.” The one with Washington would entail removing American troops from the Korean Peninsula. After that would come some kind of North-South confederation, followed by eventual North Korean rule. The better North Korea’s weapons, the better leverage it has to achieve such goals.

Long-term strategic thinking of this sort might seem at odds with the view that the Kim regime is scrambling to survive in the face of tough words by Trump and ever harsher economic sanctions by the United Nations. But Thomas Wright, an analyst with the Lowy Institute in Sydney, also sees a broader plan at play:

Ultimately, of course, few if any outsiders know what Kim’s real endgame is. “Anybody who tells you what North Korea wants is lying, or they’re guessing,” Jon Wolfsthal, a scholar in the nuclear policy program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, recently told the New York Times (paywall).

"And whatever plan Kim has might be doomed to fail, regardless. But there might be more of a plan, at least—with decades rather than years in mind—than many realize."
 
Kadija_Man said:
A serious question for you - do you prefer the idea of a war, a possibly nuclear war over the idea that diplomacy might work? Does anybody? I don't and no one I know does.

Sanctions have worked. They have curbed the DPRK's ability to build and militarise their nuclear weapons.

My question is. why does the DPRK feel the need for nuclear weapons?

Could it be because they remember the events of 1950-53 slightly differently to how the West does?

Nuclear weapons are weapons of last resort, not first resort. The DPRK is seeking a means to prevent "regime change". Your country has a long history of attempting "regime change". If the US stopped threatening the DPRK what do you think the outcome might be? If the US actually honoured it's promises regarding the DPRK's energy needs, what do you think the outcome might be?

Yes, I prefer war, including the possibility of a nuclear one. You seem to proceed from the assumption that North Korea's nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs are purely defensive. However, the end game of these programs is the unification of the Korean peninsula under the Kim regime. I am not prepared to throw South Korea under the bus as the price of your peace.
 
kaiserd said:
However what is patently a very very bad idea is by choice (not necessity) the US instigating a doomsday scenario of attacking North Korea and make that regime's every paranoid fantasy come true and whose reaction would be as predictable as it would be terrible in human cost.

Some contributors here are extremely casual and callous with other people's lives in a way that is frankly disturbing and makes the rest of us thankful that you are insignificant powerless men.
Of course South Korea, Japan and the US have emergency plans to undertake military activity to try to limit the damage if North Korea was to attack.
But to advocate the wisdom of instigating such a disaster ourselves while talking sagely about "acceptable loses" and fact-free downplaying of the damage North Korea has spent most of its history building the capability to inflict is lunacy posing as strength and conviction.

Perfectly stated.
 
Triton said:
Kadija_Man said:
A serious question for you - do you prefer the idea of a war, a possibly nuclear war over the idea that diplomacy might work? Does anybody? I don't and no one I know does.

Sanctions have worked. They have curbed the DPRK's ability to build and militarise their nuclear weapons.

My question is. why does the DPRK feel the need for nuclear weapons?

Could it be because they remember the events of 1950-53 slightly differently to how the West does?

Nuclear weapons are weapons of last resort, not first resort. The DPRK is seeking a means to prevent "regime change". Your country has a long history of attempting "regime change". If the US stopped threatening the DPRK what do you think the outcome might be? If the US actually honoured it's promises regarding the DPRK's energy needs, what do you think the outcome might be?

Yes, I prefer war, including the possibility of a nuclear one. You seem to proceed from the assumption that North Korea's nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs are purely defensive. However, the end game of these programs is the unification of the Korean peninsula under the Kim regime. I am not prepared to throw South Korea under the bus as the price of your peace.

Well said.
 
"OPINION | North Korea may actually want war"
by Buck Sexton, opinion contributor - 09/05/17 11:40 AM EDT

Source:
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/foreign-policy/349208-north-korea-may-actually-want-war

North Korea claims it is now part of the thermonuclear club, after successfully testing on Sunday a miniaturized hydrogen bomb capable of fitting on an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM).

Assuming the reports are true, the North’s most recent nuclear detonation wasn’t just another test on a growing list of Kim Jong Un's provocations. It was a major escalation in the nuclear face-off on the Korean peninsula. The world’s most belligerent rogue state going from fission to fusion weapons is ominous to say the least.

Top U.S. national security officials appear to believe this time is different, and time is running short. Usually North Korea discussions sound like one long repetition of foreign policy cliches that always end in “no good options.” But in the aftermath of the most recent nuclear test, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley slipped in a somewhat stunning statement to the Security Council. She said that North Korea is “begging for war.” This point deserves immediate attention.

What if one U.S. administration after another has been miscalculating the Kim dynasty’s capacity for long-term strategy? What if war is exactly what Kim Jong Un wants and is waiting for?

There is a sobering case to be made that Kim isn’t just saber rattling for concessions from the international community, and it grows with each nuclear test. And while Kim increases his capability to turn a U.S. city into a smoldering, irradiated mass grave, we cannot afford to allow the same foreign policy groupthink to dominate the conversation. One thing that’s abundantly clear — what we’ve been doing hasn’t worked.

So why would the Kim regime actually desire a major conflict?

North Korea’s dedication to nuclear missiles tells us a lot about Kim’s bellicose intentions. There is nothing we can offer to make him abandon his nuclear arsenal. To be sure, nukes provide geopolitical status for a regime whose entire legitimacy rests on military power. As a dictator known to assassinate rivals with antiaircraft guns, Kim knows that nuclear weapons are the ultimate symbol of brute force. And they essentially eliminate any prospective military intervention into North Korea.

But North Korea doesn’t need nukes to prevent regime change. It currently holds South Korea hostage with conventional artillery that can be fired from north of the DMZ. Assessments of initial casualties from such a barrage are staggering and easily run into the tens of thousands in the first hours of hostilities. To put it simply, North Korea is not Iraq or Libya, even without any nuclear weapons in the picture.

So, it’s about more than regime survival. Nukes also provide strategic leverage for Kim’s long game against South Korea. He can stall for time with negotiations now, build up his nuclear weapons capabilities, and wait for the day when South Korea can ultimately be attacked and overrun.

Assuming Kim is a rational actor, he would have to avoid igniting massive American retaliation with such a strike. One of the only ways of achieving this would be to threaten nuclear retaliation against Tokyo or L.A., in an attempt to force us to abandon our allies in South Korea. That’s when nukes would become essential. And that may be why the Kims have been willing to pay such a high price for them over many years.

With a U.S. military presence of over 30,000 troops stationed in South Korea, this is not a realistic option for Kim today. If the North inflicted casualties on American soldiers under any circumstances, the response, to borrow from Secretary of Defense James Mattis, would be “annihilation.” Nobody seriously questions that.

But the cataclysmic struggle on the Korean peninsula could be years away. Perhaps Kim is waiting for the U.S. to finally withdraw its forces, or preparing for some pretext to take limited military action across the DMZ. An advantage of autocracy is that election cycles don't matter. The Kim dynasty has been able to dictate a strategy and pursue it for decades with a single-minded determination. Time is on their side.

This is also further reason to believe that nothing the U.S. is considering will change the long-term outlook on the Korean peninsula. If war is North Korea’s goal, diplomacy is just glorified delay. Sanctions may get tighter, but they have shown no signs of imploding the so-called “hermit kingdom” for over a decade. Regime change absent a massive invasion force is a think tank fantasy. Negotiations with the international community just look like concessions to those calling the shots in Pyongyang.

In the meantime, the security situation will only deteriorate. Kim’s nukes will become more devastating, his missiles more accurate and longer-range. And the U.S. and its allies will be left clinging to the hope that a fratricidal 33-year-old totalitarian ruler of a deeply xenophobic country with over a million active soldiers is, when push comes to shove, a rational actor.

Or at least more rational than his grandfather, Kim Il Sung, who decided on a massive sneak attack against South Korea in 1950 despite its status as a U.S. ally and the existence of our vast nuclear arsenal. Total casualties in that war reached into the millions.

Let’s hope Kim Jong Un won’t start a war everyone else knows he can’t win.
 
sferrin said:
Kadija_Man said:
Much better that we seek to hurt no one, be they Korean or Japanese or American. Right?

If it's an option, of course. However you're putting all your eggs in the, "lil Kim is a rational player who would never attack anybody" basket. I'm a bit more skeptical.

That is your choice. However, please stop running 'round like the sky is falling. Deterrence has not failed. Kim is well aware of the consequences of him actually using his nukes in any manner than as "weapons of last defence". His aim is the continuance of the DPRK with him and his descendants as it's leader. Using nukes will without a doubt bring down nuclear fire on his nation and his head. Despite your attempts to portray Kim Jung Un as a "lunatic" and "insane" is he is anything but. Your el Presidente OTOH? I'm not so sure about... ::)
 
Triton said:
Yep, the current situation is entirely the fault of the United States. North Korea's nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs are entirely defensive to counter United States aggression. ::)

You have hard evidence to the contrary? ::)
 
Triton said:
Kadija_Man said:
A serious question for you - do you prefer the idea of a war, a possibly nuclear war over the idea that diplomacy might work? Does anybody? I don't and no one I know does.

Sanctions have worked. They have curbed the DPRK's ability to build and militarise their nuclear weapons.

My question is. why does the DPRK feel the need for nuclear weapons?

Could it be because they remember the events of 1950-53 slightly differently to how the West does?

Nuclear weapons are weapons of last resort, not first resort. The DPRK is seeking a means to prevent "regime change". Your country has a long history of attempting "regime change". If the US stopped threatening the DPRK what do you think the outcome might be? If the US actually honoured it's promises regarding the DPRK's energy needs, what do you think the outcome might be?

Yes, I prefer war, including the possibility of a nuclear one. You seem to proceed from the assumption that North Korea's nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs are purely defensive. However, the end game of these programs is the unification of the Korean peninsula under the Kim regime. I am not prepared to throw South Korea under the bus as the price of your peace.

Somebody mentioned "slogans" in another post. Please present some evidence - real, verifiable, evidence. ::)
 
Peace in our time worked well in 1938, except it didn't.
 
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