The Search for a New Frigate for Germany

€11.6 billion for 8 MEKO A-200 seems just as insane … Is labor cost the main reason these costs are so high?

The 2nd batch of Type 212CD are almost €2 billion a piece for a fairly small SSKs.
 
Titus K said:
€11.6 billion for 8 MEKO A-200 seems just as insane … Is labor cost the main reason these costs are so high?
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Labor, inflation, quick production etc. all bring the cost up.

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Germany is many things but cheap. The Location is expensive and building ships is anything but cheap
 
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Speaking of the A200 DEU (aka F128), is there any sense of what armament the Bundesmarine might be looking for? Judging from the other A200s, I assume probably the 5-inch gun and a small VLS, either the same IRIS-T SLM installation as the F125s or maybe a single Mk41 building on the announced plan to integrate IRIS-T into that launcher.
 
TomS said:
Speaking of the A200 DEU (aka F128), is there any sense of what armament the Bundesmarine might be looking for? Judging from the other A200s, I assume probably the 5-inch gun and a small VLS, either the same IRIS-T SLM installation as the F125s or maybe a single Mk41 building on the announced plan to integrate IRIS-T into that launcher.
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No, we dont know much about that. In the beginning of the F128 saga it was said that they will be based on the TKMS bit to Australia. A little bit after that it was based on the F123 MLU with cost of about 1 billion per ship. Now with the cancelation of the F126 and a reported price of 1,6 billion per ship and extensive modification wishes from the navy nobody knows. Maybe we will see the the Meko 210 again I wouldnt bet on it.
 
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As an AH one might ponder had Germany opted into the Type 26 Global Combat Ship back in say 2018.
I do wonder why BAE Systems pulled out of bidding then.

Or had Germany jumped on AH120 or AH140 back in the early 2020's.
Would've put them in poll position for Sweden and Denmark.....

But "we are where we are" so the phrase goes, and now they need something....anything in as rapid a delivery as possible...

South Korea perhaps?

But no. It must be German.

So let's hope they can get things going as quickly as they claim.
 
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There only 3 options they have for this tight timeline.
1. Reusing F-126 parts which will probaly happen but i doubt on the CMS side and co. Experience with Thales was more than bad over the last programms.
2. Based of the F-123b. This seems the most likeliest because it gives you the minimum requiered capabilities for the lowest total cost as the logistical side will already be build with F-123b.
3. Custom suite based of F-123b with IRIS-T and CMS 330. I doubt we see this in the first 4 ships because it would bring a lot of potential complications and delays that could be avoided for the first couple ships. As when there finnished the Navy would have 8 ASE ships and has a little breathing room for sutch problems.
 
Talk is SAAB's CMS, as they have the capacity.

But IRS-T SLS navalised silo system prototype is scheduled for 2027.
Which suggests to me there is more pork barrel going on here than is admitted.
 
H_K said:
Perhaps because T26 is faring even worse than F126? 9 years from first steel cut and still waiting for the lead ship to start sea trials...
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Would it be in that position if Germany was also building them?
 
zen said:
Talk is SAAB's CMS, as they have the capacity.
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I.e. F-123b refit
zen said:
But IRS-T SLS navalised silo system prototype is scheduled for 2027.
Which suggests to me there is more pork barrel going on here than is admitted.
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For now the planing for IRIS-T Naval for F-125 is with CMS 330. Using CMS 330 means either a Hybrid solution with Saabs 9LV or going full CMS 330 but both bring the risk of delays something that has to be avoided.
 
zen said:
Hmmm....interesting
CMS 330
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-ca/cms330.html
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CMS 330 is soon to be the german navies future common CMS (for politics and ease of development by F-127).
zen said:
So not a German CMS, or a European CMS.
Perhaps that's why I heard mention of Sweden?
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It will probaly be as germanised as it can get but Saab 9VL is quite likely.

The F123 that the F126 now F128 should replace get a MLU with a lot of Saab and Elbit stuff. These F123(b) are maybe the base for F128 / TKMS design because the Hardware does achieve the minimum requiered capabilities and it should reduce a lot of cost and time.
 
Posting this old paper on the Meko A-200, from 2003. Lots of interesting detail... including a proposed conversion to a super-yacht (!!).

There's a good explanation of the CODAG WARP propulsion, survivability and signature reduction features, and modular options for sensor & weapons upgrades. Also the plans are interesting... I wonder how they plan on changing the mooring arrangements to fit the optional towed sonar... not a lot of place in the stern due to the gas turbine exhaust.
 

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TRAPS (Towed Reelable Active Passive Sonar) seems to be the main contender here and its a fairely small sonar and if needed could be used in an Container based solution
 

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European navies should be buying a lot of less expensive long-range frigates to escort their shipping. They need to protect their own commercial vessels going forward.
 
It mentions Strike-length VLS, I think, which suggests something more than the F123s.
 
TomS said:
It mentions Strike-length VLS, I think, which suggests something more than the F123s.
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Well the F123 have atleast tactical VLS (if not Strike but i would have to look that up). Now what im curious about is why they don't reuse the VLS from F126? Those should be strikes and there already procured
 
kqcke for you said:
F126 had its VLS on contract but that said i couldn't find a fitting FMS for this
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...tract-with-lockheed-martin-for-f126-frigates/
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It was a direct commercial sale, not FMS.

https://www.damen.com/insights-center/news/another-milestone-for-the-f126-project

I would expect that this contract will be transferred to the F128s, but there probably will be some extra expenses around designing the detailed installation for the new ships.
 
The larger F127 is going to be 12,000 tons with 96 strike length Mk 41 VLS. It appears F128 is to be about 1/3 that size with only 16 self-defense length Mk 41 VLS. The F128 seems awfully under equipped in comparison. It is a missed opportunity to not scale up to get at least some tactical length VLS in the F128.
 
MadRat said:
The larger F127 is going to be 12,000 tons with 96 strike length Mk 41 VLS. It appears F128 is to be about 1/3 that size with only 16 self-defense length Mk 41 VLS. The F128 seems awfully under equipped in comparison. It is a missed opportunity to not scale up to get at least some tactical length VLS in the F128.
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You do realize that the F128 like the conceptual F126 before it is an ASW frigate, like the ships they'll replace. An ASW frigate doesn't need anything beyond SAMs for self defense and the necessary weapons to snuff out submarines and XLUUVs.

When your ASW frigate is equipped like an AAW destroyer, then something went fundamentally wrong.
 
MadRat said:
The larger F127 is going to be 12,000 tons with 96 strike length Mk 41 VLS. It appears F128 is to be about 1/3 that size with only 16 self-defense length Mk 41 VLS. The F128 seems awfully under equipped in comparison. It is a missed opportunity to not scale up to get at least some tactical length VLS in the F128.
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Provided F128 receives at least APAR and 1 RAM 2 (the German navy standard is 2, although it is hard to see it being maintained on MEKO), its self-defense capability (including group defense) will roughly match the international standard.
ESSM Block 2 is often disregarded as a quadpack, but that's actually a lot of missile capability.

16x Mk.41 ships are no joke. Tbh, unless BM procures VL-ASROC - it's almost too much of it. Just filling 16 cells with ESSM (2.3 mil apiece for USN, more for export) will cost you a price of a small corvette.
 
MadRat said:
The larger F127 is going to be 12,000 tons with 96 strike length Mk 41 VLS. It appears F128 is to be about 1/3 that size with only 16 self-defense length Mk 41 VLS.
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Strike actualy....
MadRat said:
The F128 seems awfully under equipped icomparison. It is a missed opportunity to not scale up to get at least some tactical length VLS in the F128.
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Its the same size as F126 and as mutch as needed for the self defense capabilities that the BW asked for.

Its also likely that the second batch could have more since a larger refit/modernisation/Adaptation is possible.

Ainen said:
Provided F128 receives at least APAR and 1 RAM 2 (the German navy standard is 2, although it is hard to see it being maintained on MEKO),
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As of right now it wont have 2 RAM but they could reuse the twin aft launcher setup from the F122 class...
And it wont use APAR or TRS-4D.
Ainen said:
its self-defense capability (including group defense) will roughly match the international standard.
ESSM Block 2 is often disregarded as a quadpack, but that's actually a lot of missile capability.
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Yes 64 in total.
Ainen said:
16x Mk.41 ships are no joke. Tbh, unless BM procures VL-ASROC - it's almost too much of it. Just filling 16 cells with ESSM (2.3 mil apiece for USN, more for export) will cost you a price of a small corvette.
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Well if you shoot 2 to 3 missile per anti ship missile then its not that mutch but with Laser and the 76mm it will be very protected
 
EmoBirb said:
You do realize that the F128 like the conceptual F126 before it is an ASW frigate, like the ships they'll replace. An ASW frigate doesn't need anything beyond SAMs for self defense and the necessary weapons to snuff out submarines and XLUUVs.

When your ASW frigate is equipped like an AAW destroyer, then something went fundamentally wrong.
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How many Russian air bases are within say, 200km of the Baltic Sea?

Because that is the air threat environment that the German Navy is having to design around.
 
Scott Kenny said:
How many Russian air bases are within say, 200km of the Baltic Sea?

Because that is the air threat environment that the German Navy is having to design around.
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The baltic sea is the smaller threat the F128 has to deal with (there like 1 active Submarine there at the moment if i have the numbers right) and it would be mutch more in the north sea
 
Scott Kenny said:
How many Russian air bases are within say, 200km of the Baltic Sea?

Because that is the air threat environment that the German Navy is having to design around.
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And how many ships will accompany the F128s to provide AD coverage?
 
exclaimedleech8 said:
Never thought I'd be happy to read about a German naval buildup
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When the RN is a rotting corpse and Scandinavia mostly fielding small corvettes and not much larger frigates, then other countries have to step up to secure the North Atlantic together with the Americans and in part the French as well.
 
MadRat said:
The larger F127 is going to be 12,000 tons with 96 strike length Mk 41 VLS. It appears F128 is to be about 1/3 that size with only 16 self-defense length Mk 41 VLS. The F128 seems awfully under equipped in comparison. It is a missed opportunity to not scale up to get at least some tactical length VLS in the F128.
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The Hartpunkt article specifically says strike-length VLS, a departure from the RAN spec. But even if tactical, a base of 16 cells (64 missiles), plus a 21-cell RAM launcher, is fine for an ASW ship with no pretensions of strike capacity. It's exactly the same capacity planned for the F126s.
 
kqcke for you said:
The baltic sea is the smaller threat the F128 has to deal with (there like 1 active Submarine there at the moment if i have the numbers right) and it would be mutch more in the north sea
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Smaller submarine threat, much larger Air and "coastal artillery" missile threat.



EmoBirb said:
And how many ships will accompany the F128s to provide AD coverage?
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Knowing the German Navy? None. At best you would see 1x AAW frigate for every 2 ASW/GP frigates.

That's assuming that the various Corvettes don't need any coverage, since all the K130s have for AA is a pair of RAM launchers!

If you're building a GP FF, you need most of what used to be the standard for an AAW FF these days. The floor for minimum capability has risen greatly! The ship Germany is replacing has space for 16x Mk41 cells. 64x ESSMs.

64x ESSM is great, till someone starts throwing hypersonics at you. Now you need SM6s. Which means something like 16 cells that are Strike Length, in addition to the 16 cells for ESSMs. In your GP/ASW frigate.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Smaller submarine threat, much larger Air and "coastal artillery" missile threat.




Knowing the German Navy? None. At best you would see 1x AAW frigate for every 2 ASW/GP frigates.

That's assuming that the various Corvettes don't need any coverage, since all the K130s have for AA is a pair of RAM launchers!

If you're building a GP FF, you need most of what used to be the standard for an AAW FF these days. The floor for minimum capability has risen greatly! The ship Germany is replacing has space for 16x Mk41 cells. 64x ESSMs.

64x ESSM is great, till someone starts throwing hypersonics at you. Now you need SM6s. Which means something like 16 cells that are Strike Length, in addition to the 16 cells for ESSMs. In your GP/ASW frigate.
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So in youre opinion there is not a single good frigate in Europe? Because there is not a single Ship that can defend against hypersonics.
 
One wonders what minor (surface) navies are good for? It isn't doing sea control or denial.

Maybe it is better to just have weapon containers that can be used to fight a land war if it is not a naval war, and just use container ships otherwise, if odds of naval action is low.
 

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