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A-67 COIN aircraft

hesham

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Hi,

The US aircraft's new look A-67 Dragon borrows from design
of Embraer Tucano,the A-67 is single seat low cost counter-
insurgency aircraft,powered by one 1600 hp P&W Canada
PT6A-68/3 turboprop engine and estimated maximum cruising
speed is 590 km/h.
 

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Sundog

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That's a cool looking design, but I have to say I don't see much of a relationship with the Tucano in it. It looks like it borrows more of it's design aesthetic from Piper aircraft/John Thorp designs than anything else.
 

Sundog

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Also, I find it interesting that the Rutan ARES, or a version of it, isn't being considered.

However, it's very true the USAF does not like COIN aircraft. Look at how many years they've been trying to get rid of the A-10, but can't, because it's too good at what it does. Granted, it's a bit big for the COIN role, but you get my point.

I really think it is time to let Army Aviation have fixed wing aircraft again in the combat role and let them handle it. Afterall, it's a job they WANT to do.
 

CammNut

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hesham said:
US Aircraft's new look A-67 Dragon borrows from design
of Embraer Tucano.

Ha, I will frustrate your efforts by posting this and turning it into a secret project. This is an impression of the new-look A-67, which does indeed look like a Tucano...

It is from here:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/03/13/212539/us-aircraft-taps-tucanos-former-designer-for-new-look-a-67.html

The US meanwhile has launched its search for a new counter-insurgency aircraft to be operated by the Iraqis. The favourite is the T-6A in the armed version supplied to Greece.

See here:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/04/213671/us-air-force-starts-bidding-for-iraqi-counter-insurgency-aircraft.html

Okay, now it can go back into the general aerospace discussion...
 

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Jemiba

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The similarity of the twin seat version to the Tucano is obvious,
you're right. But for the single seat COIN aircraft, you need more
phantasy, as the back is substantially higher.
And who tried turn it into a secret project ? It's just quite unknown,
at least lesser known, than many real "secret projects" ! ;D
 

CammNut

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The original side-by-side A-67, a picture of which hesham posted to start this thread, was designed and built for US Aircraft by a warbird restorer. After the first flight ended with a gear collapse, US Aircraft had second thoughts and started working with Geometra in Brazil on an aircraft designed by the former chief designer of Embraer's Tucano (the one seen above). No sign of any hardware yet...
 

hesham

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Hi,

And may be the future COIN aircraft will look like that
aircraft from Stavatti Machete SM-27 and SM-47.
 

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CammNut

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Disclaimer - I am not saying these guys will every produce anything - but here are the latest images of US Aircraft's Brazilian-designed A-67 Dragon (version 2.0)...
 

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Sundog

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Just to be clear, CammNut, what you show in those pics was designed by the same designer who created the Tucano for Embraer, but he isn't with Embraer, correct? So what I'm trying to figure out, is the Brazilian company he now works for making the offer, or is an American company basically subcontracting them to design the plane and then the American company would build it?

I'm just trying to figure out who is offering what. Also, have you seen any competing designs if there are any, besides the T-6b?
 

CammNut

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It is my understanding that US Aircraft has subcontracted the design of the A-67 to a Brazilian company, Geometra, formed by Ex-Embraer engineers - and that the aircraft is based on an existing design by Joseph Kovacs, who was chief engineer on the Tucano. But I have been able to track down that design, which some sources call the Kovacs K52. I have not found out much about Geometra, either, except this from Flight International:

One Brazilian SME that believes it is well positioned to leap up the supply chain is Geometra, a design consultancy with just 12 employees that started in 1998 and which has ambitions to be "the second aircraft manufacturer in Brazil", according to its president (and ex-Embraer manager) Luiz Paulo Junqueira. The company - which markets itself as offering "total management of a project from conception to certification and serialisation" - designed the wing for the (now stalled) Eviation Vantage and is in talks with US Aircraft of Akron, Ohio, developer of the A-67 Dragon.
 

yasotay

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At the risk of sounding somewhat cynical, this is just what the world needs another turboprop tandem seat COIN aircraft. Could someone enlighten me as to whom this US company thinks is going to be its market? I mean if I were going to sell to the US (big market that!) I would have gone for something more like Rutan ARES. I suspect that it had somewhat better power/weight and agility.

While on the subject (apologies if off topic) goes anyone know where I might access reports on the flight qualities and capabilities of the Rutan ARES project? I have always thought (as an Army guy), that if the US Army were ever to get into the fixed wing attack mission (fat chance) that would have been the optimum solution.
 

TinWing

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yasotay said:
At the risk of sounding somewhat cynical, this is just what the world needs another turboprop tandem seat COIN aircraft. Could someone enlighten me as to whom this US company thinks is going to be its market? I mean if I were going to sell to the US (big market that!) I would have gone for something more like Rutan ARES. I suspect that it had somewhat better power/weight and agility.

While on the subject (apologies if off topic) goes anyone know where I might access reports on the flight qualities and capabilities of the Rutan ARES project? I have always thought (as an Army guy), that if the US Army were ever to get into the fixed wing attack mission (fat chance) that would have been the optimum solution.

Ah, but you have missed the real point of the A-67: loiter time!

The manufacturer quotes a loiter time of 11 hours for the A-67. This seems altogether incredible, but it does indicate a long endurance role that would be ill suited to turbofan powered alternative.

The A-67 is no a repeat of the ARES concept in any way. It is a more conventional COIN concept, more in the spirit of the old North American YAT-28E, than Rutan's unconventional, assymetrical intake, gun platform concept.

I also doubt that the A-67 is being seriously marketed to the US Army. Fixed wing, manned combat aviation will remains the the business of the Air Force. Current thinking encompasses a deployable squadron of dedicated USAF COIN aircraft, but not a major shift back to Army aviation. With the current policy shifts that are in the works, the A-67's time might have already passed.
 

CammNut

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US Air Force it is, both for special operations:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/07/02/215281/us-air-force-planners-want-irreguar-warfare-wing.html

...and on behalf of the Iraqi air force:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/04/213671/us-air-force-starts-bidding-for-iraqi-counter-insurgency-aircraft.html
 

yasotay

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I know that there are no plans by the U. S. Army to jump into that mission. Not with ARH-70 still with a question mark on it and having just received authority to continue toward more advanced Apache. Some might think it a viable mission for Army Aviation, but in the scheme of things I doubt the Army will want to pick up that mission financially or logistically (people and parts). That and the Army, from Generals to Privates all still love the A-10, they just want the USAF to have more of them, lots.

Loitering for 11 hours... that would be a REAL pain in the backside.
 

elmayerle

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yasotay said:
Loitering for 11 hours... that would be a REAL pain in the backside.

Not to mention needing quite the storage on the relief tube, or a good venting location for it that lets the outflow flow clear of the aircraft.
 

Sentinel Chicken

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elmayerle said:
yasotay said:
Loitering for 11 hours... that would be a REAL pain in the backside.

Not to mention needing quite the storage on the relief tube, or a good venting location for it that lets the outflow flow clear of the aircraft.
Then there's always the old naval aviator trick, poop in your glove. I did my residency training with a guy who used to be one of the flight surgeons for VMA-214 and he told me it wasn't unusual for pilots to land from long missions or deployments missing a flight glove or two.
 

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