What you suggested though is the USN would have approached NG and said, hey you know that design from 1990 that didn't get beyond concept phase lets dust that off and use it today...

I'm not disputing whether the design had merit. What I am disputing is whether the USN had anyone around who remembered NATF and why they would start at that point.


None of this is relevant to whether the USN approached NG and said we want to use the NATF-23.


It isn't the USN's job to review old designs, it is their job to decide what they want and then issue Industry with the set of requirements. If those line up with the NATF-23 then happy days for NG.
What due you mean not relevant, if previous (so-called older designs) have merit, no reason these cannot be considered. It's also the job of the contractor to offer guidance to the services due to lots of decades of experience and knowledge. At the end of the A-12 program, the USN sure did state they should have listened to the Northrop team and they would have had an aircraft. I guess in the 2020's, the B-1, B-2 and B-52 need to be retired immediately, they may not meet new bomber requirements.

NG can review with the USN the design aspects of F-23 and NATF-23 (including X-47B) which will help in developing requirements. Our military in recent times have really screwed up programs with we know better attitudes. The F-23 was designed with VLO and BVR engagements which is what the NGAD requirements are. And I believe NG and the USN are doing just that, same as with NG and USAF regarding B-21. Contractors know just as much (maybe more so) as the govt when it comes to requirements definition, mission planning, etc.
 
It isn't the USN's job to review old designs, it is their job to decide what they want and then issue Industry with the set of requirements. If those line up with the NATF-23 then happy days for NG.
seconded. it’s down to the primes to utilize old studies and designs to help inform their clean sheet design philosophy. NG could and would absolutely utilize YF-23 data to help inform their design path. USN doesn’t give a damn if it’s a blonde or brunette, they just know how they want her to behave (lol)

Again, I was on the program among others and it would be foolish for the USN not review what we did and what we accomplished, the F-23 design is actually relevant to the missions today, that's what we designed for.
YF-23 as a whole more than likely would not meet the airframe specifications and performance criteria that USN put forward. Even being ahead of its time, it’s probably not sufficient for 6th gen criteria - but undoubtedly it would provide some key lessons.
 
seconded. it’s down to the primes to utilize old studies and designs to help inform their clean sheet design philosophy. NG could and would absolutely utilize YF-23 data to help inform their design path. USN doesn’t give a damn if it’s a blonde or brunette, they just know how they want her to behave (lol)


YF-23 as a whole more than likely would not meet the airframe specifications and performance criteria that USN put forward. Even being ahead of its time, it’s probably not sufficient for 6th gen criteria - but undoubtedly it would provide some key lessons.
A lot of work went into their NATF. There's no way lessons there wouldn't be looked at.
 
Northrop woud have learned a lot from their NATF design I would think Sferrin and apply that knowledge to the current F/A-XX design.
 
A lot of work went into their NATF. There's no way lessons there wouldn't be looked at.
Perhaps. Hydroman can confirm but I suspect the submission was probably papar with associated 5.25, 3.5 floppy disks or Exabyte tapes. Would the USN have looked at that submission 20 years later, if they could even find it, and had the technology to open it? For NG yes by what Hydroman has shared they clearly put a lot of effort into it but there were likely no full digital design plans that then moved forward with technology advances and their NATF, as far as I can tell, was never anything more than a proposal, as in it was never assembled or flew.

The lessons you learn from closed programs are often not written down, locked away to be relooked at 20 years later but more likely folded into subsequent programs and technology developments.

What due you mean not relevant, if previous (so-called older designs) have merit, no reason these cannot be considered.
Not relevant becuase they don't offer any additional info or support to the claim the USN would have approached NG in 2011 about the NATF-23.
It's also the job of the contractor to offer guidance to the services due to lots of decades of experience and knowledge. At the end of the A-12 program, the USN sure did state they should have listened to the Northrop team and they would have had an aircraft.
When asked but the US Govt has to be incredibly careful about probity and not allow one contractor to influence a tender submission and requirement set unfairly. As for the A-12, yes that is the thing the USN can say when a program finishes.
I guess in the 2020's, the B-1, B-2 and B-52 need to be retired immediately, they may not meet new bomber requirements.
What does this have to do with anything?
 
Perhaps. Hydroman can confirm but I suspect the submission was probably papar with associated 5.25, 3.5 floppy disks or Exabyte tapes. Would the USN have looked at that submission 20 years later, if they could even find it, and had the technology to open it? For NG yes by what Hydroman has shared they clearly put a lot of effort into it but there were likely no full digital design plans that then moved forward with technology advances and their NATF, as far as I can tell, was never anything more than a proposal, as in it was never assembled or flew.
The B2 was designed completely in CATIA. The F22/F23 should have been done in CATIA v5.
 
Some of the new / proposed naval UAVs have a Asuw torpedo capability, albeit against small craft for the moment.
All airdropped torpedoes currently in production are ASW, not ASuW.

But airdropped LWTs would be reasonably useful against smaller craft with ~100lb warheads.



The F-119 is a mostly clean sheet design compared to the F100, while the F110 is a deeply upgraded variant of the same. The F135 again is an evolution of the F-119 tech, with the X-engines representing another generational change.
Analogously, we have the F404, and its upgraded variant, the F414, but I'm not aware of any generational changes in this size/thrush class.

As for other entries in this area, the EJ200 and WS-19 are on a similar technology level as the F-119, so yes, in this weight class, there are more advanced engines than what the US currently produces.

Seeing how they're aggresively pursuing a drop in replacement for the F18, and the twin-engine requirement is strongly hinted at, it's very likely they dont want an engine in the F110 weight class, but something smaller (which all these X-engines fall into), it would make sense to me that such an engine would exist.
No, the size aircraft you need for internal carriage of greater-than-F-35 warloads means you need something roughly F-14 sized or larger.

Which means F110 or F119 class engines. (Current top end F110s are broadly comparable in power to what rumors say F119s are actually making, ~32.5klbs)



What you suggested though is the USN would have approached NG and said, hey you know that design from 1990 that didn't get beyond concept phase lets dust that off and use it today...

I'm not disputing whether the design had merit. What I am disputing is whether the USN had anyone around who remembered NATF and why they would start at that point.
It's likely that some of the 30year veterans would remember NATF. And anyone that went from Active Military to Navy Civilian work would have been around for both.
 
It would be interesting to see an airdropped variant of the Mk-48 ADCAP.
That would be a serious thing to drop. Torpedo itself is ~3500lbs, add the airdrop stuff and we're probably talking 4000lbs. Also, it'd be a really long thing to drop, the bare torpedo is ~21ft long plus however long the airdrop stuff ends up.

So we're basically talking about dropping a GBU-28!
 
All airdropped torpedoes currently in production are ASW, not ASuW.

But airdropped LWTs would be reasonably useful against smaller craft with ~100lb warheads.




No, the size aircraft you need for internal carriage of greater-than-F-35 warloads means you need something roughly F-14 sized or larger.

Which means F110 or F119 class engines. (Current top end F110s are broadly comparable in power to what rumors say F119s are actually making, ~32.5klbs)




It's likely that some of the 30year veterans would remember NATF. And anyone that went from Active Military to Navy Civilian work would have been around for both.
Currently, a 46 year for me which includes USN time. Maybe one more year left and possibly some consulting for my current company.
 
Migration from V4 to V5 is relatively straightforward and easy. It's one of the strong point for buying the two CAD suites from that vendor (Catia / Solidworks).
 
A clean-sheet F414 class design should probably wait until after the XA-101/102. Enhanced F414s with greater thrust have already been tested and would help the Super Hornet a lot, but the Navy doesn't want to pay for that.
It is worth noting the F414 engine has a very low bypass ratio (0.25) as a result of maintaining the same engine diameter as the F404. The F414 has poor fuel consumption.

You could take the F414 and try to improve fuel efficiency by fitting a larger diameter fan. Increasing the bypass ratio to (0.7) would now result in an engine nearly identical in size and performance to the F110. In other words the F414 is like a low bypass F110. The cores are very similar in size.

The F/A-XX with it's longer range would prefer the higher bypass F110 engines. The fuel saving during cruise would easy justify the heavier and larger engine.

A clean sheet F414 diameter engine wont haopen. It would need to have a high bypass fuel efficiency mode. This means at the F414 engine diameter it would have lower thrust and smaller core to allow for the increased bypass air. You can't increase thrust and increase bypass ratio without increasing the diameter.
 
  • Better yet, how big an airframe do you need to haul 4x AGM-158B/Cs to their launch point?
  • How big an airframe do you need to haul a minimum of 6x LRAAMs to a 250nmi BARCAP point and then to loiter there for a minimum of 5 hours?
  • How big an airframe do you need to do Jamming and SEAD/DEAD of a target area some 1500km from the carrier, call it 2x JSOW or SiAW plus 7000lbs of jamming gear? (possibly/probably a dedicated airframe for this one, but same relation to the main CCA as a Growler to Super Bug)
  • How big an airframe do you need to do CAS/carpet bombing with SDBs or 500lb JDAMs some 1500km away?
  • How big an airframe do you need to carry 4-6x 2000lb JDAMs 1500km away?
That's where we're at for airframe size.

I haven't seen a single proposal for the naval CCAs yet, aside from the X-47s.
The MQ-25 variant can do everything on this list. Not once did you mention they weapons had to be carried internally. All the weapons you mention have reasonable range and the MQ-25 being unmanned reduces the need for extreme low observables.

The slower speed and long straight wing of the MQ-25 allows it to have excennet range for it's size. Most of the missions listed do not need high speed.
 
MQ-25 being unmanned reduces the need for extreme low observables.

MQ-25 was based on a VLO design. MQ-25 as it is today is not VLO, but this has nothing to do with being unmanned. There are plenty of unmanned VLO aircraft out there, manned vs. unmanned has nothing to do with VLO.

The slower speed and long straight wing of the MQ-25 allows it to have excennet range for it's size. Most of the missions listed do not need high speed.

No, having a really high fuel fraction helps more with the range. If more than 60% of your mass is fuel you're going to do pretty well on range. There are operational military aircraft with fuel fractions much higher than that.

The Breguet Range Equation is the governing framework here. For jets it takes the form:

Code:
R = (V/TSFC) × (L/D) × ln(W₀/W₁)

Where V is cruise speed, TSFC is thrust-specific fuel consumption, L/D is lift-to-drag ratio, and ln(W₀/W₁) is the natural log of the weight ratio — which is directly driven by fuel fraction. That last term is why fuel fraction matters so much: range scales logarithmically with it, not linearly. A fuel fraction of 0.40 gives ln(1/0.60) ≈ 0.51; raising it to 0.70 gives ln(1/0.30) ≈ 1.20 — more than doubling the range contribution from that term alone.

The three levers pulling in the same direction are: low TSFC (high bypass ratio turbofan), high L/D (efficient aerodynamics at cruise), and high fuel fraction. Speed is a direct multiplier on range but kills L/D — faster means more wave drag, so the product V×(L/D) tends to peak at subsonic cruise conditions, which is why transports and long-range UAVs cruise in the M0.80–0.85 window rather than M1.5+. Unless there has been some advancement in transonic and supersonic drag reduction, or the aircraft is tailless.

Both bypass ratio and fuel fraction matter enormously but through different mechanisms. Bypass ratio reduces TSFC — a high-bypass turbofan (BPR ~10–12, e.g. CFM LEAP) has TSFC around 0.50–0.55 lb/lbf·hr versus a low-bypass afterburning fighter engine (BPR ~0.3, TSFC ~2.0+ in reheat). But TSFC sits outside the log term, so it scales range linearly. Fuel fraction sits inside the log, so its effect is also roughly linear for small fractions but amplifies as the fraction climbs. For a high-bypass transport with low TSFC, fuel fraction is the dominant variable at cruise. For a fighter using reheat, TSFC is so punishing that fuel fraction has to be heroic just to achieve modest range — which is why fighters have been typically range-limited.

Typical fighter fuel fractions run 0.25–0.35 on internal fuel. The F-16 is roughly 0.26, the F-15C around 0.27, the F/A-18C about 0.25. Clean internal fractions are constrained by the structural weight of a maneuvering airframe, large engines, and radar/avionics mass. Conformal tanks push these up modestly; the F-15E with CFTs reaches ~0.35. The F-22 is closer to 0.29 internally.

High-fraction UAVs achieve their numbers by doing the opposite: no pilot life support, no ejection seat, minimal avionics mass, no sustained g-load structure, and mission profiles that are pure loiter. The RQ-4 Global Hawk is ~0.55 internal, and some purpose-built HALE designs reach 0.70+. At 0.70 the log term becomes ln(1/0.30) = 1.204 — nearly 2.4× the contribution of a 0.27 fighter fraction (ln(1/0.73) = 0.315). That gap explains why a Global Hawk achieves 34+ hour endurance while an F-16 is calling the tanker in 90 minutes.

TL;DR; Range scales linearly with bypass ratio or fuel consumption, but scales LOGARITHMICALLY with fuel fraction. Aircraft with very high fuel fractions have been produced for many years now. It's a well understood, well solved set of problems.


Also, F/A-XX is still a strike fighter.
 
Last edited:
My mental model for FAXX was an 80klb mission TOW and roughly 92-96klb MTOW in beast mode. ~40klbs empty, ~12klbs internal payload, and 28klbs of internal fuel. Which makes for a fuel fraction of ~0.35. (And is the same total fuel carriage as an F-22 with external fuel tanks)
 
After 56 pages, i am reminded of a quote from 'Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy' (2011), the character Ricki Tarr says, "Everything the Circus thinks is gold is shit" ...

those who don't know are describing an elephant in the dark, those that do can't say
 
Last edited:
No, having a really high fuel fraction helps more with the range.
You start off with the word no. Does this mean flying slower and having a long straight wing doesn't help provide excellent range?

The slower speed and long straight wing of the MQ-25 allows it to have excennet range for it's size. Most of the missions listed do not need high speed.
Read what I wrote above. It is 100% correct. Your reply should have said: Yes, also fuel fraction is the third factor that helps provide excellent range.

It is quite crazy. I could say the sky is blue and you will reply saying I am incorrect and then proceed to post multiple paragraphs. If you have this much spare time maybe provide the documents that multiple members are waiting on.
 
Typical fighter fuel fractions run 0.25–0.35 on internal fuel.
The RQ-4 Global Hawk is ~0.55 internal, and some purpose-built HALE designs reach 0.70+.
That gap explains why a Global Hawk achieves 34+ hour endurance while an F-16 is calling the tanker in 90 minutes.
This is easily settled. Let's half fill the fuel tank of a Global Hawk so it takes off with a similar fuel fraction to a fighter jet. It can now fly 17+ hours instead of 34+ hours and 7,000 miles instead of 14,000 miles.

This is proof that slower speed and long straight wing allows Global Hawk to have excellent range for it's size. Your argument that fuel fraction is the biggest factor has been destroyed.
 
Navy fighters always have less flight hours than their land based cousins due to the carrier take off's and landings though now with the advent of EMALS and new arrester gear that should not be a problem with the Ford class aircraft carriers.
 
TL;DR; Range scales linearly with bypass ratio or fuel consumption, but scales LOGARITHMICALLY with fuel fraction
Not quite. When you model a typical fighter mission usually 30-40% of the fuel is « range less » ie. used for taxi, take-off, climb, combat and reserve. Which means every % improvement in TSFC gives you a double benefit, by not only reducing the rangeless fuel portion (leaving more fuel for cruise) but also by improving your cruise efficiency.

So it’s still a linear relationship, but better than 1:1, ie. a 1% improvement in TFSC leads to a more than 1% improvement in range (more like 1.6%).
 
Last edited:
A lot of work went into their NATF. There's no way lessons there wouldn't be looked at.
A distinctive Northrop design feature shared by both the F-23 and DP527/533 is the positioning of the air intakes. This results in relatively short air intake ducts that do not penetrate the entire fuselage (unlike F-22, J-20, etc.). Maybe this layout was considered for F/A-XX as well.
 
Migration from V4 to V5 is relatively straightforward and easy. It's one of the strong point for buying the two CAD suites from that vendor (Catia / Solidworks).
I use both. I wish they'd port some Solidworks features over to CATIA and vice versa. For the v4 stuff we had one dedicated, "don't touch it unless you're name is ------------" machine. I think everything is v5 now though. (Hell, there were things about Solidworks 2007 I wish they still had.)
 
Not quite. When you model a typical fighter mission usually 30-40% of the fuel is « range less » ie. used for taxi, take-off, climb, combat and reserve. Which means every % improvement in TSFC gives you a double benefit, by not only reducing the rangeless fuel portion (leaving more fuel for cruise) but also by improving your cruise efficiency.

So it’s still a linear relationship, but better than 1:1, ie. a 1% improvement in TFSC leads to a more than 1% improvement in range (more like 1.6%).

The range equation applies to cruise, i.e. when the aircraft is at altitude, not when ascending or landing. The values plugged into the equation should reflect that.

There is little doubt that the competing F/A-XX designs are supersonic and tailless, yet there isn't much discussion about how that might affect L/D. Weird.
 
What you suggested though is the USN would have approached NG and said, hey you know that design from 1990 that didn't get beyond concept phase lets dust that off and use it today...

No, rather he's saying that the USN's requirements won't be too terribly different from NATF's initial ones.

I'm not disputing whether the design had merit. What I am disputing is whether the USN had anyone around who remembered NATF and why they would start at that point.

I don't think the USN is qualified enough in general to make that kind of statement. I think they started more generally with the questions and asked "what do you have for a stealth plane like the F-35?" and NG would come back with a list of their concepts and last proposals. That would be F-23N and the NATF.

It isn't the USN's job to review old designs, it is their job to decide what they want and then issue Industry with the set of requirements. If those line up with the NATF-23 then happy days for NG.

The USN simply isn't clever enough to suggest something that F-23N wouldn't be applicable for.

In 1990, they needed to hide from Bill Board, Flap Screen, Grill Pan and High Screen...

In 2026, they need to hide from...Bill Board, Flap Screen, Grill Pan and High Screen...

It's obvious that they would look at past aircraft, because the threat has not evolved too substantially, at least in frequency and methods of detection. They're still using S-K band and that's still the primary threat, and this already existing top end threat has merely proliferated to third rate militaries like Iran, which was assumed in the 1990's but never happened. What has also happened is that the interim fighter (F/A-18E/F) is now running out of airframe life. The best time to plant the NATF tree was 30 years ago and the second best time is now.

It won't be the same aircraft, but in the same way that CALF's shape is visible in the Lockheed JSF, the NATF will be visible in F/A-XX. Unless there is some other serious driver, like the need for a third engine or desire to hide from a lower frequency search radar such as VHF-band, there's no reason to significantly deviate from the prior work as a starting point.
 
Last edited:
There is little doubt that the competing F/A-XX designs are supersonic and tailless, yet there isn't much discussion about how that might affect L/D. Weird.
Scott Kenny gave a list of missions that are best suited for a subsonic straight wing platform. E.g carrying four JASSM missiles a long distance and providing electronic jamming with large loiter time. I just wanted to point out the MQ-25 platform can do those jobs better than any potential supersonic or tailless aircraft at a fraction of the cost and weight.

There is little doubt the Navy would give these missions to other platforms. Yet the discussion continues on trying to magically create an F/A-XX to do these missions.
 
No, rather he's saying that the USN's requirements won't be too terribly different from NATF's initial ones.

So that means a navalised F-47 would be a perfect fit for the Navy.

NATF was a navalised ATF
ATF produced the F-22
F-47 is replacing the F-22
Navalised F-47 is then a modern NATF

The oversized standoff weapons get carried by drones. The US Navy could easily make a subsonic drone bigger than the MQ-25. Something the size of the A-3 skywarrior could carry 8 JASSM out to 1,000nm. No manned supersonic aircraft could come close to this. I think the MQ-25 being able to carry four JASSM would be sufficient.
 
The US Navy could easily make a subsonic drone bigger than the MQ-25. Something the size of the A-3 skywarrior could carry 8 JASSM out to 1,000nm.

Nothing about operating from a carrier is easy, and even less so for unmanned vehicles.
For X-47B Northrop had to put in an extraordinary amount of effort into RF shielding for… everything because it’s such a hostile environment. You stand on a carrier deck for 5 minutes and you’re going to have Funny Looking Kids.

Quellish limited his exposures to 4 minutes and still got Bart Simpson. Your mileage may vary.
 
So that means a navalised F-47 would be a perfect fit for the Navy.

NATF was a navalised ATF
ATF produced the F-22
F-47 is replacing the F-22
Navalised F-47 is then a modern NATF
Not happening. How many times do you need to be told before it penetrates to brain matter?
 
Last edited:
In 1990, they needed to hide from Bill Board, Flap Screen, Grill Pan and High Screen...

In 2026, they need to hide from...Bill Board, Flap Screen, Grill Pan and High Screen...

It's obvious that they would look at past aircraft, because the threat has not evolved too substantially, at least in frequency and methods of detection. They're still using S-K band and that's still the primary threat, and this already existing top end threat has merely proliferated to third rate militaries like Iran, which was assumed in the 1990's but never happened. What has also happened is that the interim fighter (F/A-18E/F) is now running out of airframe life. The best time to plant the NATF tree was 30 years ago and the second best time is now.
Unless there is some other serious driver, like the need for a third engine or desire to hide from a lower frequency search radar such as VHF-band, there's no reason to significantly deviate from the prior work as a starting point.
Yup.
Meanwhile the AF wants/needs a very long-legged vehicle with 'DC-to-daylight' signatures addressed. First order requirements driving the F/A-XX and F-47 designs differ significantly.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom