US FF(X) Program - DISCUSSION

Mallard said:
The idea that they were going to put them out faster than the shipyards that originally made the ships is rather ridiculous but I hardly think a delivery by 2030 was ridiculous when the new program won’t deliver a ship much sooner and one which is vastly less capable
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Might not provide the first one sooner, but can provide more faster.
 
Mallard said:
I still don’t see how Constellation was anywhere close to a destroyer
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You mean other than the fact it was nearly the same tonnage as a F1 Burke?
7300 tons for the constellation vs 8300 tons for a F1 burke

Beyond tonnage, because they more or less fill the same role as DDGs in fleets that can’t afford to build and man dozens of DDGs.
 
Mallard said:
I still don’t see how Constellation was anywhere close to a destroyer
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Constellation is a modern day Spruance / Kidd class.

Top notch ASW destroyer, better than anything the USN has ever had before. Plus a very good AAW platform with a modern radar as good as SPY-1D. Won't do BMD, but doesn't need to - that's what cruisers are for. Doesn't have the magazine depth of a DDG-51, but not every ship needs to. It's just about the perfect complement to offset the DDGs' weaknesses... much better ASW, more ASuW missiles, half the cost.

FF(X) by contrast is going to be pretty useless in wartime. Barely better than LCS, wouldn't even compare to an old FFG-7.
 
H_K said:
Constellation is a modern day Spruance / Kidd class.

Top notch ASW destroyer, better than anything the USN has ever had before. Plus a very good AAW platform with a modern radar as good as SPY-1D. Won't do BMD, but doesn't need to - that's what cruisers are for. Doesn't have the magazine depth of a DDG-51, but not every ship needs to. It's just about the perfect complement to offset the DDGs' weaknesses... much better ASW, more ASuW missiles, half the cost.

FF(X) by contrast is going to be pretty useless in wartime. Barely better than LCS, wouldn't even compare to an old FFG-7.
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No, Constellation is a modern day FFG7.
 
Kat Tsun said:
I don't think it was scrapped and there's no news articles about it anyway. It was just canceled because it wasn't economically viable for USCG to repair the hull after it got left out for a year in 2020-2021.
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May articles say scrapped, and its been over 6 years of sitting out. It’s either been scrapped as the articles indicate, or it’s sat out so long it’s rusted into uselessness.
 
H_K said:
It's a high end task force escort, ASW focused like Spruance, but also AAW capable like a Kidd.
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The minimum requirement has increased such that ffgx is now a modern ffg7 equivalent.

See the new euro frigates all of them are ffgx esque despite most of them not being designed to fight China and rather being designed for lower threats.
 
cccgong said:
The minimum requirement has increased such that ffgx is now a modern ffg7 equivalent.

See the new euro frigates all of them are ffgx esque despite most of them not being designed to fight China and rather being designed for lower threats.
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Nope. The FREMMs for one are most definitely designed for high-end threats, as they serve as the main ASW escort for a Carrier Strike Group. Top notch sonar, acoustics, defense against supersonic sea skimming missiles etc. Same goes for Type 26, F110 and other Eurofrigates with similar frontline ASW roles. Exactly like the Spruance class DDs back in the day.

Modern FFG-7 is more like a Meko A200 or Type 31... generalist escort for merchants, amphibs or ships in slightly lower threat areas.
 
H_K said:
Nope. The FREMMs for one are most definitely designed for high-end threats, as they serve as the main ASW escort for a Carrier Strike Group. Top notch sonar, acoustics, defense against supersonic sea skimming missiles etc.

Modern FFG-7 is more like a Meko A200 or Type 31.
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The FREMMs will have been commissioned for 17+ years by the time ffgx enters the water. So that’s absolutely not the right comparison.

The FREMMs were for threats that long ago. It was also never designed to for a modern Pacific war. It’s top end pacing threat would have been a severely degraded post Soviet Russia. With the normal threat being gunboat diplomacy or Iran.

So by Meko A200 you mean a 40+ year old design. By Type 31 you mean a design in which 3/3 variants are basically FFGX with some of them having better radars (4 vs 3 radar panels on FFGX).
 
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H_K said:
Nope. The FREMMs for one are most definitely designed for high-end threats, as they serve as the main ASW escort for a Carrier Strike Group. Top notch sonar, acoustics, defense against supersonic sea skimming missiles etc. Same goes for Type 26, F110 and other Eurofrigates with similar frontline ASW roles. Exactly like the Spruance class DDs back in the day.
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16 sams (FREMM average, without CIWS in French case) and close range corvette self defense suit(type 26) just screams top end threats.
I'll honestly not be too surprised if these in real conditions won't be able to reliably fend off TT launched missile salvo. Which is the lowest level threat v Russia.
cccgong said:
The FREMMs were for threats that long ago. It was also never designed to for a modern Pacific war. It’s top end pacing threat would have been a severely degraded post Soviet Russia. With the normal threat being gunboat diplomacy or Iran.
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Even post-Soviet Russia, when it is present, is not that low.
It's telling that average Eu frigate has substantially less aa armament than average Ru corvette. That doesn't mean they're insuitable - they are, just when covered and/or operated in backline. So is FFX.

Irony with Iran is you have too adjust to it. Ending up with normal frigate v IRGCN swarms is likely a very suboptimal experience. ASuW LCS or Type 31 look the way they do(and still require ABM cover v Iran) for a reason.
 
cccgong said:
So by Meko A200 you mean a 40+ year old design. By Type 31 you mean a design in which 3/3 variants are basically FFGX with some of them having better radars (4 vs 3 radar panels on FFGX).
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Ha? Meko 200 was a very different ship to the modern A200. Although i have to say technology is changing fast. Lasers and microwaves are going to need far more power generation than what has usually been built into recent ships. Demand is only going to increase, and the redundant generators and accessible pathways for high voltage power buses will hopefully become part of new designs. Probably not really something that gets designed into the FFX, but maybe pulsed lasers dont need as much power as i imagine.
 
Ainen said:
16 sams (FREMM average, without CIWS in French case) and close range corvette self defense suit(type 26) just screams top end threats.
I'll honestly not be too surprised if these in real conditions won't be able to reliably fend off TT launched missile salvo. Which is the lowest level threat v Russia.

Even post-Soviet Russia, when it is present, is not that low.
It's telling that average Eu frigate has substantially less aa armament than average Ru corvette. That doesn't mean they're insuitable - they are, just when covered and/or operated in backline. So is FFX.

Irony with Iran is you have too adjust to it. Ending up with normal frigate v IRGCN swarms is likely a very suboptimal experience. ASuW LCS or Type 31 look the way they do(and still require ABM cover v Iran) for a reason.
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If you're dancing with IRGC speedboats, the Weps should have horse-traded to "acquire" a couple extra Mk38s to mount. Or talked to a Marine or Army unit to acquire some RWS units with either .50cal or Mk19s.
 
Scott Kenny said:
If you're dancing with IRGC speedboats, the Weps should have horse-traded to "acquire" a couple extra Mk38s to mount. Or talked to a Marine or Army unit to acquire some RWS units with either .50cal or Mk19s.
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It's many things - IRGCN flotillas evolved a whole lot since Praying Mantis; while humans are in fact afraid of death, in every other sense they're far more dangerous form of what Ukraine does in Black sea.

For many years, IRGCN boat deliveries carry universal guided weaponry (anti-air/anti-surface), they're covered by dedicated air defense cutters(stand in) and corvettes(stand off).
If they're seriously going to go for a kill on a normal medium combatant armed just with RWS and native armament in congested gulf area, this is likely aufiderzein. Not enough? There's still ground effect component, and of course the huge IRGC rocket force.

Even something seriously powerful, like Burke formation, can find itself pushed into the corner and fighting for its life.

This is why countries actually dealing with Iran (US, UK, gulf neighbors) spent last two decades to adapt to the threat, and dedicated entire classes of ships to this specific threat. Outside of the region, maybe Italy seems to be reasonably prepared for these conditions, just because their lessons back from WW2 keep them on a right enough track.
Not a guarantee, but chances they'll do better the most.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
Might not provide the first one sooner, but can provide more faster.
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But with a fraction of the capability, in fact If argue FFX serves a completely different role than FFGX because it’s incapable of such, it can free Burkes up from mundane taskings but the US battle force is going to shrink.
 
cccgong said:
As I've said a few times, put in some basic effort at finding your own information..... It's literally the first naval news link. Either way you've now been ignored.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=WMSL-760+scrapped
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I did, not a single article popped up about the ship being scrapped.
Do you not understand that two people can google the exact same keywords and have very different search results? That’s how personalized algorithms work.
 
Mallard said:
But with a fraction of the capability, in fact If argue FFX serves a completely different role than FFGX because it’s incapable of such, it can free Burkes up from mundane taskings but the US battle force is going to shrink.
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Whatever you say
 
Mallard said:
Not any frigate that is in use, and seems rather difficult to put any frigate like equipment on it
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I never said in use frigate design.
They designed a whole family of ships, most of which were various frigate designs. The cutter was the least capable member of the family.
 
EmoBirb said:
Sorry to go off topic for a bit, is that supposed to mean "auf Wiedersehen"?
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Autocorrect sometimes does inexplicable magic:(
Btw, I wonder how difficult it is to come up with some self-contained naval-nasams.

As such system are growing more and more popular on land, and in some cases at sea as well.
 
Ainen said:
Btw, I wonder how difficult it is to come up with some self-contained naval-nasams.

As such system are growing more and more popular on land, and in some cases at sea as well.
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NASAMS requires a command module, or several, to coordinate sensors and launchers. It is a feasible system to add to not just a ship, but spread among multiple ships. On land these systems are spread out into wide areas and can handle coordination of redundant units.
 
MadRat said:
NASAMS requires a command module, or several, to coordinate sensors and launchers. It is a feasible system to add to not just a ship, but spread among multiple ships. On land these systems are spread out into wide areas and can handle coordination of redundant units.
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Sort of. Came to me since we remembered Iranian speedboats, and for quite a few years they have just this kind of "speedy TELs"
 
johnpjones1775 said:
I never said in use frigate design.
They designed a whole family of ships, most of which were various frigate designs. The cutter was the least capable member of the family.
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Yet they don’t seem to be building these readily available frigate derivatives.
 
Ainen said:
16 sams (FREMM average, without CIWS in French case) and close range corvette self defense suit(type 26) just screams top end threats.
I'll honestly not be too surprised if these in real conditions won't be able to reliably fend off TT launched missile salvo. Which is the lowest level threat v Russia.
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So you don't think Aster can intercept Kalibr, when it's taken down far more difficult targets in Ukraine?

Ainen said:
It's telling that average Eu frigate has substantially less aa armament than average Ru corvette.
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The average Russian corvette* has an AA armament of a quad launcher for Igla. The Karakurts are a bit better as they have an actual CIWS, either Pantsir-M with 57E6 or Hermes-K (which can't seem to decide if it's a SAM or a land-attack missile), or Palash with Sosna-R. The only Russian corvettes with a genuine area air defence system are the Stereguschiys, with 12 Redut cells for 9M96.

* Grisha, Nanuchka, Tarantul, Bora, Buyan, Buyan-M (okay, 2 quad launchers), Parchim
 
johnpjones1775 said:
That’s literally what they’re going to end up doing. Are you really this dense?
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At the current time, all that has been announced is that the first batch FF(X)s will be a Legend in a grey overcoat, while later batches will probably add a VLS. None of which says that they're going to build any of HII's previously proposed Legend-derivative PFs.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
That’s literally what they’re going to end up doing. Are you really this dense?
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No its not. They may be dusting off old plans for Legend derivatives, but so far nobody has suggested they might go back to some pre-Legend design that had a variant that eventually became the Legend class. If there was a useful earlier design, I would be suprised if it was any more than a fighty OPV with an extra gun or hellfires.
Mallard said:
And how can it protect the convoys exactly? Long range bombers, no defense against that. Submarines? Nope, got nothing there
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It can't. Even modified for a towed array its still pretty limited against any modern ASW threat. And lets face it, any convoy needing escort is valuable enough to be a serious target. But then it might protect convoys by being a more juicy target than the merchant ships. With a few drones tagging along maybe, but you don't have the types of drones that would be needed in any numbers. And any AAW drone would need a small VLS farm to field ESSM, and some line-of-sight systems like EW, CIWS or laser. Presumably those are all to be managed from the FF(X), so that will need a pretty substantial CIC, and deployed with sufficient redundancy for the drones to keep fighting after losing an FF(X).
johnpjones1775 said:
Have you ignored everything has been said on here?
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About taking over low threat regions that don't need combat ships? But then somebody said this thing was now going to escort convoys.

Its either a combat ship or its not. And if its a combat ship it needs a survivability standard worthy of its FF designation.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
What articles?
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Articles? No not really. They (journalists) don't get that in depth anymore.

cccgong said:
As I've said a few times, put in some basic effort at finding your own information..... It's literally the first naval news link. Either way you've now been ignored.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=WMSL-760+scrapped
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The USNI article is literally confusing a contract cancellation, which is a legal process, with scrapping, which is a physical process done to a hulk at Brownsville, TX. Is it really so hard to understand the confusion as to the present state of the physical hull of WMSL-760 and whether or not it will be finished in haze gray, USCGC white, or be sent to Texas for disassembly?

Generally speaking it takes a while to tow a hulk to Brownsville but I'm pretty sure Friedman was so incomplete it will need to be disassembled in situ. It may already have been or it may simply be sitting around for the past year waiting for a new contract while negotiations between HII and DHS happened.

It's entirely reasonable to think that DON has stepped in to buy an orphan, unfinished hull and funded a second ship. The long lead items would still be in place and construction could be resumed quickly, depending on the condition of Friedman's hull, which is unclear in press releases.

I suspect DON doesn't/didn't know the condition or status of Friedman when it signed on for FF(X) and is simply hoping it's workable.

cccgong said:
The FREMMs will have been commissioned for 17+ years by the time ffgx enters the water. So that’s absolutely not the right comparison.

The FREMMs were for threats that long ago. It was also never designed to for a modern Pacific war. It’s top end pacing threat would have been a severely degraded post Soviet Russia. With the normal threat being gunboat diplomacy or Iran.

So by Meko A200 you mean a 40+ year old design. By Type 31 you mean a design in which 3/3 variants are basically FFGX with some of them having better radars (4 vs 3 radar panels on FFGX).
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The top end threat of the PRC is comparable to a 40 year old sub design. It really hasn't changed much from Akulas and improved Akulas.

johnpjones1775 said:
Convoy escort.
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Convoys won't exist. Too high profile. There will be individual ships escorted into the blockade area by USN surface action groups after crossing into the grey zone near Japan. The FF(X) is to reduce virtual attrition on the Burke force so more Burkes can be moved from SOUTHCOM and AFRICOM into INDOPACCOM to do this.

The U.S. will likely rely on ghost fleet ships flying random national flags to avoid arousing suspicion of Chinese naval intelligence.

That's the closest to a convoy you will get.
 
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MadRat said:
Avenger, M-SHORAD, and Ukraine's Tempest have all tested Hellfire Longbow for air defense.
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Hellfire was pulled from Sgt Stout/M-SHORAD, it's not robust enough for extended deployment on a launch rail on a ground vehicle.
 
DWG said:
Hellfire was pulled from Sgt Stout/M-SHORAD, it's not robust enough for extended deployment on a launch rail on a ground vehicle.
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Hopefully they can integrate something like Coyote for the job instead. Helicopters firing BLOS against armor is a bit of a menace.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
Gonna need some actual citations for those claims.
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There are dozens of CSIS wargames and GAO documents online. There's no single unclass PR document that says "this is what FF(X) does and why" obviously.

It's something you just pick up reading about PLA capabilities and the necessary air defense requirements of the theater (mainly the expected quantity and speed of weapons plus reaction time), the obvious inability of FF(X) to meet this (even the Connies would've been low to medium threat range), and the combat experience of the USN over the past decade battling ISIS and the Houthis in particular.

FF(X) is geared towards long duration patrol in compliant environments similar to the Gulf of Mexico or Horn of Africa because it's an NSC. Give it a couple dozen ESSM and it can stand in at low threat areas like the Red Sea or Levant. Give it Tomahawks and it can effect strikes similar to what the USN has been doing for going on 30 years there.

DDG-51 Flight I/IIA is the closest thing to a modern day Perry. They can protect the UNREPs and random LNG tankers from incidental or single ASBM shots. The Flight IIs with SEWIP and Flight IIIs are the frontline battle force escorts that need to handle multiple supersonic weapon threats and ballistic missile waves while skirting the edges of the A2AD zones and opening corridors to Taiwan. The Zumwalts and SSNs will be able to live in the A2AD zone and make life annoying for the PLANAF airbases.

FF(X) will ease the virtual attrition of the USN needing to commit something like 2/3rds or so of its surface fleet to the major regional conflict that will be Taiwan initially. By the time it escalates to a larger global war, perhaps after someone throws nukes, the USN probably won't exist in the same form it did before. Neither will the PLAN.

The Houthis have already shown that future escort operations will be distributed and rely on islands of protection by zone defenses at least, perhaps that will be the operating model for Taiwan, since it kept Houthi ASBMs from hitting CONEX ships. In any case actual convoys are likely unnecessary due to merchant speeds, and if they were necessary, the minimum escort is an Aegis ship with SPY-1D anyway. We don't have enough of those to spare for random cruise missile flings, while fighting China, but maybe we can get enough available to fight China and still bomb an al-Baghdadi or Saddam Hussein if we buy a much less capable ship.
 
Kat Tsun said:
There are dozens of CSIS wargames and GAO documents online. There's no single unclass PR document that says "this is what FF(X) does and why" obviously.

It's something you just pick up reading about PLA capabilities and the necessary air defense requirements of the theater (mainly the expected quantity and speed of weapons plus reaction time), the obvious inability of FF(X) to meet this (even the Connies would've been low to medium threat range), and the combat experience of the USN over the past decade battling ISIS and the Houthis in particular.

FF(X) is geared towards long duration patrol in compliant environments similar to the Gulf of Mexico or Horn of Africa because it's an NSC. Give it a couple dozen ESSM and it can stand in at low threat areas like the Red Sea or Levant. Give it Tomahawks and it can effect strikes similar to what the USN has been doing for going on 30 years there.

DDG-51 Flight I/IIA is the closest thing to a modern day Perry. They can protect the UNREPs and random LNG tankers from incidental or single ASBM shots. The Flight IIs with SEWIP and Flight IIIs are the frontline battle force escorts that need to handle multiple supersonic weapon threats and ballistic missile waves while skirting the edges of the A2AD zones and opening corridors to Taiwan. The Zumwalts and SSNs will be able to live in the A2AD zone and make life annoying for the PLANAF airbases.

FF(X) will ease the virtual attrition of the USN needing to commit something like 2/3rds or so of its surface fleet to the major regional conflict that will be Taiwan initially. By the time it escalates to a larger global war, perhaps after someone throws nukes, the USN probably won't exist in the same form it did before. Neither will the PLAN.

The Houthis have already shown that future escort operations will be distributed and rely on islands of protection by zone defenses at least, perhaps that will be the operating model for Taiwan, since it kept Houthi ASBMs from hitting CONEX ships. In any case actual convoys are likely unnecessary due to merchant speeds, and if they were necessary, the minimum escort is an Aegis ship with SPY-1D anyway. We don't have enough of those to spare for random cruise missile flings, while fighting China, but maybe we can get enough available to fight China and still bomb an al-Baghdadi or Saddam Hussein if we buy a much less capable ship.
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How are there dozens of documents and wargames including a ship class that was just announced a month ago, and hasn’t even had its final design released?
 
johnpjones1775 said:
Doesn’t matter how long it’s been around as a government funded project. They’ve existed since 2018
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They're trying to get a boat in the water in the next 24-30 months my guy. That means an unmodified NSC for the first few hulls. HII is going to be running those poor dockhands ragged in the heat already.

Nobody knows what the next hulls will look like but there are lots of ideas. Expect the least effort, and lowest cost, to prevail. Which means favoritism for existing weapons, ordnance and their mounts, like the 57mms and the Harpoon. It depends on what will be funded but FF(X) could end up being anywhere from 12 to 50+ ships right now.
 
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