1935-1940: alternative Luftwaffe?

BB1984

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
38
Reaction score
51
What on the fast bombers? Have the no-nonsense Ju-88 enter service (even though it's performance figures are blown out of proportinons in some non-German sources, like the claim for 560 km/h turn of speed for 1st prototype that was doing 100 km/h less in real world)? Granted, as-is the bombs were limited to 50 kg size in the bomb bay. I've already suggested the sleek-cockpit Do-17 to actually receive the V12 engine. Something else, like a German Mosquito?
There's a lot that could have been done with the Ju-88 program:
  • I've already mentioned that there's no conceptual reason they couldn't have moved the Ju-88C (which was the Ju-88A fuselage with a hard nose) towards a Ju-88G (same wings with more aerodynamic, day/night fighter oriented fuselage) faster than they did to take over for the Me-110 at night in particular but also as a long range heavy fighter in a Beaufighter kind of role

  • The Germans went with the Ju-88 project, but later combined the alternative Ju-85 approach with the BMW-801 and Ju-88A parts to make the Ju-188. There's no compelling reason they couldn't have done this sooner, possibly getting a Ju-188 equivalent into production in late '40, with at least somewhat superior performance and improved defensive armament compared to the Ju-88A. This would have put them on a track towards a Ju-388 style plane a lot sooner.
    • As it was, RMT put off the Ju-188 development since it didn't provide enough benefit to justify work when the Ju-288 would be available shortly . . . but we know how that turned out
 

Justo Miranda

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
5,350
Reaction score
4,720
Website
www.amazon.com
Attacking the USSR was stupid for ideological reasons, Germany had Ploesti's oil and enough resources in 1941 to reach Iraq and Suez, destroying the British communications system with the Far East. Perhaps they would even have been able to use Libya's oil if they had dedicated themselves to conveniently exploring the area.
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
I've already mentioned that there's no conceptual reason they couldn't have moved the Ju-88C (which was the Ju-88A fuselage with a hard nose) towards a Ju-88G (same wings with more aerodynamic, day/night fighter oriented fuselage) faster than they did to take over for the Me-110 at night in particular but also as a long range heavy fighter in a Beaufighter kind of role

Yes, the Ju 88 went from reasonably streamlined prototypes into the draggy A/C territory by the time it entered service. Having the proper bombs (250 kg and upwards) being hang in the breeze made the bad situation even worse.
One wonders whether the bomb cells from the He 111 can be adopted for the Ju 88, so it can carry 6-8 250 kg bombs in fuselage instead under the wings.

The Germans went with the Ju-88 project, but later combined the alternative Ju-85 approach with the BMW-801 and Ju-88A parts to make the Ju-188. There's no compelling reason they couldn't have done this sooner, possibly getting a Ju-188 equivalent into production in late '40, with at least somewhat superior performance and improved defensive armament compared to the Ju-88A.

Ju-188 was defined by it's streamlined cockpit, but also by engines that were not available in 1939-49, like BMW 801D and Jumo 213. Thing with the Ju-88 line was that those were big aircraft, eg. wing area for the A-1 was 25% greater than on the Mosquito, or even more when compared with Bf 110. Jumo 211, or even DB 601 on board will still mean that a turn of speed of 500-520 km/h is probably the limit even after the nip and tuck for the service-worthy machines?
Granted, already having a 500 km/h capable Ju-88 in good numbers is a far better situation than having low numbers of the historical A-1 capable for 460 km/h when the bombs are gone. English-language Wikipedia notes that a lot of Ju-88s were lost in July 1940 due to causes other than enemy action, pointing out the low proficiency of the crews with low time on Ju-88.
Better defensive armament probably entails installation of at least a twinned MG 15 per each post, if not the timely introduction of a 12-13mm HMG?

Another suggestion for a fast bomber - a bombed-up Bf 110, built for this in good numbers? Those were combat tested at the closing days of the BoB, and were used as fighter-bombers afterwards already. Nick the engines from Ju-87s so the Bf 109 production is not affected.
 

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi Tomo,

Another suggestion for a fast bomber - a bombed-up Bf 110, built for this in good numbers? Those were combat tested at the closing days of the BoB, and were used as fighter-bombers afterwards already. Nick the engines from Ju-87s so the Bf 109 production is not affected.

There was the historical Bf 162 "Jaguar", but its bomb load was carried in a similar way as the Ju 88's, and I'm not sure it was any faster either.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,155
Reaction score
688
Hi Tomo,

Another suggestion for a fast bomber - a bombed-up Bf 110, built for this in good numbers? Those were combat tested at the closing days of the BoB, and were used as fighter-bombers afterwards already. Nick the engines from Ju-87s so the Bf 109 production is not affected.

There was the historical Bf 162 "Jaguar", but its bomb load was carried in a similar way as the Ju 88's, and I'm not sure it was any faster either.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
But wasn't the Bf 162 Jaguar bigger, heavier and hence more expensive than the Bf 110 design?

Regards
Pioneer
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,155
Reaction score
688
What about the RLM/Luftwaffe fielding the proposed fighter - interceptor derivative of the Heinkel He 178 as a real and effective reusable point-defence interceptor to defend Germany, freeing up other more flexible tactical fighter-interceptors for offensive operations?

Regards
Pioneer
 

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi,

But wasn't the Bf 162 Jaguar bigger, heavier and hence more expensive than the Bf 110 design?

I believe it was a Me 110 with new wing tips and a new and larger fuselage, so probably you're right, but I suspect it might not have been a big difference.

The more interesting comparison might be that between the Bf 162 and the Ju 88.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
There was the historical Bf 162 "Jaguar", but its bomb load was carried in a similar way as the Ju 88's, and I'm not sure it was any faster either.

Does not seem like it offers anything vs. historical types - the Ju 88 and Do-215 had at least bomb bays, however restricted those were.

Another suggestion - a bombed-up Fw 187? Either as is, when clean it was a tad faster than Hurricane I, or perhaps with Czech HS-12Y engines for extra 2 x 200 HP at 4 km? Once the bombs are gone, can be used as a decent fighter. Yes, having bombs in the breeze will rob the speed.
 

BB1984

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
38
Reaction score
51
I've already mentioned that there's no conceptual reason they couldn't have moved the Ju-88C (which was the Ju-88A fuselage with a hard nose) towards a Ju-88G (same wings with more aerodynamic, day/night fighter oriented fuselage) faster than they did to take over for the Me-110 at night in particular but also as a long range heavy fighter in a Beaufighter kind of role

Yes, the Ju 88 went from reasonably streamlined prototypes into the draggy A/C territory by the time it entered service. Having the proper bombs (250 kg and upwards) being hang in the breeze made the bad situation even worse.
One wonders whether the bomb cells from the He 111 can be adopted for the Ju 88, so it can carry 6-8 250 kg bombs in fuselage instead under the wings.

The Germans went with the Ju-88 project, but later combined the alternative Ju-85 approach with the BMW-801 and Ju-88A parts to make the Ju-188. There's no compelling reason they couldn't have done this sooner, possibly getting a Ju-188 equivalent into production in late '40, with at least somewhat superior performance and improved defensive armament compared to the Ju-88A.

Ju-188 was defined by it's streamlined cockpit, but also by engines that were not available in 1939-49, like BMW 801D and Jumo 213. Thing with the Ju-88 line was that those were big aircraft, eg. wing area for the A-1 was 25% greater than on the Mosquito, or even more when compared with Bf 110. Jumo 211, or even DB 601 on board will still mean that a turn of speed of 500-520 km/h is probably the limit even after the nip and tuck for the service-worthy machines?
Granted, already having a 500 km/h capable Ju-88 in good numbers is a far better situation than having low numbers of the historical A-1 capable for 460 km/h when the bombs are gone. English-language Wikipedia notes that a lot of Ju-88s were lost in July 1940 due to causes other than enemy action, pointing out the low proficiency of the crews with low time on Ju-88.
Better defensive armament probably entails installation of at least a twinned MG 15 per each post, if not the timely introduction of a 12-13mm HMG?

Another suggestion for a fast bomber - a bombed-up Bf 110, built for this in good numbers? Those were combat tested at the closing days of the BoB, and were used as fighter-bombers afterwards already. Nick the engines from Ju-87s so the Bf 109 production is not affected.

Ref Ju-188
  • BMW-801 was in production in late 1940; FW-190 series production was ordered in Nov '40. My point was that you could have a Ju-188 in production by then, though admittedly you wouldn't see squadron service until some time in '41. This is a 'what if' so it doesn't seem like a big stretch to say that more effort earlier could have had the 801 in mass production in 1940.
  • Ju-188G, which was prototyped but didn't go into production, deepened the fuselage, thus allowing larger bombs to be carried internally. Ju-388 addressed the same problem with a wooden pannier, so there were clear development paths to get there. How much sooner that could have happened depends on how much hindsight you want to apply.
  • Ju-188 also rationalized the defensive armament along the lines you are talking about: 13mm (or 20mm) in an upper turret and nose, twin 7.92mm MG in lower ventral position. C and G models also experimented with tail armament, either remote controlled (C model) or manned (G model), though neither installation was successful. So not perfect, and not impressive by US/UK standards, but much better than the profusion of 7.92mm MG on the Ju-88A series.
Ref the Me-110, it did do fighter bomber work, but, since we're in a "what if" thread, I'm in the "use the FW-187 as the day fighter bomber" camp; it just needs better engines and the lack of a second crew member isn't a big deal. Better engines isn't an issue in a "what if" thread: they would have just needed greater DB-601 production. It would be sort of a German Whirlwind.

Bomb carrying FW-187s escorted by He-100D fighters would have been a formidable combination for SEAD and airfield attack at greater ranges than was historically possible.
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
Ref the Me-110, it did do fighter bomber work, but, since we're in a "what if" thread, I'm in the "use the FW-187 as the day fighter bomber" camp; it just needs better engines and the lack of a second crew member isn't a big deal. Better engines isn't an issue in a "what if" thread: they would have just needed greater DB-601 production. It would be sort of a German Whirlwind.

Comparison of engine power @ rated altitude in PS @ km, at least 5 min duration:
- Jumo 210G (as on the historical Fw 187): 670 @ 3.7
- Avia HS-12Y (as instaled on different Czech A/C): 860 @ 4
- DB 601A: 1020 @ 4 km, later (1940 production?) at 4.5
- Jumo 211A (as used on Ju-87B1 and R1): 920 @ 5.2

Also the 30 min power for Jumo 211B (as used on Ju-87B2, R2, similar engines were on Ju-88 and He 111s of 1940 vintage): 900 @ 5.
'Better' German engines do offer more power - a lot more. Avia engine also offers power increase vs. the Jumo 211G, while weighting close to what Jumo 210 G weighted, and much than the Jumo 211 or DB 601. Germans have no pressing need for the Avia engine, so the Fw 187 can have it.

I'm also in the Fw-187 FB camp.

Bomb carrying FW-187s escorted by He-100D fighters would have been a formidable combination for SEAD and airfield attack at greater ranges than was historically possible.

He 100D as-is, or with 'normal' cooling system?
 

Justo Miranda

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
5,350
Reaction score
4,720
Website
www.amazon.com
It would be difficult for them to fight because both types would preferably be used in long range strafing missions
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
Whirlwind was about as short-ranged as Hurricane, Spitfire or Bf 109E. Whirly packed a lot of firepower, though, and looked darned good.
 

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi Tomo,

Comparison of engine power @ rated altitude in PS @ km, at least 5 min duration:
- Jumo 210G (as on the historical Fw 187): 670 @ 3.7

Do you happen to have a Jumo 210G engine curve? I only found one for the B through E models, and these top out at 635 PS @ 2.7 km, using 2700 rpm/1.3 ata in high supercharger gear.

Interestingly, the D/E models have the same high supercharger gear ratio as the B/C models, and just add the low gear for take-off power below 1.5 km.

(I'm relying on Müller's "Junkers Flugtriebwerke" here.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
Do you happen to have a Jumo 210G engine curve? I only found one for the B through E models, and these top out at 635 PS @ 2.7 km, using 2700 rpm/1.3 ata in high supercharger gear.

Nope :) The 210G power is supposed to be 670 PS at 3.8 km actually, at least whan going with what is written at the 'Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke' book.

(I'm relying on Müller's "Junkers Flugtriebwerke" here.)

Aah, the most elusive book :)
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,155
Reaction score
688
There was the historical Bf 162 "Jaguar", but its bomb load was carried in a similar way as the Ju 88's, and I'm not sure it was any faster either.

Another suggestion - a bombed-up Fw 187?
I'm guessing this would bring this derivative of a "bombed-up Fw 187" inline with the British Westland Whirlwind?

Regards
Pioneer
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,155
Reaction score
688
Hi,

But wasn't the Bf 162 Jaguar bigger, heavier and hence more expensive than the Bf 110 design?

The more interesting comparison might be that between the Bf 162 and the Ju 88.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
I agree with this analogy more than the comparison to the Bf 110 my dear Henning (HoHun)

Regards
Pioneer
 

BB1984

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
38
Reaction score
51
Bomb carrying FW-187s escorted by He-100D fighters would have been a formidable combination for SEAD and airfield attack at greater ranges than was historically possible.

He 100D as-is, or with 'normal' cooling system?
He 100 D-1, the production model, reverted to conventional cooling.

But the big change was the eventual abandonment of the surface cooling system, which proved to be too complex and failure-prone. Instead an even larger version of the retractable radiator was installed, and this appeared to completely cure the problems. The radiator was inserted in a "plug" below the cockpit, and as a result the wings were widened slightly.
 

Nik

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
553
Reaction score
203
At the height of Battle of Britain, did Herr_H really make a speech that, for every bomb that fell on Berlin, many would fall upon London ? At which point the RAF mounted a night-raid to scatter a few noisome incendiaries on Western Berlin suburb ? Forcing diversion of Luftwaffe attacks from RAF fighter airfields to 'civilian' targets ??

An uncle (in-law), ex merchant navy, used to do fire-watch on roof of Liverpool Cathedral, running up and down the vast Southern slope with bucket & spade, digging incendiaries out of the sheathing before they could melt through...

He said the real heroes were the 'Spotters' atop the cathedral's tower. From high above the smoke and flames of the city, they gave the emergency control centre a running up-date while street-level turned to chaos. But, access to tower was a nigh-endless wooden stair. Had fire got into the main roof, the tower would have acted as a chimney, become a 'blow-torch'. The 'Spotters' fully expected to keep reporting until either the fire reached them or the phone lines began to fail, then quote Captain Oates', "I am just going outside and may be some time."

Apparently bomber crews were promised 'Iron Cross' etc etc if the Mersey Road or Rail tunnels were breached. So, many big bombs were duly dropped in river rather than on the docks & warehouses...

FWIW, when 'broadband' came through a few years ago, and the cable guys trenched every suburb 'sidewalk', their JCB back-hoe's 'Clang' revealed a large 'Unexploded' that had found a diminutive clay-pit on the otherwise near-bare sandstone ridge. Hasty evacuations, defusing, removal of residuals to Crosby beach for distant destruction. Locals of a certain age sighed with relief. The whatsit was the missing end from a 'pattern' aligned across the district. And, yes, it was 'this' end rather than 'that', and it had been dropped, not 'hung up'...
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
I'm guessing this would bring this derivative of a "bombed-up Fw 187" inline with the British Westland Whirlwind?

Yes.

Bomb carrying FW-187s escorted by He-100D fighters would have been a formidable combination for SEAD and airfield attack at greater ranges than was historically possible.

He 100D as-is, or with 'normal' cooling system?
He 100 D-1, the production model, reverted to conventional cooling.

But the big change was the eventual abandonment of the surface cooling system, which proved to be too complex and failure-prone. Instead an even larger version of the retractable radiator was installed, and this appeared to completely cure the problems. The radiator was inserted in a "plug" below the cockpit, and as a result the wings were widened slightly.

Ah, the ever elusive He 100 D-1.
There is no mention of it in German-language Wikipedia. The English-language Wikipedia notes that D-1 was renamed as He 113, however the same source under entry He 113 notes that those were the 'old' D models, ie. the ones with surface cooling. There is also no citation quoted for the D-1 that we can see for confirmation.
There seems to be no photo of the 'D-1', too.
The old D was already with the bigger wing, the record machines were with small wing.
 

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi Tomo,

(I'm relying on Müller's "Junkers Flugtriebwerke" here.)

Aah, the most elusive book :)

Oh, is it? I didn't find it all that revealing, it doesn't seem to add much over von Gersdorff et al., and it is in no way comparable to Calum Douglas' book. One or two engines graphs I hadn't seen before, though.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
Oh, is it? I didn't find it all that revealing, it doesn't seem to add much over von Gersdorff et al., and it is in no way comparable to Calum Douglas' book. One or two engines graphs I hadn't seen before, though.

Doh. Thank you, I've intended to buy the bullet and buy it,overpriced as it is now. Calum's book is indeed a high quality product, and highly recomended buy.
BTW - is there anything worthy written there about the 2-stage compressors from Jumo, like the 213E, F and J were using?
 

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi Tomo,

BTW - is there anything worthy written there about the 2-stage compressors from Jumo, like the 213E, F and J were using?

Unfortunately, nothing ... I just checked.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

BB1984

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
38
Reaction score
51
But the big change was the eventual abandonment of the surface cooling system, which proved to be too complex and failure-prone. Instead an even larger version of the retractable radiator was installed, and this appeared to completely cure the problems. The radiator was inserted in a "plug" below the cockpit, and as a result the wings were widened slightly.

Ah, the ever elusive He 100 D-1.
There is no mention of it in German-language Wikipedia. The English-language Wikipedia notes that D-1 was renamed as He 113, however the same source under entry He 113 notes that those were the 'old' D models, ie. the ones with surface cooling. There is also no citation quoted for the D-1 that we can see for confirmation.
There seems to be no photo of the 'D-1', too.
The old D was already with the bigger wing, the record machines were with small wing.

Accounts say the D-0 models were sold to, and shipped to Japan and that the remainder were finished as D-1s. Same sources say that the propaganda photos of the mythical He-113 (ironically the designation the fighter should have had in the first place) were D-1s. It's not like "sources" are never wrong, but you can clearly see a ventral radiator extended in some of those propaganda photos:
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
Accounts say the D-0 models were sold to, and shipped to Japan and that the remainder were finished as D-1s. Same sources say that the propaganda photos of the mythical He-113 (ironically the designation the fighter should have had in the first place) were D-1s. It's not like "sources" are never wrong, but you can clearly see a ventral radiator extended in some of those propaganda photos:

Auxiliary retractable radiator was on all He 100 versions, helping to cool the engine when A/C was at low speed, like during take-off etc.
 

Nik

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
553
Reaction score
203
Any idea why it was retractable, rather than 'faired & shuttered' ??
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
A big cancellation is still under way - no Hs 126, no Hs 129, have Henschel make Ju-87s with a radial engine instead.
 

pathology_doc

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
1,069
Reaction score
455
Anyone here read Calum Douglas' "The Secret Horsepower Race"? If he's to be believed, Germany was screwed six ways from Sunday no matter what it built, because its engine and fuel development programmes were badly mismanaged, and as the war ran on and various satellite holdings fell to the Allies, it found itself critically short of the materials needed to make reliable high-performance engines. On the contrary, while the British and Americans were technologically behind the eight-ball, they had reliable engines, with no shortage of materials for strong alloys, which could be developed to the limit and high-octane fuels to take full advantage of them.
 

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi,

Accounts say the D-0 models were sold to, and shipped to Japan and that the remainder were finished as D-1s. Same sources say that the propaganda photos of the mythical He-113 (ironically the designation the fighter should have had in the first place) were D-1s. It's not like "sources" are never wrong, but you can clearly see a ventral radiator extended in some of those propaganda photos:

Here some scans from "Heinkel - Chronik und Typenblätter der Firma Heinkel-Flugzeugbau", reprinted by Aviatic Verlag.

It's worth noting that the radiator of the He 100 D-1 is drawn with a solid line, while that one on the He 100 V4 drawing in the same book is drawn with a dotted line. However, as otherwise the radiator looks identical, I'm not sure that means the radiator was in fact fixed on the D-1as there are some other differences in the line style for the retractable gear and gear well covers as well. Pessimistically, it might even be that this drawing started the story of the non-retractable radiator - not sure if it can be confirmed from other sources.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

Attachments

  • Heinkel_Aviatic_p125s.jpg
    Heinkel_Aviatic_p125s.jpg
    362.3 KB · Views: 5
  • Heinkel_Aviatic_p126s.jpg
    Heinkel_Aviatic_p126s.jpg
    174.7 KB · Views: 6
  • Heinkel_Aviatic_p127s.jpg
    Heinkel_Aviatic_p127s.jpg
    154.9 KB · Views: 6

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
Here some scans from "Heinkel - Chronik und Typenblätter der Firma Heinkel-Flugzeugbau", reprinted by Aviatic Verlag.

It's worth noting that the radiator of the He 100 D-1 is drawn with a solid line, while that one on the He 100 V4 drawing in the same book is drawn with a dotted line. However, as otherwise the radiator looks identical, I'm not sure that means the radiator was in fact fixed on the D-1as there are some other differences in the line style for the retractable gear and gear well covers as well. Pessimistically, it might even be that this drawing started the story of the non-retractable radiator - not sure if it can be confirmed from other sources.

Henning - please note the discrepacies between the text, table, drawing and history. Ie. the engine listed is the DB 601M - the version of DB 601A specifically modified so it can use the steam cooling. The MG FF as a motor-cannon never reliably worked in the DB 601A. There is no oil cooler to see at drawing. Turn of speed is equal, if not better than of the He 100D a.k.a. He 110D-0, despite the supposed fixed radiator. The radiator housing layout - short & with intake of big frontal area - is against what people were making - ie. long and with intake of small frontal area.
 

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi Tomo,

Henning - please note the discrepacies between the text, table, drawing and history. Ie. the engine listed is the DB 601M - the version of DB 601A specifically modified so it can use the steam cooling. The MG FF as a motor-cannon never reliably worked in the DB 601A. There is no oil cooler to see at drawing. Turn of speed is equal, if not better than of the He 100D a.k.a. He 110D-0, despite the supposed fixed radiator. The radiator housing layout - short & with intake of big frontal area - is against what people were making - ie. long and with intake of small frontal area.

Hm, could you elaborate on the discrepancies?

- The DB 601M seems to be the right engine type for the D-1.
- The motor cannon, for which no type is mentioned, was a secondary option, as two wing MG 151 were considered the primary option.
- Oil cooling according to the previous pages on the record aircraft was done by surface cooling as well, and for the V7, a new oil heat exchanger design is mentioned, so I don't think there should be a visible oil cooler on the D-1.
- As I pointed out above, I doubt that the radiator was fixed, so the speed should not expected to be lower than on previous aircraft. You're right that the shape was entirely wrong for a fixed radiator, but as the text even mentions the radiator to be retractable and meant only for emergency use or "for special performance", which probably refers to take-off and high-power climb, I wouldn't consider that a discrepancy.

The data sheet for the He 100 B (V4) in the book is a reproduction of the attached one, less the data on specific consumption and the hint that the data is test data up to 5 km, and calculated based on Daimler-Benz engine data for altitudes above that.

With regard to a fixed radiator, documents from the now unfortunately vanished cockpitinstrumente.de archive mention that Heinkel planned to build 6 He 100 aircraft with conventional wing radiators and no surface cooling at all. In Protokoll Nr. 5383 from 18 November 1938, it's stated that this is a measure to help development of wing radiators for the He 177, for which an offer is to be made to the RLM. In Mitteilung Nr. 319/38 regarding a meeting from 17 November 1938, the stated purpose is make some of these aircraft available to front line units as operational fighters, and they are to be completed carefully in order to make the best impression at the front.

Maybe that's where the fixed radiator story comes from? I've had these documents on my hard disk for years, but I never noticed this particular bit.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

Attachments

  • He100V4-Doc.jpg
    He100V4-Doc.jpg
    502.1 KB · Views: 6

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
- The DB 601M seems to be the right engine type for the D-1.
DB 601M was the type specifically modified for use with steam/evaporative cooling. If indeed the 'classic' radiator was to be used, then the 601A should be the engine? Such engine is noted in the original data sheet for the V4 version that you've posted, but not fore the 'D-1'.

The motor cannon, for which no type is mentioned, was a secondary option, as two wing MG 151 were considered the primary option.

MG 151s in the wing roots would've been visible on the photos, with barrels protruding a lot. MG 151 was not available before 1941 IIRC.

- As I pointed out above, I doubt that the radiator was fixed, so the speed should not expected to be lower than on previous aircraft. You're right that the shape was entirely wrong for a fixed radiator, but as the text even mentions the radiator to be retractable and meant only for emergency use or "for special performance", which probably refers to take-off and high-power climb, I wouldn't consider that a discrepancy.

Something still needs to cool the engine coolant. A retracted radiator will not cut it, if that's the only way to cool the coolant (ie. absence of the usual cooling system as used on He 100s) - not even the people at Heinkel were that good so they can do it.
 

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi Tomo,

DB 601M was the type specifically modified for use with steam/evaporative cooling. If indeed the 'classic' radiator was to be used, then the 601A should be the engine? Such engine is noted in the original data sheet for the V4 version that you've posted, but not fore the 'D-1'.

I'm not sure what the actual physical differences of the DB 601 A and the M were. The DB 601 A clearly worked with the evaporative cooling since it was flown in the early He 100 prototypes. The retractable radiator is in fact called "condenser" in the Heinkel documentation from cockpitinstrumente.de, so it's clear it was used with steam cooling.

MG 151s in the wing roots would've been visible on the photos, with barrels protruding a lot. MG 151 was not available before 1941 IIRC.

The datasheet refers to the D-1 status as planned. It might well be that the aircraft shown in the propaganda pictures weren't even armed. (By the way, just recently Flugzeug Classic magazine published a number of previously unknown photographs from the propaganda series, even showing bombs laid "ready for arming" below the He 100 - with no bomb rack visible on the aircraft! :-D

Something still needs to cool the engine coolant. A retracted radiator will not cut it, if that's the only way to cool the coolant (ie. absence of the usual cooling system as used on He 100s) - not even the people at Heinkel were that good so they can do it.

The radiator wasn't the only way to cool the coolant, as it was used in addition to surface cooling. There might be a way to tell that surface cooling was in use with the aircraft in the propaganda photographs by checking whether they have as many rivets as the prototypes :-D Seriously, the Heinkel documents mention that the fixed wing radiator aircraft (which I assume remained unbuilt) could have fewer rivets as thermal warping was not a factor when surface cooling was dropped.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
The datasheet refers to the D-1 status as planned. It might well be that the aircraft shown in the propaganda pictures weren't even armed. (By the way, just recently Flugzeug Classic magazine published a number of previously unknown photographs from the propaganda series, even showing bombs laid "ready for arming" below the He 100 - with no bomb rack visible on the aircraft! :-D
Thank you for that.
In what number of the Flugzeug Classic is that posted?
 

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi Tomo,

The datasheet refers to the D-1 status as planned. It might well be that the aircraft shown in the propaganda pictures weren't even armed. (By the way, just recently Flugzeug Classic magazine published a number of previously unknown photographs from the propaganda series, even showing bombs laid "ready for arming" below the He 100 - with no bomb rack visible on the aircraft! :-D
Thank you for that.
In what number of the Flugzeug Classic is that posted?

My apologies, the photographs were actually showing Me 209s in a similar setting as the well-known He 100 photographs! I confused the two types, sorry for that!

The pictures are in issue 11/2021 of Flugzeug Classic, showing my memory goes downhill Stuka-style!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

riggerrob

I really should change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
1,705
Reaction score
1,161
Hi,

Accounts say the D-0 models were sold to, and shipped to Japan and that the remainder were finished as D-1s. Same sources say that the propaganda photos of the mythical He-113 (ironically the designation the fighter should have had in the first place) were D-1s. It's not like "sources" are never wrong, but you can clearly see a ventral radiator extended in some of those propaganda photos:

Here some scans from "Heinkel - Chronik und Typenblätter der Firma Heinkel-Flugzeugbau", reprinted by Aviatic Verlag.

It's worth noting that the radiator of the He 100 D-1 is drawn with a solid line, while that one on the He 100 V4 drawing in the same book is drawn with a dotted line. However, as otherwise the radiator looks identical, I'm not sure that means the radiator was in fact fixed on the D-1as there are some other differences in the line style for the retractable gear and gear well covers as well. Pessimistically, it might even be that this drawing started the story of the non-retractable radiator - not sure if it can be confirmed from other sources.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
How did He 100's cost of production compare with He. 112, Messerschmitt Bf. 109, Focke-Wulf 190, etc.?

Let's try to ignore similar bolt-in components like engines, instruments, guns, radios, etc.
I am primarily curious about the cost of the airframe.
 
Last edited:

HoHun

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Hi Rob,

How did He 100's cost of production compare with He. 112, Messerschmitt Bf. 109, Focke-Wulf 190, etc.?

Let's try to ignore similar bolt-in components like engines, instruments, guns, radios, etc.
I am primarily curious about the cost of the airframe.

I have no actual figures, but from Heinkel's autobiography "Stürmisches Leben", it's obvious that Heinkel had worked very hard on designing an easy-to-produce aircraft, clearly because the Me 109 didn't win on virtue of performance and handling alone, but also because it could be produced very efficiently. (Flugzeug Classic once featured a Heinkel quote to the effect of the Me 109 being "ridiculously" efficient, production-wise. That's from memory, and I can't easily confirm it as it must have been 10 years ago or more that I read it.)

In "Stürmisches Leben", Heinkel quotes figures for the total parts count and also for the number of unique parts for the He 112 and the He 100 respectively, and there was a dramatic reduction achieved for the He 100. I believe the Ernst Heinkel AG by that time also had invented explosives rivets in order to be able to build complex parts easily when there was not enough space for conventional riveting techniques, which I'd speculate might have helped with the He 100 as well.

So, no guarantee that the He 100 was on the same level as the Me 109 or the Fw 190 production-wise, but at least I'm confident that Heinkel had made an inspired effort to make the He 100 as suitable for cheap mass production as possible.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

tomo pauk

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
177
Reaction score
114
Anyone here read Calum Douglas' "The Secret Horsepower Race"? If he's to be believed, Germany was screwed six ways from Sunday no matter what it built, because its engine and fuel development programmes were badly mismanaged, and as the war ran on and various satellite holdings fell to the Allies, it found itself critically short of the materials needed to make reliable high-performance engines. On the contrary, while the British and Americans were technologically behind the eight-ball, they had reliable engines, with no shortage of materials for strong alloys, which could be developed to the limit and high-octane fuels to take full advantage of them.

I've read the book. A real must-have for anyone interested in ww2 aviation, now already at 3rd edition in print.

Nazi Germany aero engine program was indeed a long way from what we might consider a 'team game'. Every major engine company was fighting for the big slice of funding, while diluting the resources in making 5-10 engine projects. Eg. BMW went from V12s to the Hornet production in 1920s/30s, to development of Hornet into BMW 132, then they developed two V12s (116 and 117), then they bought Bramo that was trying to make 2-row radial desing. Then, the BMW/Bramo was told by RLM to forget the V12 business, and focus on radials. They had, improving the 132 and 323, developing the 139 (14 cyl radial 1st for Fw 190; cancelled due to design fault), the 800 (9-cyl radial), 801 that we know well (roughly the 139 with proper layout of bearings, heavier and longer), the 802 (18 cyl), 803, and then a jet engine. A vast array of engines indeed, just for one company.

So what to do in general, and for BMW in particular? I'd try to stuff a proper supercharger on the BMW 132, hopefully the power might be in-between the Mercury and Peegasus at required altitudes. Have BMW make a big V12 engine (the 117 at least, although I'd favor them making a ~45L type) instead of 2-row radial, so they have something competitive to offer already by 1938?
 

_Del_

I really should change my personal text... Or not.
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
726
Reaction score
568
Cancel Messerschmitt Bf. 110, 210 and 310 because they did not really have a role. By late war, they were pressed into service as night-fighters, but that was purely in desperation.
Not sure that is a fair assessment. They had very long legs for one. They did fairly well in free ranging fighter sweeps using the right tactics. They were abysmal in the "close escort" which both sides dabbled with and was largely ineffective regardless of aircraft quality, but the 110 was particularly ill-suited for it. The biggest complaint seems to be that it cannot get into a turning fight with Spitfires, but there weren't a lot of aircraft that could.

Long legs was useful over the Med and in the Africa campaign, both for sweeps and as Jabos. Similar work in the east where they frequently tore up trains, airfields, vehicles, etc.
It did fine work as an interceptor for daylight bombing raids until long-range escort became available. It had enough power and reserves to lug the 21cm rockets to break up bomber boxes.

The 210 was a mess. I'm not sure that could have been foreseen given Willy's reputation. 310 wasn't much better. 410 was useful, but how do you get there without working through the disaster that was the 210 program? And maybe the biggest problem with the 210 was that it took the 110 essentially out of production and disrupted the lines, while what was finally produced proved ineffective. They would have been better off just leaving the 110 in production for a time until the 410 was finally developed -- but again, the chicken-egg problem.

. Ju. 52-3 trimotor was obsolete by the start of WW2. The Ju. 252 and 352 were ...
The big issue here is the 252 uses the engines that are in much higher demand for combat aircraft. The 352 is fine, but comes too late to make much of a difference, and is not as capable as the 252.

Engines are the big bottleneck in Germany.
 

Similar threads

Top