Electric vehicle discussion

No pleasing some
https://techxplore.com/news/2026-06-electric-suv-boom-problem-climate.html
Electric SUVs may reduce tailpipe emissions compared with petrol and diesel SUVs, but they still need larger batteries, more raw materials, more energy and more road space than smaller electric cars. Their greater weight can also contribute to pollution from tire, brake and road wear, including fine particulate matter linked to respiratory and cardiovascular diseases.

Crashes of self-drivers
https://techxplore.com/news/2026-06-driverless-cars.html
For the first time, new algorithms may be able to automatically explain why some self-driving cars crash—a question crucial to answer as more autonomous vehicles take to the roads. This new approach, developed by researchers at King's College London, reviews past events to explain why specific instances of failure happened, in the hope that this can be used to make improvements in the future.The research was presented at the 2026 IEEE International Conference of Robotics and Automation.

Good news!
https://techxplore.com/news/2026-06-100kw-fully-superconducting-aviation-motor.html
The prototype system, created by the Applied Superconductivity Laboratory (ASL) at the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow, represents one of the first attempts in the world to develop a fully superconducting axial-flux motor for aviation.

The motor uses high temperature superconducting (HTS) technology to carry very large electrical currents with almost no resistance when cooled to cryogenic temperatures: 20 Kelvin (K) or -253 °C.

This could allow aircraft motors to achieve much higher power density than conventional electrical machines—a key requirement for future hydrogen-electric and fully electric aircraft.

Magnets
https://techxplore.com/news/2026-06-ai-driven-roadmap-future-permanent.html

Hacks
https://hackaday.com/2026/06/01/on-the-wisdom-of-replacing-a-nimh-module-in-a-prius-battery-pack/
 
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This designer breaks down what distinguishes car design from product design. He argues that what makes a beautiful mouse does not necessarily make a beautiful car - scale, viewing angle and the fact that Ferraris go very fast all make a fundamental difference to the rules of good design.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCPfLgq4n3I


Still, at a third the price and with Volkswagen badges, I'd applaud it.
 
With all the automotive manufacturing experience they have, I expected something more capable. It's range is so poor that even as a taxi it's not practical.

Edit: I saw this on another forum. Apparently it was designed with help from China.

"Investigations revealed that the Olinia project utilized technical design services from Dayang (and Henrey) for its powertrain, with the Olinia's design heavily influenced by the Dayang Chok S6.”


https://twitter.com/x/status/2063820812575269092
View: https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/2063820812575269092

https://twitter.com/x/status/2063709056657957273
View: https://x.com/Claudiashein/status/2063709056657957273

https://twitter.com/x/status/2063715277699715160
View: https://x.com/FreddyOliviery/status/2063715277699715160
 
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Well, Mexico was manufacturing copies of this until 2003:

OIP.f8o6xv-EOTSDlb6Rnlf7cgHaFj
 
Brett Davidson said:
Still, at a third the price and with Volkswagen badges, I'd applaud it.
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In trying to attract new buyers - how many? - Ferrari might be driving away its traditional buyers in such numbers that Ferrari will be hurt. Buyers, traditional or new, being human, don't live forever.
For reasons, I belong to neither group. The Luce's design is only a very small factor in why I will not be joining the queue to buy one.
I will be following how the Luce sells, because I am curious about that.
 
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alberchico said:
https://evwire.com/p/olinia-uno-mexico-first-electric-car-specs-price-release-date

Some harsh words from the owner of Mexico's best selling motorcycle brand about this project:

"The perfect image of the difference between a private entrepreneur who manufactures and sells useful products at a good price for people, and a government that develops absurd, expensive, and pointless projects.”
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Yea, a six-seat electric cart that does 30 mph at most--probably more like 20 with six people aboard--and has a maybe 60-mile range on a good day...
 
Rolls-Royce updates Spectre EV — one of the few luxury EVs performing well

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/r...few-luxury-evs-performing-well-144800399.html

I see we are still on the Luce, as before 99.9% of those who make comments about the Luce will never drive, own or even any Ferrari model.

The non‑owners are waxing poetically about “the purity of the driving experience” like they’ve just been doing laps at Fiorano.

To think for a second Ferrari owners are going to dump their vehicles in protest hints of delusion.

Those who know Ferrari know all the issues/gremlins that come with them, good/bad. And don't talk like the marketing material.

The funniest point I have always found a total oxymoron is that Ferrari has even convinced the fanboys that doing the school run at 20km and trying to miss speed humps is exactly the same feeling as doing 280km on the track.

While Ferrari is known for status and luxury, it is largely considered a high-volume hand built exotic rather than the most exclusive.

Ultra-low-volume manufacturers like Bugatti, Pagani, and Koenigsegg produce far fewer cars, while bespoke brands like Rolls-Royce dominate higher price brackets.

Ferrari have very high margins in the business, slightly over 50%. Work it out on ~2,000 units at €550,000, the stock is higher since the announcement as well.

Wonder why?

As before Ferrari doesn't care, and the Luce will sell like crazy.

Regards,
 
The only thing that matters is the Ferrari badge.

Remember when Porsche came out with an SUV, everybody mocked it and then it became their best seller?
 
Halcyon66 said:
I see we are still on the Luce, as before 99.9% of those who make comments about the Luce will never drive, own or even any Ferrari model.
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People who buy and especially collect Ferraris and are heavily invested in the brand share the sentiment, I've heard that first hand from two people now, ignoring the various owners on the Ferrari forum who are beyond underwhelmed.

The issue with the Luce is that it's performance isn't outstanding, it's left in the dust by vehicles like the Taycan Turbo GT or Yangwang U9. It's not cutting edge either, compared to what's brand new in China, the Luce is beyond conservative. Lastly it cannot score points with visual appeal either, it's no Pininfarina Battista by any means. In short, it's a vehicle with a steep asking price that doesn't have a single redeeming quality beyond the badge.

The Roma and SF90 were both infinitely more appealing cars, and both are sitting in show rooms, with the Ferrari customer base having rejected both, neither being particularly strong on the used market and there being far more supply than demand. The Luce will end up the same. Meanwhile Purosangue is flying off the assembly line, with order books full for the next couple years.

The only reason someone would buy a Luce is to get the opportunity to be offered a more exclusive model. Like the "speciale" version of the Purosangue, the 12Cilindri high performance trim etc. Because the car doesn't appeal to Ferrari customers nor does it appeal to tech and EV enthusiasts. It's lacking in the areas that would make it worthwhile for either side of the potential customer base.

The fact that Ferrari essentially outsourced the design to a third party should also tell anyone familiar with the workings at Maranello how the vehicle is viewed by Ferrari itself, which isn't favorable.
 
exclaimedleech8 said:
The only thing that matters is the Ferrari badge.

Remember when Porsche came out with an SUV, everybody mocked it and then it became their best seller?
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The Cayenne and Touareg of the first generation didn't simply live from brand recognition, the first generation Cayenne was an extremely competent car and there wasn't really anything like it at the time, Range Rover and the X5 were not even close in comparison to it. Having spend a good portion of my childhood in one, in many ways it's a more formidable car than many vehicles produced since the late 2010s and early 2020s.
 
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Charging advance
https://techxplore.com/news/2026-06-gan-power-electronics-bidirectional-phase.html

Researchers at the Fraunhofer Institute for Applied Solid State Physics IAF have developed a gallium nitride (GaN)-based power electronics module for 800-volt bidirectional direct current (DC) charging systems. The module is part of the GaN4EmoBiL project ("GaN Power Semiconductors for Electric Mobility and System Integration via Bidirectional Charging"). Project partner Ambibox GmbH integrated the module into the demonstrator of a bidirectional, single-phase off-board charger for electric vehicles (EVs). The Fraunhofer IAF module uses 1,200-volt GaN devices fabricated on an insulating substrate. The superior properties of the devices are to be evaluated through their use in the demonstrator with battery voltages ranging from 150 volts to a maximum of 920 volts. The successful development underscores the enormous potential that GaN-based power electronics hold for the future of electric mobility.

https://techxplore.com/news/2026-06-battery-wheels-sweden-powers-homes.html
When they get home, the residents of a small housing association on the outskirts of Hudiksvall, Sweden, plug in their electric vehicles to charge them or, intriguingly, power their homes.
https://hackaday.com/2026/06/17/solid-state-batteries-take-to-the-sky/
https://hackaday.com/2026/06/15/custers-revenge-evtol-drone-brings-back-channel-wings/
 
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TinWing said:
Sedans like the Honda Civic sell the best in California where fuel prices are high because of supply chain issues, such as closing refineries, a lack of pipelines and high state taxes. Californias have less discretionary income due to higher costs of living than other American so sedans appeal to them, much in the same way as in Canada.

Personally, I can’t see why anyone other than a Californian or Door Dash/Uber/Lyft driver would want something like a Toyota Camry, which is now hybrid only. The ground clearance is ridiculously low for the snow belt and hybrids don’t age well for low mileage users. Don’t get me wrong, Toyota Hybrids make great taxi cabs but are annoying to drive because of the hybrid and safety nanny quirks. If I want to drag my front spoiler at every gas station, I’d drive an old Corvette.
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Your statement on California is hilariously wrong. If there's something Californians have is discretionary income (cause we cant afford houses). The roads are packed with Teslas and Porsches because Californians earn very well and the cars cost the same.
 
EmoBirb said:
People who buy and especially collect Ferraris and are heavily invested in the brand share the sentiment, I've heard that first hand from two people now, ignoring the various owners on the Ferrari forum who are beyond underwhelmed.
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People who buy Ferrari's are one thing, those that collect Ferrari's are in a completely other realm.

Do you need anything to go buy a Ferrari, nope, they are all over the place. And these ones are just depreciating (quite quickly) assets.

Now the collectable Ferrari's are certain earlier models and limited editions, yet some of those special versions NOW will never have the massive resale of the earlier low volume classics and hypercars.

Sure, they may not fall in price so fast, yet they are still going to fall.

The Roma has two major issues and that is door mechanism can pinch or catch your fingers and the other ground clearance. And guess what it sold over 2100 units and was considered a success. And as it was aimed as an entry level Ferrari which of course the fanboys wanted nothing to do with it. Not sure how they are sitting in show rooms as discontinued in late 2024.
The SF90 was a monster in Ferrari in mechanical terms with 1000hp and hybrid setup. All new tech and showed Ferrari could master high-performance electrification without losing the brand's signature drama. How sold about 5~6000 in the Coupe and Spider.

Huge numbers.

Resale was its curse, yet now a whole new group of customers can buy one at a very steep discount. Maybe that will equal new customers going forward. I wonder how many Ferrari owners die every year, they need to find new ones I guess somewhere.

So as in an earlier post not all Ferrari models have to be a smashing success at every level, because they pave the way for other models that do.

Ferrari doesn't tell people they have to buy their cars, and Ferrari doesn't guarantee their resale or collectability.

The secondary market does that, if you're a Ferrari owner and you are worried about your resale, you just never bought a good model in the first place.

Also estimates suggest that anywhere from 40% to 70% of active users on general Ferrari forums (like FerrariChat) or groups do not currently own a Ferrari.

EmoBirb said:
The fact that Ferrari essentially outsourced the design to a third party should also tell anyone familiar with the workings at Maranello how the vehicle is viewed by Ferrari itself, which isn't favorable.
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Isn't favorable to who, when you want something different you have to go about it in a different way.

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/how-jony-ives-team-designed-the-first-electric-ferrari

It all points to a car that was allowed to start from scratch, rather than being shaped around an existing Ferrari. Whether buyers warm to such a clean, design-led approach remains to be seen, but the Luce is clearly a deliberate departure for the brand.
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"Deliberate" being the operative word.

Regards,
 
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There have been individual models of Ferrari that failed and failed bigtime in the past. The Luce appears destined for the same fate.
 
There have been individual models of Ferrari that failed and failed bigtime in the past. The Luce appears destined for the same fate.
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And yet Ferrari still exists.......................................................................................

Regards,
 
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What is yours?

I guess just like Ferrari, EU, China and the rest of the world are forcing people to buy EV.

Strange how some get so angry about EV's?

No one is telling you to buy one.

If you don't get it, you don't get it.

Regards,
 
Actually, I just realized that many of those with negative posts regarding the Luce do not realise how Ferrari operates.

Ferrari's order books for the Luce opened to existing clients prior to the official reveal, basically VIP buyers secured allocations way before the public even knew what it looked like.

Despite the harsh online reception, CEO Benedetto Vigna has confirmed that orders for the Luce are coming in from both established and new customers.

The €550,000 (roughly $640,000 USD) car is already sold out through the end of 2027 with first deliveries in October 2026.

Pretty simple what Ferrari aficionado would not buy the "First electric vehicle in history" from Ferrari among others that see the upside for EV's no matter the haters, who I am sure never got the email.

Hence, I have been saying it will sell like crazy

Yep what a disaster..........................

Regards,
 
Halcyon66 said:
What is yours?

I guess just like Ferrari, EU, China and the rest of the world are forcing people to buy EV.

Strange how some get so angry about EV's?

No one is telling you to buy one.

If you don't get it, you don't get it.

Regards,
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Actually, many Left leaning, politically, countries ARE telling you to buy one. 12 US states have EV mandates that by 2035 100% of new car sales in those states will be EV's. That leaves residents with few choices. While this is currently blocked by the federal government, a change of administration could see that shift.

The EU, UK, and Canada are headed the same direction with bans on alternatives to EV's coming in 2035. China hasn't gone that far yet, but has heavy incentives to go EV rather than ICE in place.

What has people angry is this government 'one size fits all' legislative fiat the gives the public no choices and the government choice is seen as unsuitable, poor, or unwanted by many.

There are few economic upsides to these mandates while there are a great many downsides to them as well. This is particularly true in larger nations, like the US and China, where rural areas simply cannot support EV's as a technology.
 
Halcyon66 said:
We have them everywhere. Quicker petrol/diesel gone the better.

Not political for us.

View attachment 814922

This map is public changing stations, add to that those that charge at home.

We got it covered.

Regards,
Click to expand...
That’s a very large scale map that ignores the reality of the agricultural and natural resources sectors that are the primary economic drivers in Australia. So far, with the Cybertruck fiasco, the world has yet to see a practical electric light truck, which is a big problem where diesel 4x4 utes are the best sellers. The F-150 Lightning is dead and the EV Hilux is a total joke. Moreover, show me a practical electric farm tractor or piece of heavy earth moving equipment?
 

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TwoTribes said:
华能睿驰. Mining truck. It is not only an electric vehicle but also a unmanned vehicle.

https://news.cyol.com/gb/articles/2025-05/16/content_77MGw6SeEN.html
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The very fact that you had to post an article entirely in Chinese more or less proves my point. Besides, this thing is entirely undersized compared to the enormous off highway trucks typically used in strip mining.

And actually, what is the point of using a “zero emissions” vehicle to strip mine coal? Using “green” technology to enable the extraction of coal would seem to defeat the original environment purpose?
 
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TinWing said:
The very fact that you had to post an article entirely in Chinese more or less proves my point.
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Do you have a bias against China? China leads the world in EVs. An electric mining truck in China—what's weird about that? A Chinese report on it—what's weird about that?

TinWing said:
Besides, this thing is entirely undersized compared to the enormous off highway trucks typically used in strip mining.
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Does this vehicle qualify as "heavy earth moving equipment"? How long are you going to keep jabbering?

TinWing said:
And actually, what is the point of using a “zero emissions” vehicle to strip mine coal? Using “green” technology to enable the extraction of coal would seem to defeat the original environment purpose?
Click to expand...
?
 
TinWing said:
That’s a very large scale map that ignores the reality of the agricultural and natural resources sectors that are the primary economic drivers in Australia. So far, with the Cybertruck fiasco, the world has yet to see a practical electric light truck, which is a big problem where diesel 4x4 utes are the best sellers. The F-150 Lightning is dead and the EV Hilux is a total joke.
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The replacement F-150 Lightning is getting a gasoline range extender. IIRC so is the HiLux.

Part of the trick of Plug-in Hybrids is getting the operators to use the truck as an Electric and plug the thing in at night instead of leaving the battery low and keeping the gas tank full.

TinWing said:
Moreover, show me a practical electric farm tractor or piece of heavy earth moving equipment?
Click to expand...
Every heavy haul truck made for the last 40 years has been diesel-electric. All of the big mining trucks have electric motors driving the wheels.

The John Deere 8R series is a 100-200hp hybrid. TAFE makes a 75hp hybrid, the EVX-75. The Deere has pretty good market penetration, though it's still on a lot of farmer's hate list due to the lack of right to repair. TAFE EVX-75 seems to do well in Europe.

Farm gear is bought on the assumption that there will be one day in a decade where the farmer needs to harvest everything more than 10x faster than they normally do things, the whole harvest MUST come in that day.. So their cutters, their combines, etc, are all sized for this emergency use. And the machines tend to not get replaced until the new big machine is a lot better than their old one.
 
BYD sold 18,073 Shark 6 utes in 2025 alone, carving out fourth place in the segment and stealing market share away from traditional leaders like the Ford Ranger and Toyota HiLux. It is a Hybrid.

BYD is continuing a heavy supply push. Using its own massive seafaring vehicle carriers, the company is bringing over 30,000 vehicles to Australia across May and June 2026 to ensure dealers remain fully stocked with the Shark 6, Sealion 7, and Atto 2.

Yep, nothing to see here.....................

Once again somewhat strange how people hate something they don't have to own.

Regards,
 
Scott Kenny said:
The replacement F-150 Lightning is getting a gasoline range extender. IIRC so is the HiLux.

Part of the trick of Plug-in Hybrids is getting the operators to use the truck as an Electric and plug the thing in at night instead of leaving the battery low and keeping the gas tank full.


Every heavy haul truck made for the last 40 years has been diesel-electric. All of the big mining trucks have electric motors driving the wheels.

The John Deere 8R series is a 100-200hp hybrid. TAFE makes a 75hp hybrid, the EVX-75. The Deere has pretty good market penetration, though it's still on a lot of farmer's hate list due to the lack of right to repair. TAFE EVX-75 seems to do well in Europe.

Farm gear is bought on the assumption that there will be one day in a decade where the farmer needs to harvest everything more than 10x faster than they normally do things, the whole harvest MUST come in that day.. So their cutters, their combines, etc, are all sized for this emergency use. And the machines tend to not get replaced until the new big machine is a lot better than their old one.
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The problem with using batteries to replace the diesel engine-generator combo is the same one with battery cars in general. That is, the batteries weigh massively more. That reduces the carrying capacity of the truck meaning you either have more trucks doing the same job or you accept a lower rate of ore movement out of the mine.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
The problem with using batteries to replace the diesel engine-generator combo is the same one with battery cars in general. That is, the batteries weigh massively more. That reduces the carrying capacity of the truck meaning you either have more trucks doing the same job or you accept a lower rate of ore movement out of the mine.
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Not really. Semi-sized diesel engines are heavy. Cat C13s weigh in at over 2600lbs. Transmission is another 1000lbs. Oh, and the E-axles are apparently lighter than a traditional axle by some 900-1000lbs.

So you have to have a battery pack plus generator that weighs more than 4500lbs, or a pure battery pack that weighs more than 5500lbs before it's actually heavier than a dino-burner.

Plus, depending on just what kind of driving the hauler does, it may be perfectly fine. Going downhill fully loaded while going uphill empty is the classic example.

Apparently there is a mining train in Australia that uses battery locomotives, the descent from the mine to the waterfront charges the batteries via dynamic/regenerative braking, and the trip back up does not completely drain them.
 
Seismic changes in the car market. Different factors, affecting different people to differing degrees, but all combining in overall effect. A fustercluck, a perfect storm, or 绝佳机会, depending on where you stand.

Short term crashes in profitability by traditional brands switching to - and then away from - EV-only plans by 2035. I might add, that while governments backtracked on EV-supporting policies (especially in the US), then the US-Iran war started, and while it might supposedly be over (cough), oil prices won't come down soon as for technical reasons it takes months to fully restart an oilfield that's been shut down. This demonstrates the inherent instability of the fossil fuel supply, so there might be another expensive U-turn back to EV-only policies.

Democratisation of features - a Corvette equals or betters the performance of a Lamborghini costing much more.

Brands mean less, since even top luxury brands are assemblers of the same third-party components. Buying for the badge looks less rational than absurd, and there's a trend towards understated luxury now. Supposedly, even Bezosbub wants to sell his yacht as it's attracting too much of the wrong attention.

China! Traditional luxury makers were doing well in China, but a surge in nationalism is being met with a surge in new brands, volume, and quality - and Chinese brands are headhunting European design talent - so that boom is over while new Chinese brands that didn't exist five years ago are expanding at a phenomenal pace. A Xiaomi YU7 looks like a Ferrari Purosangue, goes like one, and costs nothing like one.

Financing. There are two sides to this. On one hand, the cost of living crisis means that people have to think very carefully about their outgoing costs and loans are getting harder to get and service. On the other hand, car manufacture is an extremely capital-intensive business (r+d, manufacturing plant, sometimes racing), so profits are precarious and can tip to a loss with only a small change in revenue or costs.

(You know, if you want to make money in a gold rush, sell picks, shovels, and beans.)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUBBqAjVuco


Not covered here, but with European rearmament, a number of manufacturers on the continent are looking to turning their factories over to the production of military equipment - obviously drones, but also other stuff - as a lifeline.
 
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Scott Kenny said:
Not really. Semi-sized diesel engines are heavy. Cat C13s weigh in at over 2600lbs. Transmission is another 1000lbs. Oh, and the E-axles are apparently lighter than a traditional axle by some 900-1000lbs.

So you have to have a battery pack plus generator that weighs more than 4500lbs, or a pure battery pack that weighs more than 5500lbs before it's actually heavier than a dino-burner.

Plus, depending on just what kind of driving the hauler does, it may be perfectly fine. Going downhill fully loaded while going uphill empty is the classic example.

Apparently there is a mining train in Australia that uses battery locomotives, the descent from the mine to the waterfront charges the batteries via dynamic/regenerative braking, and the trip back up does not completely drain them.
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Actually, this is a huge problem with semi-tractor commercial trucks. The gross weight limit on interstate trucking is 80,000 lbs. Roads are designed to accommodate that weight limit. This means that to get the range necessary to make a EV truck work requires a battery that adds 5,000, 8,000 lbs., or whatever to the empty vehicle weight that means you are now carrying that much less cargo. Since you can now carry less cargo but still have to meet the same expenses--assume these as equal otherwise--the price per pound of cargo rises.

The result is that commercially, EV (battery) semi-tractors cannot compete with diesel semi-tractors due to this maximum weight limitation. They generate higher cargo costs simply because less weight of cargo can be carried per vehicle.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Actually, this is a huge problem with semi-tractor commercial trucks. The gross weight limit on interstate trucking is 80,000 lbs. Roads are designed to accommodate that weight limit. This means that to get the range necessary to make a EV truck work requires a battery that adds 5,000, 8,000 lbs., or whatever to the empty vehicle weight that means you are now carrying that much less cargo. Since you can now carry less cargo but still have to meet the same expenses--assume these as equal otherwise--the price per pound of cargo rises.

The result is that commercially, EV (battery) semi-tractors cannot compete with diesel semi-tractors due to this maximum weight limitation. They generate higher cargo costs simply because less weight of cargo can be carried per vehicle.
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You're correct but missing an important detail.

A 400kw diesel-electric generator is approximately 1000lbs lighter than a C13, does not require a 1000lb transmission, and the 2-4 E-axles are each approximately 500lbs lighter than a mechanical axle.

Which gives you weight allowance for 3000-4000lbs of battery pack.
 
Scott Kenny said:
You're correct but missing an important detail.

A 400kw diesel-electric generator is approximately 1000lbs lighter than a C13, does not require a 1000lb transmission, and the 2-4 E-axles are each approximately 500lbs lighter than a mechanical axle.

Which gives you weight allowance for 3000-4000lbs of battery pack.
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There is no “400kw diesel-electric generator” that is EPA certified for on highway use. Caterpillar left the highway diesel market back in 2008, so I can’t imagine why the weight of the C13 is relevant? Moreover, hooking up a diesel to a generator results in much greater weight and power losses than mechanical transmission. This is precisely why small diesel shunter locomotives are often diesel hydraulic while the larger mainline locomotives are diesel electric. Diesel electric drive doesn’t scale down very well. It certainly doesn’t scale down to Class 8 trucks.

Class 8 trucks, aside from Tatras, invariably use live axles which makes a differential mounted electric motor a problem in terms of unsprung weight, making an electric Class 8 truck much harder on the road surface than a direct drive diesel with the same maximum weight.

The entire diesel electric debate is predicated on ludicrous claims from a group of bearded hipsters with a YouTube channel. The British Colombia iteration of the unfortunately named “Edison Motors” should be considered solely on basis of entertainment value.
 

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