2022 Dallas Air Show disaster

Michel Van

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How the hell did the guy in the fighter not see the bomber?
he could not see the B-17
the Cockpit of P-63 Kingcobra has limited view
FhZAwvuWQAErQmQ
 
I hate to sound trite and cheerful and glass-half-full, but that could have been *so* much worse. They came surprisingly close to slamming into a well-populated shopping center.

Expect to see a push for a whole new regime of regulations. Other than grounding old warbirds I'm not sure what could have been done.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJzS6Sd8SvU
 
I hate to sound trite and cheerful and glass-half-full, but that could have been *so* much worse. They came surprisingly close to slamming into a well-populated shopping center.

Expect to see a push for a whole new regime of regulations. Other than grounding old warbirds I'm not sure what could have been done.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJzS6Sd8SvU

Horrible accident.

It's certainly an argument for better air traffic control at these events though, and minimum distances between performance areas at the very least. We've been doing this for well over 70 years now, we know how dangerous it can be.

Absolute tragedy.
 
That's only a minor detail compared to the losses in human lives but... that was probably the last P-63 is flying condition in the world. Among the very few P-63s left.
Same for the B-17s, not many of them left flying overall, considering the expense.

An immense waste and a huge tragedy. Happened in a few seconds.
 
Dissimilar speed limitation and crossing paths mitigation are well known factors of safety.

None seems to have been taken into account here.
As said above by @Orionblamblam, we are lucky the B-17 didn't kill anyone on the ground.

It reminds me the day a P-51 clipped in half a wing of a Skyraider (that did manage to land). Similar case but with an even much lower speed difference.

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That's only a minor detail compared to the losses in human lives but... that was probably the last P-63 is flying condition in the world. Among the very few P-63s left.
Same for the B-17s, not many of them left flying overall, considering the expense.

An immense waste and a huge tragedy. Happened in a few seconds.
There were four flying P-63s left (according to Wiki, not sure how up to date that list is up to date, as the aircraft involved, P-63F N6763 isn't on the list.

The B-17 involved was B-17G N7227C, 'Texas Raiders' of the American Airpower Heritage Flying Museum.

This of course comes just over two years since the loss of B-17G N93012 'Nine-O-Nine' of the Collings Foundation.
It seems 7 are left airworthy in the USA with 1-2 in Europe.
 
Situation awareness was lacking... That guy was not looking around at where traffic was before that turn. Horrific. Disturbing. Tragic. The guy knew for a fact limited visibility was an issue with his aircraft.
 
Turns out the NTSB has its own YouTube channel, here's a 13 minute briefing from today,

NTSB Media Briefing: Member Graham Dallas, Texas Mid Air Collision (13/11/22)

4 hours ago NTSB Board Member Michael Graham briefs media on the 11/12/2022 mid-air collision between a Boeing B-17G and a Bell P-63F, at the Dallas Executive Airport Terminal.

View: https://youtu.be/vxzMuG4iEUE


------------------------------------------------

Also worthwhile,

B-17G and P-63 Collide at the Wings Over Dallas Air Show - A Speculative/Cursory Analysis

--> Has CAF press briefing at end.

13 hours ago Hey guys, I don't normally do this but due to all the misinformation flying around the internet right now, as well as the media as well as the public offering unprofessional, ill informed and frankly insulting analysis/opinions on the situation that I felt I had to say something.
...
Second. There is now information about an ATC error committed by the airboss coordinating the display. During the turn the P-63 was going too fast and in too steep an angle of bank. Hence he was out of formation, due to the need to reform the airboss instructed the P-63 to overtake the B-17 to re-join. However as mentioned in the video, due to the steep angle of bank, the limitations of visibility in nose mounted propeller aircraft, and his position in the formation. This was absolutely the wrong decision. The 63 pilot was ordered to attempt a manoeuvre in relation to an aircraft he had no visual on. And the pilot attempted the manoeuvre despite lack of vision.

In such a crowded airspace, these small errors snowballed into the tragic events we've seen.

I'll continue to update this pinned comment as we get more information from the NTSB.

View: https://youtu.be/Sceufd1Xutc
 
The loss of aircraft and crew is always a tragedy. I was surprised on how easily the P-63 sliced off the tail section of the B-17.

I feel the Commemorative Air Force will be reeling from this loss for a long time.

At The Planes of Fame Air Museum in Chino, the loss of the N-9M flying wing and pilot can be still felt. For about seven years I watched the N-9M being restored. It was beautiful work and a labor of love. Jack Northrop’s son even visited and was allowed to sit in the cockpit. He was the splitting image of his late father.
 
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Situation awareness was lacking... That guy was not looking around at where traffic was before that turn. Horrific. Disturbing. Tragic. The guy knew for a fact limited visibility was an issue with his aircraft.
Cockpit visibility probably had very little to do with it. Over the nose visibility in a P-51 is probably worse than the P-63. Look at the relative cockpit placement to the nose and wing roots.

I've tried avoiding chiming in too much on this because I/we don't know enough details to make a judgement, and I want to avoid pointing fingers if possible.

What I absolutely know is that events like this are carefully choreographed. One of, or both, the planes was somewhere they should not have been.

My *speculation*: The Kingcobra is supposed to be flying his circuit following the other fighters we saw cut the inside of the circle. The bombers are all in a line, which *probably* means they were where they were supposed to be. My guess is the Kingcobra lost sight of the fighter he was supposed to be following, so he unloaded and took the turn wide to keep separation from the fighter. And if he's looking left (and "up" while banking) to reacquire the fighter, he wasn't looking in the right place to see the bomber, even if it wasn't below his nose (because, again, he's in a bank). Doesn't help that sun is over his left shoulder. Situational awareness definitely factored into it, by one or both pilots.

Regardless, the air boss and everyone in the flight is going to be interviewed thoroughly.

It's obviously a tragedy for a relatively small community.
 
I hate to sound trite and cheerful and glass-half-full, but that could have been *so* much worse. They came surprisingly close to slamming into a well-populated shopping center.

Expect to see a push for a whole new regime of regulations. Other than grounding old warbirds I'm not sure what could have been done.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJzS6Sd8SvU
While some sort of loss-of-control by the P-63 is possible, it doesn't look to me like the crash had anything to do with the age of the airplanes or that they were warbirds. At some level, the display was poorly coordinated.
 
Before I heard the chatter I
How the hell did the guy in the fighter not see the bomber?
he could not see the B-17
the Cockpit of P-63 Kingcobra has limited view
FhZAwvuWQAErQmQ
I think the idea was to make access to the cockpit more car-like…though you could get better visibility up front.

This plane never served with the B-17, so it could have been kept farther back to fly by itself with Soviet markings.

Having fighters OUTSIDE of bombers when making turns means the slower planes aren’t hidden by wings when in a bank.

The only light plane I would trust to fly at an air show inside a turn with heavies would be a shoulder-mount wing design ONLY. If I am in a Cessna to your port filming you in a B-17–then we can both turn left with caution…my wing tip nearest you goes up—your nearest wingtip to me goes down—and we have fuselage-to-fuselage line of sight.

Turning right would be a bit of a hazard so I hang back.

Maybe put go-pros with fish-eyes on wing tips and the tail to feed into a helmet so as to keep the cockpit in a classic design.

With that maybe you can loosen up a bit.
 
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The loss of aircraft and crew is always a tragedy. I was surprised on how easily the P-63 sliced off the tail section of the B-17.
The P-63 hit the structural weak spot in B-17G fuselage
That Section of B-17G has two large opening for machine guns
At those speeds, the entire B-17 is a weak spot. There's nowhere on a B-17 that wouldn't have been chopped to ribbons by the P-63's prop.
 
In August, the only flyable Hurricane Mk.IV was lost. Pilot did not survive.
My picture from about hour before the accident:
 

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An ongoing question: restore an aircraft to flying condition or restore it for static display? While it is great to have an aircraft in flying condition, sooner or later the risks outweigh the benefit of having it flying. Sadly, we seem to be losing too many aircraft from flying related accident.

Edit: sorry, didn’t mean to leave out the human cost of these accidents. What I meant was is it worth having these vintage aircraft still flying if the risk to both aircrew and aircraft (and possibly spectator) is too high?
 
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6 irreplaceable human lives and 2 irreplaceable relic aircraft were lost, and it could easily have been far worse. I am hoping the investigation is very thorough and if it concludes the status quo for the regulation of these air shows, these aircraft, or both is deficient I hope people pay attention.
 
An ongoing question: restore an aircraft to flying condition or restore it for static display? While it is great to have an aircraft in flying condition, sooner or later the risks outweigh the benefit of having it flying. Sadly, we seem to be losing too many aircraft from flying related accident.

Edit: sorry, didn’t mean to leave out the human cost of these accidents. What I meant was is it worth having these vintage aircraft still flying if the risk to both aircrew and aircraft (and possibly spectator) is too high?

I think one can't ignore the will of people to keep WWII aircraft flying. I can understand the limit of static display, aircraft are born to fly.

Warbirds have regularly crashed for as long as I can remember (the early 90's) I remember reading Le Fana de l'Aviation back then, and every month or two months was a noticeable crash or tragedy (I can remember Jeff Ethel death notice in 1997, the last flyable british Mosquito in 1995, and so many others). They are delicate machines from another era, and even with aces veterans pilots, bad things will always happen.

I remember wondering how could so many deadly crashes could still happen with the proverbial "modern technology" - but well it seems warbirds are warbirds, and even pampered with ultra modern tech by their mechanics, they still can do bad things once in flight. There is seemingly no workaround this, even with top notch mechanics, modern technologies, and lots of money thrown at them.

One heartbreaking example was France one and only flyable D-520s (among exactly four left by 1980). Veteran pilot Christian Bove in the late 70's fought teeth and nails to have it flying again, and he succeded... only to be killed by that D-520 a sad day of July 1986. At the end of an air show, just to add to the overall trauma.

Bottom line: those heartbreaking accidents robbing us of beloved pilots and wonderful aircraft have always happened.

Maybe that peculiar accident is different, depends from the nature of the initial mistake and what happened afterwards. Maybe the ATC or P-63 initial mistake was small, but, since it was a P-63 with all its limits as a warbird, it became that huge tragedy.

I will say something very stupid, but, starting from the same initial mistake perhaps a Pilatus PC-9 would not have collided with a C-130 Hercules the same way. But they are different aircraft from different times.
 
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Fashion or leisure flying tends to up the total tally. It was true post war. And still is today.

The problem is that we have no fast private jets that can offer the same amount of speed and agility and pilots do then take their fun with pieces of History.
 
An ongoing question: restore an aircraft to flying condition or restore it for static display?

The majority of flying warbirds only incorporate a token quantity of original material. The tiny amount of original materials alone isn’t very inspiring to look at and most people couldn’t even associate with the original aeroplane. Original material that’s not used is often in such poor corroded condition its not recognisable or if displayed gives the appearance of a junkyard, which maybe romantic to some, is seen as distasteful to many.

Most of the flying warbirds are making the best of very scant remains. The people doing it “pays their money and takes there choice” together with being grown up enough to understand the risks.
 
That's only a minor detail compared to the losses in human lives but... that was probably the last P-63 is flying condition in the world. Among the very few P-63s left.
Same for the B-17s, not many of them left flying overall, considering the expense.

An immense waste and a huge tragedy. Happened in a few seconds.
There were four flying P-63s left (according to Wiki, not sure how up to date that list is up to date, as the aircraft involved, P-63F N6763 isn't on the list.

The B-17 involved was B-17G N7227C, 'Texas Raiders' of the American Airpower Heritage Flying Museum.

This of course comes just over two years since the loss of B-17G N93012 'Nine-O-Nine' of the Collings Foundation.
It seems 7 are left airworthy in the USA with 1-2 in Europe.
The Wiki article IS up-to-date (as the B-17 article), as it lists this crash in its accident list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_P-63_Kingcobra#Accidents_and_incidents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Wings_Over_Dallas_airshow_mid-air_collision

After crash:
45 B-17s remaining (+6 nearly complete wrecks), 9 airworthy, 5 under restoration to airworthiness.
19 P-63s remaining (including 5 incomplete airframes in the UK), 4 airworthy.
 

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