More Undersea Cable Attacks and More Ships Seized

Never underestimate human stupidity. So far, it appears that the cable breaks are primarily, or solely, caused by inadvertent anchor dragging. Until a specialist undersea cable cutter is recovered, we should avoid paranoia. Besides, how would China fill all of those Shein and Temu orders if communications were cut?
 
Forest Green said:
Inadvertent LOL. It's like driving a car with the handbrake on.
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Anchor dragging isn't at all like driving with the handbrake on. A better analogy would be that anchoring a ship is like parking on a hilly dirt track.

Your car will probably be where you left it, but if your tyres are worn, the hill is steep, and there's a rainstorm coming... well, that's what insurance is for.
 
Forest Green said:
Inadvertent LOL. It's like driving a car with the handbrake on.
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Really isn't according to people in the know. Ships are mostly driven on autopilot (not called an autopilot but I forget the exact term) from waypoint to waypoint. That 'autopilot' automatically compensates for seas, wind, current to get itself to the next waypoint. Dragging an anchor just becomes another element that the pilot compensates for, and because there's typically no indicator on the bridge that an anchor is down (no really), they can just motor along, dragging an anchor, and only being slowed down by a couple of knots.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWkKnyEu_Bc
 
Yellow Palace said:
Anchor dragging isn't at all like driving with the handbrake on. A better analogy would be that anchoring a ship is like parking on a hilly dirt track.

Your car will probably be where you left it, but if your tyres are worn, the hill is steep, and there's a rainstorm coming... well, that's what insurance is for.
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A competent driver would leave the car in gear on a hill, equally cars with worn tyres don't pass MOTs. Additionally, if that car does slide down the hill into a bus stop queue, guess who's going to prison.

jeffb said:
Really isn't according to people in the know. Ships are mostly driven on autopilot (not called an autopilot but I forget the exact term) from waypoint to waypoint. That 'autopilot' automatically compensates for seas, wind, current to get itself to the next waypoint. Dragging an anchor just becomes another element that the pilot compensates for, and because there's typically no indicator on the bridge that an anchor is down (no really), they can just motor along, dragging an anchor, and only being slowed down by a couple of knots.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWkKnyEu_Bc
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The guy who dropped the anchor can't remember or something? How convenient. A prison sentence on them and a fine on the operators will help their memories.
 
Forest Green said:
A competent driver would leave the car in gear on a hill, equally cars with worn tyres don't pass MOTs. Additionally, if that car does slide down the hill into a bus stop queue, guess who's going to prison.
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It's an analogy.

Anchors don't hold on the seabed 100% of the time. Usually it's fine. But sometimes the environmental loads are higher than the cable alone can resist, and the anchor drags. It's a thing that happens, and isn't really avoidable except by not anchoring.

Yes, if the anchor is undersized or inappropriate for the conditions (not all anchors work equally well on all seabeds) there's a problem. Not knowing the anchor is down is also a problem. But the anchor dragging isn't, in itself, a problem - provided the crew responds appropriately before anything gets broken.
 
Yellow Palace said:
It's an analogy.

Anchors don't hold on the seabed 100% of the time. Usually it's fine. But sometimes the environmental loads are higher than the cable alone can resist, and the anchor drags. It's a thing that happens, and isn't really avoidable except by not anchoring.

Yes, if the anchor is undersized or inappropriate for the conditions (not all anchors work equally well on all seabeds) there's a problem. Not knowing the anchor is down is also a problem. But the anchor dragging isn't, in itself, a problem - provided the crew responds appropriately before anything gets broken.
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You'd think there'd be a warning that the anchor is deployed on newer ships, possibly even an interlock. But someone on the crew should realise if they're even slightly competent. If not, they shouldn't be at sea.
 
Forest Green said:
You'd think there'd be a warning that the anchor is deployed on newer ships, possibly even an interlock. But someone on the crew should realise if they're even slightly competent. If not, they shouldn't be at sea.
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First off, how do you determine if the anchor is down? You'll pay out different amounts of cable in different depths of water, so you can't use that. And you lower the anchor to the waterline while still making way, so you can't just check if the anchor is in it's housing. So you're left with

Secondly, you need to start the engine before you bring the anchor in. Otherwise you'll drift. And if the anchor is dragging due to weather or poor holding – which is a thing that happens – you'll need to start the engines promptly to regain control.

Which leaves you with a system that fundamentally relies on recording that the ship is at anchor, and acting accordingly. And that opens the door to human error. There should be processes to mitigate that. Not having those processes is one of the things that will get a ship banned from port or detained. But with an awful lot of ships out there, and intense commercial pressure to cut costs to the absolute minimum, human error will still happen from time to time.
 
Yellow Palace said:
First off, how do you determine if the anchor is down? You'll pay out different amounts of cable in different depths of water, so you can't use that. And you lower the anchor to the waterline while still making way, so you can't just check if the anchor is in it's housing. So you're left with
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How do you judge if your car is going to miss a wall when reversing. Safety margins apply.
Yellow Palace said:
Secondly, you need to start the engine before you bring the anchor in. Otherwise you'll drift. And if the anchor is dragging due to weather or poor holding – which is a thing that happens – you'll need to start the engines promptly to regain control.

Which leaves you with a system that fundamentally relies on recording that the ship is at anchor, and acting accordingly. And that opens the door to human error. There should be processes to mitigate that. Not having those processes is one of the things that will get a ship banned from port or detained. But with an awful lot of ships out there, and intense commercial pressure to cut costs to the absolute minimum, human error will still happen from time to time.
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Don't have the anchor down near cables.
 
Yellow Palace said:
First off, how do you determine if the anchor is down? You'll pay out different amounts of cable in different depths of water, so you can't use that. And you lower the anchor to the waterline while still making way, so you can't just check if the anchor is in it's housing. So you're left with
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First off, you tantalizingly end your top paragraph with "So you're left with" - pray tell exactly WHAT???

Second, both anchor contact with the sea floor and presence or absence of the anchor in/from its housing can be reliably determined with dedicated in situ sensors (let's call it "Smart Anchor" :D). It's not the 19th century anymore, you know...
 
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Forest Green said:
Don't have the anchor down near cables.
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Or don't put cables near roadsteads. Unfortunately they have been. Look up a chart for a busy port: you're likely to find a 'no anchoring' area. Very often that's because of cables.

And no competent mariner is going to want to anchor in such an area either. Quite apart from the potential reputational damage, there's a significant risk of getting your anchor tangled in cables, moorings etc., and your own ship winding up stuck as a result.

Which, of course, is why dragging anchor is something that's undesirable, and which a ship at anchor is keeping watch for. But, because the marine environment is so variable, sometimes it happens anyway. And sometimes the crew isn't able to take preventative action in time to avoid a negative outcome. Which might be cut cables. It might also be fouled moorings, collision, or grounding.
martinbayer said:
First off, you tantalizingly end your top paragraph with "So you're left with" - pray tell exactly WHAT???
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I belive the second paragraph was inserted later - you're left with procedural controls as described in the final paragraph.
martinbayer said:
Second, both anchor contact with the sea floor and presence or absence of the anchor in/from its housing can be reliably determined with dedicated in situ sensors
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At least until the sensor, or the cable connecting it to the ship, is destroyed by the marine environment. Which would most likely occur the first time the anchor was deployed and recovered.
publiusr said:
More recent attempts
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Not necessarily. The article identifies three possibilities. This one is interesting, because it's intermediate between 'cables attacked' and 'things get broken at sea':

"Several were cut, possibly by a ship attacked by the Houthis dragging its anchor, but the rebels denied being responsible."

What this is describing is that if a ship is damaged reasonably close to shore, one of the early responses is going to be to stop and anchor. And under those circumstances, the risk of damage to seabed infrastructure will be higher.

That's not the desired outcome of the attack (it may not be undesired, but that's another matter), but the damage is still a consequence of it.
 
TomcatViP said:
The idea that an anchor would drag for dozen of nautical miles without a crew noticing is ridiculous. Please stop. You are making this forum a fool for newcomers.
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Dozens of miles? No, of course the crew would notice that. Although an anchor can drag for several miles while the crew is busy trying to do something about it, depending on conditions.

Some of the posts in this thread, though, argue that any dragging whatsoever is a sign of criminal incompetence. Which is an equally ludicrous position. The only way to guarantee anchors won't drag is to never anchor anything.
 
jeffb said:
Really isn't according to people in the know. Ships are mostly driven on autopilot (not called an autopilot but I forget the exact term) from waypoint to waypoint. That 'autopilot' automatically compensates for seas, wind, current to get itself to the next waypoint. Dragging an anchor just becomes another element that the pilot compensates for, and because there's typically no indicator on the bridge that an anchor is down (no really), they can just motor along, dragging an anchor, and only being slowed down by a couple of knots.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWkKnyEu_Bc
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Guys, again, listen to someone who knows, that's why I linked to Sal Mercogliano's vid in the first place. Systems on ships don't necessarily work how you think they do, or how you think they should.
 

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