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1973 requirement SOR 206 : AWACS competitors

boxkite

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Hi, it's my first day at the forum. So I want to ask for a very ordinary subject. Besides the later winner of the AWACS competition, the Boeing EC-137D (early_awacs_2.jpg shows an early configuration with radome mounted on the tip of the tail), there was another competitor, a DC-8 development. Is there a recommended article which describes this Douglas design (the lower one in early_awacs_1.jpg)? Did other competitors exist?
 

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boxkite

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Here is the other scan. Sorry for the bad quality.
 

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boxkite

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Btw, source of early_awacs_2.jpg is the German magazine "Der Flieger" 4/1969 p119.
 

Archibald

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I heard from "le fana de l'aviation" that the C-141 starlifter was also on the race. And aparently at the beginning the AWACS 707 was to have 8 podded TF-34 engines (a la B-52) !!!! :eek:
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Early E-3 concept

Source:
Air Force Magazine March 2002
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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DC-8 based AWACS

Source:
  • Mike Hurst Airborne Early Warning Osprey 1983
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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The initial AWACS specified command and control capabilities which led Boeing to study a 747 version to fit everything in. The airborne command post concept was later revived as the E-4, separate from the E-3 AWACS.

Source:
  • Mike Hurst Airborne Early Warning Osprey 1983
 

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boxkite

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Thanks for the quick response. Any idea of a design number for the DC-8 based AWACS proposal?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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According to Mike Hurst it was based on the shorter DC-8 Series 62, not the longer Series 63. I'm afraid he doesn't give any more details.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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According to this article:

http://members.aol.com/wskillman/AWACHIST.pdf

Lockheed proposed the C-141. I don't have any more information right now.
 

Thorvic

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overscan said:
The initial AWACS specified command and control capabilities which led Boeing to study a 747 version to fit everything in. The airborne command post concept was later revived as the E-4, separate from the E-3 AWACS.

Source:
  • Mike Hurst Airborne Early Warning Osprey 1983

Paul

Post up the 707 artwork from the same book, it should turn a few heads when examined

G
 

Sentinel Chicken

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Wasn't the original 707 AWACS proposal for eight TF34 engines in B-52 style pods? (The above illustration shows that, but it was the same engine that ended up powering the A-10, S-3, and the CRJ series regional jets.
 

Archibald

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This picture was in Le Fana article I mentionned. And the engines were the TF-34...
 

Antonio

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Hallo Boxkite ;)

Nice to see you here!

There is a nice article on AWACS origins at Air Enthusiast December 2005 I think. I'll post more info tomorrow
If you're interested on it just let me know.

Antonio
 

Deino

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pometablava said:
There is a nice article on AWACS origins at Air Enthusiast December 2005 I think. I'll post more info tomorrow

Yep ... here it is ... esp. my favourite picture !!

Cheers, Deino ;)
 

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Antonio

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I agree with you Deino, it is a very beatiful art and this "madcap" layout it's my favourite too ;)

AWACS

June 1965
Boeing, Douglas and Lockheed invited to submit proposals.
Contracts awarded to all three.

July 1966
Lockheed eliminated. Boeing and Douglas moved on to the Concept Formulation Phase.

1967
Overland Radar Technology programme. Westinghouse and Hugues selected to compete for the AN/APY-1 radar.
(in January, Boeing's 707 proposal showed 4 engines and dorsal radome. Same position as in E-3 but radome dish is about 50% smaller and it was mounted on a dorsal fin)

December 1968
RFP issued from both contractors.
At this stage, Boeing proposal was based on the 707-320 with tail-mounted radome and four engines.

1969
Boeing proposal is identical to E-3 but it was powered by 8 engines instead of 4.
Engine selected was GE TF-34-GE-2 (40 kN) turbofans in order to match the required unrefuelled endurance specification.

July 1970
Boeing selected as prime contractor. McDonnell Douglas proposal was based in the DC-8.

The 707-320B test airframes retained their standard P&W JT3-D because endurance was not include at this phase. ( Program Brassboard )

In 1972, solicited unrefuelled endurance was reduced from 14 to 11 1/2 hours. In consequence, the E-3 was built with 4 P&W TF-33-PW100/101 engines (US and NATO ) and CFM-56-2A-2/3 (Saudi Arabia, UK and France)

Airframe designation is EC-137D.



Source:

AWACS Origins. Brassboard-Quest for the E-3 radar.
Ed Davis
Air Enthusiast Issue 119. September/October 2005.
 

Iranian F-14A

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Just wondering,but is there any plans to fit the CFM-56-2A-2/3 engines to the USAF and or NATO E-3s and E-8s? I'd assume that since the RC-135s,KC-135Rs and E-6s have them,from a logistics stand point,it'd make sense to install them across the board.
 

Sentinel Chicken

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Iranian F-14A said:
Just wondering,but is there any plans to fit the CFM-56-2A-2/3 engines to the USAF and or NATO E-3s and E-8s? I'd assume that since the RC-135s,KC-135Rs and E-6s have them,from a logistics stand point,it'd make sense to install them across the board.
The USAF would like nothing more than to re-engine the JSTARS fleet- the engines are the weak link in the aircraft's reliability and they've called re-engining an "unfunded priority".
 

Iranian F-14A

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If I remember right,the cancelled E-8B model was a new build airframe,like the E-6 and used the CFM turbofans.Guess the USAF should have went with that model rather then converting the ex airliners into E-8Cs.
 

Sentinel Chicken

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One E-8B was built, 88-0322. It never got fitted out to the best of my knowledge with any operational equipment and was operated for a while by Omega Air as N707UM: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0130123/M/

It eventually ended up going to the Royal Saudi Air Force as I believe an E-3 Sentry.
 

elmayerle

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Iranian F-14A said:
If I remember right,the cancelled E-8B model was a new build airframe,like the E-6 and used the CFM turbofans.Guess the USAF should have went with that model rather then converting the ex airliners into E-8Cs.

As I remember, it was more that the basic 707 airframe was out of production, the E-6s being nearly hte last of those airframes produced, and the added costs of returning it to production were prohibitive. I have read articles about plans to re-engine the E-8s with JT8D-200 series engines.
 

lark

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Douglas made twice a proposal for an AWACS based on their DC-8.

First in November 1962.One of the versions for a "Multi-Mission DC-8F"
One of the missions envisioned was for an AWACS.
The aircraft was identified as Model D-887 and was based the Jet Trader airframe.
Second in 1968.This entry was based on the DC-8-62 airframe.
A full size mockup was erected complete with roto-dome.

Source :Great Airliners. Vol 2 Douglas DC-8 . Terry Waddington.1996
 

flateric

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From the BOEING FRONTIERS March 2007


http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2007/march/i_history.pdf



'These two images show early configurations for a 707-based AWACS aircraft. The illustration
on the left shows Boeing’s initial configuration for the AWACS, which featured a
tail-mounted rotodome mounted on a forward-swept vertical stabilizer. Next image, the
707 aircraft featured eight efficient turbofan engines. Reduction in required endurance time
enabled the standard 707 Pratt & Whitney engines to be retained.'
 

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elmayerle

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flateric said:
From the BOEING FRONTIERS March 2007
'These two images show early configurations for a 707-based AWACS aircraft. The illustration
on the left shows Boeing’s initial configuration for the AWACS, which featured a
tail-mounted rotodome mounted on a forward-swept vertical stabilizer. Next image, the
707 aircraft featured eight efficient turbofan engines. Reduction in required endurance time
enabled the standard 707 Pratt & Whitney engines to be retained.'

If you wanted to carve up or clone bits from enough A-10 or S-3 kits, the eight-engined one could be modelled since it used eight TF34 engines in four double-engine pods.
 

Apophenia

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Old topic, I know but a DC-8 AWACS desktop model popped up on EBay.

Lark identified two DC-8 AWACS proposals. I'm not sure which type the model represents -- the plaque on the base just said AWACS.
 

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Apophenia

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Thanks Thomas.

Just going by the camouflage, I would guess that this the 1968 Jet Trader-based type. The model has the right proportions for a DC-8-55CF, I think.
 

hesham

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overscan said:
You mean this?

;D

And from Flightglobal;

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1969/1969%20-%202810.html
 

Bailey

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Received from a friend, artists impression of the Lockheed C-141 based proposal. (source unknown)

Regards Bailey.
 

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circle-5

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Manufacturer model of early Boeing E-3 configuration. Note antennas on wing tips and stab tips.
 

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circle-5

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Douglas did offer an advanced AWACS variant of its stretched DC-8-63 airframe, as shown in this 1963-dated proposal model. Note fishbone antenna layout.
 

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circle-5

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And here is an unusual AWACS variant of the Douglas DC-8-55, with three large fuselage blisters. Purpose of these is unknown to me. Note extreme rear position of rotodome and extended vertical stab.
 

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Caravellarella

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Fabulous AWACS DC-8s; I can hardly breathe......

It's such a shame the DC-8s didn't get a military order; it would have redressed the imbalance caused by 880-odd KC-135s for Boeing and the DC-8 was a much stronger, more capable, developed and refined airframe. Shame......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

circle-5

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Another view of this unusual Douglas AWACS DC-8 model, to better show the extended vertical stabilizer. An SPF visitor wrote the following comments: Dorsal rotodome location is a compromise between aerodynamics and radar coverage. A forward location gives best coverage, but the aft location is better aerodynamically. On the Admiralty's NA.107 submissions, Avro put the rotodome just behind the cockpit on their 768, whereas Blackburn put the rotodome almost at the tail on their un-named type, rather like on the Vought V-404.
As for the lumps and bumps - could they be to cover the blind spots where there is airframe obscuration?
 

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Pioneer

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Hey great find gents with these desktop models!
Gives a great prospective!!

I was wondering Circle-5 if this unusual AWACS variant of the Douglas DC-8-55, with three large fuselage blisters, that you have posted may have had something to do with (what I thought) had been the original requirement of the USAF's intention of having the design as a combined AWACS/Airborne Command Post? - Hence the additional three large fuselage blisters! Just a guess though!!


Regards
Pioneer
 

aim9xray

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I strongly suspect that the upper fuselage fairing was to house a SATCOM antenna. (Similar installations were made on certain C-135s.) I am less sure about the others...I would speculate that the lower fairings were to house antennas to support a lookdown capability. Other options would be to support a ELINT/COMINT or ESM capability as seen on current E-3s.
 

Mark Nankivil

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Hi All -

Found this on EPay this morning....

[link no longer active]

Looks to be in very good shape too.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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