Franco-Dutch AAW Frigate project (2026)

It would be a different approach vs other navies, cheaper and better aligned with future USVs that could add to the distributed sensor/shooter network.
You do make it sound easy, however it's everything but easy. FDI adding weight and length to it would change its hydro dynamics. It would likely need some kind of turbine set up added. New radars and other powerful electronics will need more power generation which adds weight and growth in support systems. All of a sudden there's no more room in the hull and you have to do a clean sheet design.
 
No reason why an Aquila missile battery couldn’t be on trucks - easy to move around as needed. The sensor network would be fixed of course, but to protect all of Europe you only need 2-3 long range radars. No need to worry about ships going into refits or being needed elsewhere for other missions.
Sure, but for immediate response to a new threat vector, it's hard to beat ships.

Say, folks in Algeria getting a wild hair and deciding to start things with Europe.
 
Personally I like the idea of larger numbers of stretched FDI AAW rather than 2 extremely expensive cruiser-sized DDGs.

A CODAD light frigate will not have the SWAP-C margins for a modern AAW combatant. There is a reason why pretty much every country which isn't either constrained by overly low tax rates or government by malignant narcissist is going for 10,000 ton plus AAW combatants.

It would be a different approach vs other navies, cheaper and better aligned with future USVs that could add to the distributed sensor/shooter network.

I would disagree, 10,000 ton plus destroyers operating in concert with USVs will have the best of both worlds, with the necessary array sizes to deal with Ballistic Missiles HGVs and LO targets, and the necessary command spaces to manage the USVs, whilst said USVs act as offboard magazines and provide distributed low altitude radar coverage.
 
A CODAD light frigate will not have the SWAP-C margins for a modern AAW combatant. There is a reason why pretty much every country which isn't either constrained by overly low tax rates or government by malignant narcissist is going for 10,000 ton plus AAW combatants.
I hear you but at the end of the day when you take a 4,500t FDI frigate and compare to say a 7,800t T26/River class, 8,000t FFG-62, or 10,500t F126, I see 99% overlap in terms of combat capability... same VDS sonar, similar high-end fixed panel radar, similar mix of VLS, RAM, medium gun systems etc.

Now obviously under the hood there must be many things being traded off to get all that in a smaller hull, including density, growth margins, radar height, accommodation spaces, flight deck size, fuel bunkerage etc. But I wouldn't discount the result if it's equally combat effective in almost all scenarios and if the smaller hull size is part of a strategy to reduce platform cost and maximize hull numbers and thus coverage.

Perhaps ASW frigates are fundamentally different from AAW ships which require more displacement to house sensors and VLS... there's certainly some truth to that.

That said there are smaller AAW ships such as the Dutch LCF or Danish Ivar Huidfeldts which with the latest AESA radars (Smart L MM, fixed panel S- or X-band etc) would compare quite well even to an upgraded T45 or Horizon DDG. The stretched FDI with its 9m hull plug and ~5,500t displacement would be getting pretty close to the size range of an LCF or Ivar Huidfeldt...
 
It would be a different approach vs other navies, cheaper and better aligned with future USVs that could add to the distributed sensor/shooter network.
I still don't think that a USV with an Area-AAW radar will be all that small or cheap.
 
I hear you but at the end of the day when you take a 4,500t FDI frigate and compare to say a 7,800t T26/River class, 8,000t FFG-62, or 10,500t F126, I see 99% overlap in terms of combat capability... same VDS sonar, similar high-end fixed panel radar, similar mix of VLS, RAM, medium gun systems etc.

Now obviously under the hood there must be many things being traded off to get all that in a smaller hull, including density, growth margins, radar height, accommodation spaces, flight deck size, fuel bunkerage etc. But I wouldn't discount the result if it's equally combat effective in almost all scenarios and if the smaller hull size is part of a strategy to reduce platform cost and maximize hull numbers and thus coverage.

Perhaps ASW frigates are fundamentally different from AAW ships which require more displacement to house sensors and VLS... there's certainly some truth to that.

That said there are smaller AAW ships such as the Dutch LCF or Danish Ivar Huidfeldts which with the latest AESA radars (Smart L MM, fixed panel S- or X-band etc) would compare quite well even to an upgraded T45 or Horizon DDG. The stretched FDI with its 9m hull plug and ~5,500t displacement would be getting pretty close to the size range of an LCF or Ivar Huidfeldt...
You're talking about the LCF, and completely disregarding the fact that the Dutch think that by now it's really underarmed and no longer is survivable enough. Hell, the ASW frigates they're looking at are getting close to that size!

The LCF was very much a child of the peace divident, not even getting the full 48 vls it should have had. Because that was very much a cost issue.

The Dutch got a good ship out of it, but by the standards of today it's simply insufficient. Everyone who has the money (looking at you GB) is coming to the same conclusion and building substantially bigger and better armed ships.
 
Everyone who has the money (looking at you GB) is coming to the same conclusion and building substantially bigger and better armed ships.
We'll see if these navies can afford to fill all those VLS cells.

Keep in mind that a full 96-cell VLS load out costs $600-700M these days (~$7.5M for an ESSM quad-pack, $6M for SM-6, $4.25M for SM-2 Block IIICU, with 20-40% minimum reserves for test launches and wartime).
 
That said there are smaller AAW ships such as the Dutch LCF or Danish Ivar Huitfeldt which with the latest AESA radars (Smart L MM, fixed panel S- or X-band etc) would compare quite well even to an upgraded T45 or Horizon DDG. The stretched FDI with its 9m hull plug and ~5,500t displacement would be getting pretty close to the size range of an LCF or Ivar Huidfeldt...
You didn't reply to my comment above about the flow on effects of making changes, especially in small hulls like the FDI.
 
We'll see if these navies can afford to fill all those VLS cells.

Keep in mind that a full 96-cell VLS load out costs $600-700M these days (~$7.5M for an ESSM quad-pack, $6M for SM-6, $4.25M for SM-2 Block IIICU, with 20-40% minimum reserves for test launches and wartime).
Well, the Dutch are planning to put Tomahawk on their FuADs, and they’ve just ordered ~200, so that part is taken care of.
For the remaining 80 × 4 missiles, a budget of "€1–2.5 billion" is planned, so that should be just about enough to cover your estimate.

https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/docume...ewapening-maritieme-lucht-en-raketverdediging
 
We'll see if these navies can afford to fill all those VLS cells.

Keep in mind that a full 96-cell VLS load out costs $600-700M these days (~$7.5M for an ESSM quad-pack, $6M for SM-6, $4.25M for SM-2 Block IIICU, with 20-40% minimum reserves for test launches and wartime).
...You're joking, right? Right? RIGHT?

We're talking about warships that can cost multiple billions, take a decade to design and build, and yet somehow you think that missiles have not been budgetted?

We're not the US, doing our own version of the forever war, leaving us perpetually unable to fill all our VLS.
 
We'll see if these navies can afford to fill all those VLS cells.

Keep in mind that a full 96-cell VLS load out costs $600-700M these days (~$7.5M for an ESSM quad-pack, $6M for SM-6, $4.25M for SM-2 Block IIICU, with 20-40% minimum reserves for test launches and wartime).

Yeah the USN has trouble with missile inventories. I can't imagine anyone, besides maybe PRC, doing much better there.
 
You didn't reply to my comment above about the flow on effects of making changes, especially in small hulls like the FDI.
Sure I'll summarize my thinking on a hypothetical AAW-optimized « FDI Evo ».

First, refer back to past AAW proposals by Naval Group... back in ~2005 (or thereabouts) there was an early FREMM AAW export proposal for Greece. Later in ~2008 there was a proposed AAW variant of the FM400, which was the FDI's immediate predecessor in the ~4,000t+ displacement class. Both proposed AAW variants shared 2 common characteristics - at least 32x VLS forward and the addition of a long range L-band search radar on top of the hangar. Later, Naval Group looked at ways to add more VLS in the midships superstructure, leading to the FREMM HN proposal with 24x shorter VLS (for Mica VL) along the hangar side. Ultimately this led to the idea of a hull plug on the FDI/Belharra which could be used to increase VLS capacity (somewhat similar to the Ivar Huitfeldt/T31 VLS location).

So let's summarize the key elements of increased AAW capability according to Naval Group:
1) 3D rotating L-band radar (Smart L)​
2) 32 VLS forward​
3) Additional short VLS in the superstructure​

Now FDI already has #2 (32x VLS for Aster 30 forward) and provisions for #3 (midships VLS) with the 9m hull plug option. This hull plug would allow for lightweight VLS in the 2 superstructure decks (likely 24-48x CAMM-ER or equivalent). With additional volume underneath for extra accommodation on the main deck, and if needed an extra generator room at the waterline for a pair of generators to increase electrical power. And finally additional fuel tanks in the hull bottom. Nothing particularly risky or challenging about any of that, and minimal impact on other hull sections.

The bigger change is #1 - the 3D rotating radar. But like I said, mounting a Smart L on the hangar was proposed for the original FREMM AAW and FM400 AAW. It's also been done on the Dutch LCF, Danish Ivar Huidfelt and German F124s. All with NH90 capable hangars below the Smart L. So one design as small as 4,000t+ and most of the others in the 5,500-6,000t range. That's about the same size as the proposed stretched FDI... so no obvious dealbreaker. At most you lose some internal volume, e.g. the UAV side hangar, which is OK.

If you put all this together you get the following:
- A ~5,500t AAW frigate​
- Up to 109 missiles (32x Aster 30, 48x CAMM-ER, 21x RAM, 8x NSM)​
- A comprehensive sensor fit with L-band long range search (Smart-L/MM AESA rotating), S-band multifunction radar (Seafire AESA fixed plate), and X-band self-defense/tracking radar (Sea Giraffe 1x)​

Now I'm not saying this is the same AAW or BMD capability as a 10,000t DDX or DDG-51 Flight III. But it's a lot better than a Type 45 or Horizon MLU. And you're probably at only half the price of most of those super DDGs, considering the base price of an FDI is <€800M (~€1B with missiles), even adding the cost of the hull plug, Smart L radar, and CAMM-ER missiles.

I'd rather take 2 such AAW FDIs than a single super DDG.

...You're joking, right? Right? RIGHT?

We're talking about warships that can cost multiple billions, take a decade to design and build, and yet somehow you think that missiles have not been budgetted?
No I'm not joking. I'm making the point that with AEGIS, ESSM, SM-6 etc being so expensive there's a huge opportunity cost even if you have correctly budgeted the billions needed for 10,000t destroyers + US combat systems + US missiles. It might just be better for most European navies to buy cheaper AAW platforms and fill them with a cheaper mix of missiles such as Aster 30+CAMM-MR.
 
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