26 inch US Torpedo for the seawolf class

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Cjc

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So from i have been able to find, the seawolfs torpedo tubes are 26 in in diameter, slived down to 21 in to handle the navys regular torpedoes.

And I have also been able to find that there was a program to create 26 in torpedoes in the 80's but have been unable to find information or pictures of it. That could mean that the project didn't get far, or that it incoutered technical difficulties and gust faded away. I think its the former but I have been surprised before.

I think the project was canceled because the only use case was for torpedoes that could sink huge Soviet ships (ie the big nuclear carriers sense the mark 48 could deal with the kirov or the Kuznetsova gust fine as far as I'm aware) or for the supersonic fallow on for the harpoon wich of corse never happened.
 
The only 26 inch torpedoes that I'm aware were the ones developed by the Soviet navy.
 
I asked a similar question on another board, now defunct, some years ago. The SEAWOLF class was fitted with large-diameter tubes for swimout launch of 21-inch torpedoes, reducing noise in their designed ASW role.

There was apparently no serious intent to develop 660mm torpedoes for launch from these tubes. It got suggested, but there wasn't much actual interest. One very short lived proposal after the Cold War was apparently to buy 65cm torpedoes from Russia....
 
As the requirements process drew to a close, the Navy leadership directed that the Seawolf class be able to accommodate a greater weapons payload than the Los Angeles class, in addition to having the capability to launch Tomahawks from its torpedo tubes. To accommodate yet-undeveloped larger weapons, eight torpedo tubes were planned, each 26.5 inches in diameter versus
the 21-inch tubes on previous classes.
Budget shortfalls led to the new, advanced weapons never being developed. As a result, the Navy has yet to take advantage of the larger-diameter missile tubes. As say, second was to facilitate swim-out launch of any future torpedoes, allowing them to be fired without the noise of a water ram or air turbine pump. The Mk 48 isn’t suited to swim-out due to its toxic exhaust products, but a “future torpedo” that used electric propulsion, for example, could swim itself quietly out of a tube without needing a positive discharge, allowing a very quiet engagement. If the torpedo’s a snug fit it’s difficult to do that, but an oversized tube or an undersized torpedo - like the old Mk 37, which was a 19″ torpedo fitted with guide studs to centre it in a 21″ tube - is able to do so. Utilizing a new air turbine pump system to expel the weapons more quietly than earlier water-ram methods, the new tubes are also capable of launching unmanned surveillance vehicles and even divers, should that be necessary.
 
mircomazzetti said:
As the requirements process drew to a close, the Navy leadership directed that the Seawolf class be able to accommodate a greater weapons payload than the Los Angeles class, in addition to having the capability to launch Tomahawks from its torpedo tubes. To accommodate yet-undeveloped larger weapons, eight torpedo tubes were planned, each 26.5 inches in diameter versus
the 21-inch tubes on previous classes.
Budget shortfalls led to the new, advanced weapons never being developed. As a result, the Navy has yet to take advantage of the larger-diameter missile tubes. As say, second was to facilitate swim-out launch of any future torpedoes, allowing them to be fired without the noise of a water ram or air turbine pump. The Mk 48 isn’t suited to swim-out due to its toxic exhaust products, but a “future torpedo” that used electric propulsion, for example, could swim itself quietly out of a tube without needing a positive discharge, allowing a very quiet engagement. If the torpedo’s a snug fit it’s difficult to do that, but an oversized tube or an undersized torpedo - like the old Mk 37, which was a 19″ torpedo fitted with guide studs to centre it in a 21″ tube - is able to do so. Utilizing a new air turbine pump system to expel the weapons more quietly than earlier water-ram methods, the new tubes are also capable of launching unmanned surveillance vehicles and even divers, should that be necessary.
Click to expand...

If you're going to quote someone else's work from another website verbatim, it's only polite to link them.

www.quora.com

Why does the Seawolf class have 660mm torpedo tubes? What weapons are these meant for considering that the MK.48 and tomahawks all fit in...

Paul Adam's answer: Two reasons, both to do with “future proofing”. One is a bit of “me too!” - the fUSSR used 650mm torpedo tubes on some boats for big carrier-killer wake-homing torpedoes and for large missiles like SS-N-16: at the point the SEAWOLF class was being designed, concepts for simil...
www.quora.com www.quora.com
 
I wonder how much more explosives a 26 in torpedo would have.
Mark 54 has 108kg TNT
Mark 48 has 293 kg TNT
26 in has ??? Kg of TNT

Still not sure one hit would destory a carrier though, freedman clames the forestall could take 6 or 7 1200 lbs torpedo hits before sinking (although that requirement came before under keel torpedos were created).
 
Cjc said:
I wonder how much more explosives a 26 in torpedo would have.
Mark 54 has 108kg TNT
Mark 48 has 293 kg TNT
26 in has ??? Kg of TNT
Click to expand...

The Russian Type 65 (25.6-inch diameter) has a warhead of about 450kg but I don't remember/can't find out if that is fill weight or total warhead weight.

The numbers reported are sometimes warhead weight, not necessarily explosive fill weight, and most sources aren't good about telling the difference, even thought it can be significant.

Also, torpedo warheads usually use something more powerful that straight TNT. TORPEX (42% RDX, 40% TNT, 18% powdered aluminum) was popular but is now replaced by things like polymer-bonded explosives (e.g., PBXN-103 in the Mk 48). These tend to have Relative Effectiveness Factors of around 1.5 compared to straight TNT.
 
mircomazzetti said:
As the requirements process drew to a close, the Navy leadership directed that the Seawolf class be able to accommodate a greater weapons payload than the Los Angeles class, in addition to having the capability to launch Tomahawks from its torpedo tubes. To accommodate yet-undeveloped larger weapons, eight torpedo tubes were planned, each 26.5 inches in diameter versus
the 21-inch tubes on previous classes.
Budget shortfalls led to the new, advanced weapons never being developed. As a result, the Navy has yet to take advantage of the larger-diameter missile tubes. As say, second was to facilitate swim-out launch of any future torpedoes, allowing them to be fired without the noise of a water ram or air turbine pump. The Mk 48 isn’t suited to swim-out due to its toxic exhaust products, but a “future torpedo” that used electric propulsion, for example, could swim itself quietly out of a tube without needing a positive discharge, allowing a very quiet engagement. If the torpedo’s a snug fit it’s difficult to do that, but an oversized tube or an undersized torpedo - like the old Mk 37, which was a 19″ torpedo fitted with guide studs to centre it in a 21″ tube - is able to do so. Utilizing a new air turbine pump system to expel the weapons more quietly than earlier water-ram methods, the new tubes are also capable of launching unmanned surveillance vehicles and even divers, should that be necessary.
Click to expand...
You do NOT shoot divers out the torpedo tube. The pressures involved will kill them.

The modern torpedo impulse pump, however it works, puts enough force to shove a 3500lb torpedo out of a 30ft tube at 50 knots.
 
Scott Kenny said:
You do NOT shoot divers out the torpedo tube. The pressures involved will kill them.

The modern torpedo impulse pump, however it works, puts enough force to shove a 3500lb torpedo out of a 30ft tube at 50 knots.
Click to expand...

It's interesting. That bit is an uncredited quote from Tom Clancy's Submarine, by John Gresham (he's the real writer on those). He probably was told that tidbit from someone, though it doesn't seem very credible. It is possible that the air turbine ram would let you dial down the impulse to a survivable level (probably more for UUVs than people) but why would you put divers through torpedo tubes when the Seawolf had an 8-man lockout chamber specifically for that reason?
 
TomS said:
Scott Kenny said:
You do NOT shoot divers out the torpedo tube. The pressures involved will kill them.

The modern torpedo impulse pump, however it works, puts enough force to shove a 3500lb torpedo out of a 30ft tube at 50 knots.
Click to expand...

It's interesting. That bit is an uncredited quote from Tom Clancy's Submarine, by John Gresham (he's the real writer on those). He probably was told that tidbit from someone, though it doesn't seem very credible. It is possible that the air turbine ram would let you dial down the impulse to a survivable level (probably more for UUVs than people) but why would you put divers through torpedo tubes when the Seawolf had an 8-man lockout chamber specifically for that reason?
Click to expand...
I mean, you can have divers just swim out the torpedo tubes, and before the Seawolf class it may have been faster to get divers out that way if you didn't have a Dry Deck Shelter. I mean, torpedo tubes are long enough that you can stack several divers into each one.
 
It's interesting to see that there is a significant discrepancy in how the tubes are described across various sources: I've seen 660mm (26 inches), 670mm (26.4 inches), 26.5 inches (673mm), and 30 inches (762mm). I vaguely recall that at least some of this is down to the difference between the physical diameter of the pressure-bearing tube and its effective diameter after various internal fittings like guide rails are accounted for. In a 21-inch tube, the actual diameter is about 22.75 inches (7/8-inch clearance all around), but the Seawolf tubes apparently have more clearance. So, it's unclear what the actual size of that upsized torpedo would be, but probably not 30 inches.
 
TomS said:
It's interesting to see that there is a significant discrepancy in how the tubes are described across various sources: I've seen 660mm (26 inches), 670mm (26.4 inches), 26.5 inches (673mm), and 30 inches (762mm). I vaguely recall that at least some of this is down to the difference between the physical diameter of the pressure-bearing tube and its effective diameter after various internal fittings like guide rails are accounted for. In a 21-inch tube, the actual diameter is about 22.75 inches (7/8-inch clearance all around), but the Seawolf tubes apparently have more clearance. So, it's unclear what the actual size of that upsized torpedo would be, but probably not 30 inches.
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I second this. I do wonder if the 26”, 26.4” and 26.5” discrepancy comes from the screwy way the Imperial system works. I think I’ve seen the 26” number more often though.
 
I'm a bit confused as to what the caliber of Seawolf-class torpedo-tubes are, are they 21", 26" or 30"?
 
NMaude said:
I'm a bit confused as to what the caliber of Seawolf-class torpedo-tubes are, are they 21", 26" or 30"?
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Definitely not 21. Somewhere between 26 and 30, depending on who you ask.
 
NMaude said:
I'm a bit confused as to what the caliber of Seawolf-class torpedo-tubes are, are they 21", 26" or 30"?
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There's a liner in them for 21" torpedoes.

I've always heard it as 650mm/26" tubes, but I suspect that is for the weapons they were intended to fire.
 

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