I'm surprised that the Army is responsible for the GBI interceptors. I had thought those were also Air Force operated. Seems odd to designate them as Army systems.



I recently discovered some interesting cost and procurement figures for the Mk21A/W87-1 and the new AF&F for the W87 and W87-1. The procurement figures for these have some very troubling implications.

For the new Mk21A RV to be used on the Mk21A/W87-1, currently only 457 RVs (31 development, 426 production) are being purchased.

The actual costs per RV are roughly $14.4 million. Procurement costs account for $5.7 million. RDT&E accounts for the other $8.7 million.

For the new AF&F (fuze) to be used on both the Mk21/W87 and the Mk21A/W87-1, currently only 743 fuzes (88 development, 655 production) are to be purchased.

The actual costs per AF&F (fuze) are roughly $3.5 million.

Total historical production for the Mk21/W87 is either 525 or 560 warheads. I suspect the higher number is probably slightly more likely to be correct, although the lower number remains plausible. So let's assume 560 were built.

Currently, 200 Mk21/W87 warheads are deployed on Minuteman III missiles.

The exact number of remaining Mk21/W87 warheads held in reserve is unknown. One source in 2020 estimated that 340 additional warheads may be held in reserve. A certain number of warheads are destroyed during testing over time, so the reserve number should be lower than the original procurement number. 340 suggests only 20 were lost to destructive testing, which is a bit lower than I would have expected, but not entirely implausible.

So this implies the total pool of Mk21/W87 warheads is probably no more than 540 warheads in total.

With only 655 production fuzes being procured, and with 426 of them going to production W87-1 warheads, that implies only 229 fuzes will be left over for the W87 warheads.

This suggests that they do not intend to modernize the fuzes in the majority of the W87 warheads, which will result in most of the current W87 arsenal being rendered unreliable and unsuitable for future use.

It's unclear what the plan is regarding the transition between MM III and Sentinel with respect to ICBM fuze replacements and warhead swaps. One burning question is if they intend to replace the fuzes in the W87 warheads currently in use on the MM III missiles, or if they intend to only replace the fuzes in W87 warheads from the reserve force destined for use on the initial Sentinel missiles, or something else entirely.

It is clear that the W87-1 procurement will be very small, only just barely enough warheads to equip every one of the 400 Sentinel missiles with a single W87-1 warhead, with just 26 extra warheads beyond that.

This is concerning, especially when you consider that only 229 W87 warheads with new fuzes will be available for upload use.

Combined with the 26 extra W87-1 warheads, that makes for up to 255 warheads that could potentially be used for upload (although in reality, you cannot use 100% of the warheads in inventory, as a certain margin must be held in reserve to allow for maintenance and destructive testing activities).

That is an extremely limited upload capacity!

If we have 400 active missiles in the 450 hot silos, we could deploy only a maximum of 655 warheads across those 400 missiles, or an average of 1.6375 warheads per missile. Realistically, the maximum upload capacity would be lower than this due to the aforementioned issues.

If we are to retain the ability to credibly re-MIRV the Sentinel in the future (meaning at least a full 2:1 MIRV across the entire force at the baseline 400 missile deployment force level), then Congress must either:
  • Increase the size of the order for W87/W87-1 fuzes (which MUST be done before production ends, otherwise they would have to start a new order at a MUCH higher cost) in order to allow life extending more of the W87 arsenal. This could eventually offer up to 340 additional warheads, enough to do 2:1 MIRV across the entire Sentinel fleet.
  • Increase the size of the order for Mk21A RVs (which MUST be done before production ends, otherwise they would have to start a new order at a MUCH higher cost) and increase the number of W87-1 warheads manufactured (which would take a while do given the extremely slow pace of pit production, the repeated delays in scaling up pit production, the repeated delays in bringing the secondary pit production facility online, and the current backlog of around 425 pits). This could offer an unlimited number of additional warheads, but it would take much longer to produce them.
  • Do both of the previous two steps (the ideal option).
  • Have the Sentinel adapted to be able to carry the W78 and have the W78 go through another life extension program. Given the safety issues with the W78, the fact that it's unlikely Sentinel is already capable of carrying the W78, the fact that another W78 LEP would not be a cheap or fast process, and the Air Force's repeatedly stated strong desire to phase out use of the W78, this would not be a cheap option, nor would it be a very wise decision from a long term perspective, and the Air Force would likely strongly oppose any attempt to go through with this option.
I don't see any indications that any of these options are being pursued, which is very concerning. Are we unilaterally disarming ourselves with Sentinel?

Edit: There is a chance that the Mk21A/W87-1 AF&F order will be procured separately from the Mk21/W87-0 order. It is possible that the current contract is intended solely for the Mk21/W87-0.

Interestingly, earlier versions of this contract had a slightly higher number of fuzes set to be procured, and were seemingly intended to be procured solely for use on the Mk21/W87-0. Later versions mostly refer to it as the Mk21/W87 instead of using the W87-0 designation, and have a slightly lower number of fuzes to be procured, which creates ambiguity regarding if the contract is meant to cover the new Mk21A/W87-1 warheads, or if they will be splitting the order for fuzes for those new warheads into an entirely separate contract (which would be hideously inefficient from a cost perspective, but is possible).

The absurdly convoluted history of the W78-1 LEP // IW1 // W78/88-1 LEP // W87-1 program makes this hard to track and even harder to analyze.

Either way, at minimum there is still a lack of clarity on the exact scope of the W87-0 refurbishments, and it's also very clear that the total procurement of W87-1 is much lower than many of us would have expected.

The total procurement numbers for the W87-1 are actually so low that I am questioning if they are intentionally planning on keeping Sentinel as a mixed force of W87-1 and W87-0 in the long term in order to mitigate risks from having only a single type of warhead deployed and offer a more diverse range of yield options, similar to how the current force is a mixture of the W87 and the W78, or how it was previously a mixture of the W78 and the W62.

I'm doubtful that 426 warheads would actually be enough to deploy one warhead on every missile and keep them operating for the next 40 years, as this number is likely not enough to allow for attrition due to destructive testing over the course of 40 years while still keeping a sufficient number of warheads in reserve to allow for routine maintenance activities (as well as a sufficient reserve buffer for a eventual LEP).

So it looks like the intention is likely to operate the Sentinel with a mixed force of W87-1 and W87-0 in the long term, as that's the only way to ensure there's enough of a buffer available for destructive testing, maintenance, and LEPs.

It's either that or they are anticipating a force reduction below 400 deployed missiles, and the later no longer seems plausible in today's world.
 
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I'm surprised that the Army is responsible for the GBI interceptors. I had thought those were also Air Force operated. Seems odd to designate them as Army systems.

The Army operated hundreds of Nike Ajax & Hercules SAM sites, plus Safeguard; ground-based missile air defence has always been an Army task.
 
Give GBAD to the Army, Golden Dome to the Space Force and strategic bombardment to the Air Force (ICBM + bomber). The Navy has its own three services lolololol
 
The USAF would NOT be amused with such a suggestion.

Then they should have maintained them. They failed to maintain space infrastructure and lost that. ICBMs are an artillery weapon.

Give GBAD to the Army, Golden Dome to the Space Force and strategic bombardment to the Air Force (ICBM + bomber). The Navy has its own three services lolololol

Space should be Space Force. Land should be Army. Sea should be Navy. Air should be Air Force. The USAF only needs to concern itself with aerial operations. Surface to surface bombardment and air defense are conventionally the army's jobs. They have enough on their plate trying to keep the F-35A and B-1 operational.

The poor handling of ICBM and Space Surveillance forces shows why they are poor stewards of CONAD beyond the Fighter-Interceptor and airborne radar operating elements. The other solution, of course, is an American Strategic Rocket Force. Perhaps DA could grow a baby branch, like the Marines and Space Force in DON and DAF, and keep it around as a little pet.
 
The US Army had plenty of experience with IRBMs, in fact it was the inter-service rivalry between Jupiter and Thor that led to the USAF being given monopoly on missiles over 200 miles.

There was no real reason except the AF argued that I[RC]BMs were equivalent to bombers, which made little logical sense but at the time the Army was struggling to find a purpose and to assert itself politically.
 
The US Army had plenty of experience with IRBMs, in fact it was the inter-service rivalry between Jupiter and Thor that led to the USAF being given monopoly on missiles over 200 miles.

There was no real reason except the AF argued that I[RC]BMs were equivalent to bombers, which made little logical sense but at the time the Army was struggling to find a purpose and to assert itself politically.
Still not seeing how experience with a couple dozen IRBMs 60 years ago (which the USAF also had) translates to more being suited than the organization who operated over a thousand ICBMs for half a century. It's f--king stupid. I know, let's put the USAF in charge of all armored vehicles because reasons.
 

Troubled Sentinel ICBM Program Still Being Restructured Nearly Two Years After Cost Breach​


Hope this is wrong.

The stated plan is for each Sentinel to carry a single W87-1 nuclear warhead inside a Mk 21A re-entry vehicle, but that loading may change in the future, as you can read more about here.
 
Reading the Minuteman missile history, starting roughly 65 years ago, cannot help but sadden a person.

This was the first time we had ever done anything like this yet proceeded on a pace that is stunning to read about.

Might be a dumb idea but I’d be tempted to hand out contracts to some of these newer contractors to build an ICBM just to see what they could come up with. I mean we had a system called ICBM-X perfect spin off subsidiary of SpaceX. Given the infrastructure SpaceX has built add a silo contract into the mix, he’s got the Boring Company.

To think this is where we are today, while I watch numerous countries deploy new system after new system, many mobile, is truly disheartening.
 
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Still not seeing how experience with a couple dozen IRBMs 60 years ago (which the USAF also had) translates to more being suited than the organization who operated over a thousand ICBMs for half a century.

The USAF doesn't know how to operate ICBMs though. I think LGM-35A's budget issues show that well enough.

It's f--king stupid. I know, let's put the USAF in charge of all armored vehicles because reasons.

The Abrams and Bradley fleets are well maintained. Unlike some infrastructure. If a branch can't maintain something, they shouldn't have it though, which is why the Army should probably surrender their landing craft to the Navy.
 
The USAF doesn't know how to operate ICBMs though. I think LGM-35A's budget issues show that well enough.
And the dwindling infrastructure that contributed to liek 40% of all the problems on this program.

Honestly? You don't give an old man with dementia a high power rifle with an fun switch. The USAF is *not* there yet, but should their horrid handling issues persist I could see headlines like "USAF fighting Army for control over ICBM force" propping up in a Congress projected script, not a second rate news aggregrator...
 
Still not seeing how experience with a couple dozen IRBMs 60 years ago (which the USAF also had) translates to more being suited than the organization who operated over a thousand ICBMs for half a century. It's f--king stupid. I know, let's put the USAF in charge of all armored vehicles because reasons.

The only reason that the USAF got control of ICBMs and the Army was limited to 200 miles was due to Le May's forceful character, not because it made operational or logistical sense. He wanted the nukes.

Funnily enough the USAF didn't make a claim for SLBMs, yet they still fitted into SIOP.
 
And the dwindling infrastructure that contributed to liek 40% of all the problems on this program.

Honestly? You don't give an old man with dementia a high power rifle with an fun switch. The USAF is *not* there yet, but should their horrid handling issues persist I could see headlines like "USAF fighting Army for control over ICBM force" propping up in a Congress projected script, not a second rate news aggregrator...

Army ICBMs.
Navy SLBMs.
USAF B-2/-21.

Target location and detection by USSF.

Seems the most natural fit for each domain.

Will never happen but we can dream that one day ICBMs' readiness and maintenance schedules are taken as seriously as the B-52s' own.
 
Very much a MIRV guy, the idea of only loading a single warhead in these times is silly.

Wrong. With the proliferation of boost phase interceptors this century, maximizing target buses on orbit is the only way to win. MIRVs are not practical in a world with working Brilliant Pebble or SBL.
 
Wrong. With the proliferation of boost phase interceptors this century, maximizing target buses on orbit is the only way to win. MIRVs are not practical in a world with working Brilliant Pebble or SBL.
There'll still be the same number of launchers either way though (400). US's adversaries don't have Brilliant Pebbles or SBL and there's no indication of progression towards it.
 
There'll still be the same number of launchers either way though (400). US's adversaries don't have Brilliant Pebbles or SBL and there's no indication of progression towards it.

Yeah we need to build like 1200 SICBM rather than another 400 Minutemen. That's probably what will replace Sentinel when it's killed in favor of another MM3 SLEP.
 
In the distant future, ballistic missiles will eventually be rendered obsolete by advancing missile defense systems. Giving the lifespan of MM3, it's entirely conceivable that we arrive at that point during the service life of Sentinel. Striking strategic targets will increasingly rely on maneuverable, hypersonic, or orbital vehicles, all of which require substantially more weight and energy then ballistic weapons. Ultimately, I think throw weight is going to be what determines the service life of a new ICBM. A missile like Peacekeeper should be the absolute minimum in terms of size for a silo-based missile.

I think the most effective way to deploy an SICBM like Midgetman would be in camouflaged 53 foot trailers driving around the country. Decoys would cost next to nothing and the tractor-TEL combination probably wouldn't even weigh more than 40 tons. However, an SICBM wouldn't have the energy to deploy anything more than a ballistic payload over intercontinental ranges. If decoys or HGVs are necessary, it won't provide anything more than IRBM or maybe even MRBM ranges.
 
In the distant future, ballistic missiles will eventually be rendered obsolete by advancing missile defense systems. Giving the lifespan of MM3, it's entirely conceivable that we arrive at that point during the service life of Sentinel. Striking strategic targets will increasingly rely on maneuverable, hypersonic, or orbital vehicles, all of which require substantially more weight and energy then ballistic weapons. Ultimately, I think throw weight is going to be what determines the service life of a new ICBM. A missile like Peacekeeper should be the absolute minimum in terms of size for a silo-based missile.

I think the most effective way to deploy an SICBM like Midgetman would be in camouflaged 53 foot trailers driving around the country. Decoys would cost next to nothing and the tractor-TEL combination probably wouldn't even weigh more than 40 tons. However, an SICBM wouldn't have the energy to deploy anything more than a ballistic payload over intercontinental ranges. If decoys or HGVs are necessary, it won't provide anything more than IRBM or maybe even MRBM ranges.
And SAMs will make aircraft obsolete. Just ask Britain.
 
I think the most effective way to deploy an SICBM like Midgetman would be in camouflaged 53 foot trailers driving around the country. Decoys would cost next to nothing and the tractor-TEL combination probably wouldn't even weigh more than 40 tons. However, an SICBM wouldn't have the energy to deploy anything more than a ballistic payload over intercontinental ranges. If decoys or HGVs are necessary, it won't provide anything more than IRBM or maybe even MRBM ranges.
A SICBM sized missile may not be able to throw a HGV intercontinental distances (>5500 km) but it shouldn’t be far off. CPS/LRHW is a 2 stage 34.5” missile and has a range of at least 3500 km. SICBM was a three stage, 40” diameter missile throwing a Mk-21 RV nearly 11,000 km, it should be able to throw an CHGB-equivalent glide body significantly longer than CPS range.
 

Troubled Sentinel ICBM Program Still Being Restructured Nearly Two Years After Cost Breach​


Hope this is wrong.
The initial loadout has always been for single warheads, Mk21 in the first missiles, Mk21A in the later missiles.

By the time deployment actually happens, this will likely get changed to MIRVed deployments, but I would expect to see this happen only after the existing MM III force gets re-MIRVed (which should happen within the next few years or less if events continue evolving at the speed that they have within the last few years).

Reading the Minuteman missile history, starting roughly 65 years ago, cannot help but sadden a person.

This was the first time we had ever done anything like this yet proceeded on a pace that is stunning to read about.

Might be a dumb idea but I’d be tempted to hand out contracts to some of these newer contractors to build an ICBM just to see what they could come up with. I mean we had a system called ICBM-X perfect spin off subsidiary of SpaceX. Given the infrastructure SpaceX has built add a silo contract into the mix, he’s got the Boring Company.

To think this is where we are today, while I watch numerous countries deploy new system after new system, many mobile, is truly disheartening.
I don't trust Musk anywhere near any US nuclear program. Lockmart & co is at least trustworthy and reliable, if expensive.

Very much a MIRV guy, the idea of only loading a single warhead in these times is silly.
It may be silly, but we still have 400 of them (and 450 silos), so it's less silly than it would seem. The MM III has always had serious range penalties at full payloads, so it wouldn't be too shocking to see only limited re-MIRVing happen.

Wrong. With the proliferation of boost phase interceptors this century, maximizing target buses on orbit is the only way to win. MIRVs are not practical in a world with working Brilliant Pebble or SBL.
Good luck achieving boost phase intercept on a MM III or Sentinel. You'd need to fire your interceptors from Canadian soil, or maybe from a submarine. Not anywhere near credible, sorry!

Yeah we need to build like 1200 SICBM rather than another 400 Minutemen. That's probably what will replace Sentinel when it's killed in favor of another MM3 SLEP.
The SICBM was a political missile design with all the flaws implied by that origin, and was never a serious design worthy of being deployed at volume.

The operating costs alone would be cripplingly expensive. Capabilities would be extremely limited, capital costs would be absurd, you'd have little to no MIRV/countermeasures capabilities, and the security situation would be an utter nightmare. Its quite literally the worst possible missile program for America, and it should have been strangled to death in its cradle before it got as far as it did.

In the distant future, ballistic missiles will eventually be rendered obsolete by advancing missile defense systems. Giving the lifespan of MM3, it's entirely conceivable that we arrive at that point during the service life of Sentinel. Striking strategic targets will increasingly rely on maneuverable, hypersonic, or orbital vehicles, all of which require substantially more weight and energy then ballistic weapons. Ultimately, I think throw weight is going to be what determines the service life of a new ICBM. A missile like Peacekeeper should be the absolute minimum in terms of size for a silo-based missile.

I think the most effective way to deploy an SICBM like Midgetman would be in camouflaged 53 foot trailers driving around the country. Decoys would cost next to nothing and the tractor-TEL combination probably wouldn't even weigh more than 40 tons. However, an SICBM wouldn't have the energy to deploy anything more than a ballistic payload over intercontinental ranges. If decoys or HGVs are necessary, it won't provide anything more than IRBM or maybe even MRBM ranges.
That seems highly unlikely. Midcourse missile defense is an obscenely difficult and expensive endeavor, even with limitless funding. X Band radars alone are stupidly expensive to construct, so much so that the US apparently cannot afford to build them for fixed missile defense sites. And even with a perfect missile defense system, you can always overwhelm it by simply building more ICBMs and packing them with more MIRVs.

Replace one 500 kt warhead with 3+ 100 kt warheads, bam, now you've tripled the number of interceptors needed.

There were plans to cram as many as seven (7) MIRV warheads onto the MM III for use against missile defense systems. Imagine a salvo of 400 missiles unleashing 2800 warheads.

You can cram up to 12 MIRV warheads onto the current Trident II D5 missile. A salvo of 240 missiles can unleash 2880 warheads.

If needed, we could build even more powerful systems. At one point, there were plans to cram up to 30+ small warheads onto the Titan II/III for counter-ABM purposes. You could plausibly have designed an alternate Peacekeeper mod with similarly ridiculous warhead loadings if you shrunk down the booster stages a bit (or simply deepened the missile silos).

Building too large of a missile is actually a very bad idea. Peacekeeper was a total nightmare to maintain because of how large it was. If your missile is small enough to be transported assembled like the MM III or Sentinel, it becomes much easier to maintain. Peacekeeper had to be transported in a bunch of separate segments, and each segment weighed so much that it required a lot of expensive work to reenforce roads and bridges in the deployment region to allow moving it around. Then it takes 10x longer to emplace the missiles in the silo or remove them from the silo, since you have to assemble/dismantle each stage in situ from a bunch of separate pieces, each requiring their own separate transporters and heavy lifts.

Additional special measures were required during PK/MX design to accommodate cramming so much missile into the existing MM III silos, such as the use of ENECs in stages 2 & 3, the use of detonable propellant on stage 3, and the complete removal of penaids (there simply wasn't enough vertical space left in the silos to include them!).

It was also hideously expensive, far more so than the Minuteman or Sentinel. We spent around $243 million per Peacekeeper missile. The Sentinel missiles are projected at under $100 million each.

I still think the MX/PK was a great missile, but I disagree that it's a good design to start out with. It's a poor fit to our modern needs for nuclear deterrence, and it's unlikely that we'll need something of that scale for a long time, if ever. A Sentinel-scale missile in larger numbers carrying full yield W87-1 warheads and some sort of mid-high accuracy INS is simply a much better fit for our modern arsenals and threats.

A SICBM sized missile may not be able to throw a HGV intercontinental distances (>5500 km) but it shouldn’t be far off. CPS/LRHW is a 2 stage 34.5” missile and has a range of at least 3500 km. SICBM was a three stage, 40” diameter missile throwing a Mk-21 RV nearly 11,000 km, it should be able to throw an CHGB-equivalent glide body significantly longer than CPS range.
The SICBM barely had enough throw weight to toss a Mk21 with penaids to intercontinental ranges. Typical modern HGVs like the Avangard weigh a whole hell of a lot more than any old-school MIRV/MARV ever did, and are also a hell of a lot bulkier than any old-school MIRV/MARV. You'd never be able to use the SICBM with HGVs as anything other than an embarrassingly short ranged missile. Maybe you could squeeze SRBM or MRBM ranges out of it, if even that. Not exactly very useful.

I suppose I could run the numbers on it if someone has detailed stage weights and performance figures for the SICBM handy. I haven't bothered attempting to collect them yet. Not sure if enough detail is available in the public domain to attempt a calculation or not. I might look at that later. I think thrust figures and stage dry weights might be the major sticking points, and while I think I found some of the figures I needed at one point, I can't recall if I ever managed to find all of the performance parameters I needed or not.
 
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Good luck achieving boost phase intercept on a MM III or Sentinel. You'd need to fire your interceptors from Canadian soil, or maybe from a submarine. Not anywhere near credible, sorry!
Try shooting them down from orbit instead of up from the ground, works a lot better.



The SICBM barely had enough throw weight to toss a Mk21 with penaids to intercontinental ranges. Typical modern HGVs like the Avangard weigh a whole hell of a lot more than any old-school MIRV/MARV ever did, and are also a hell of a lot bulkier than any old-school MIRV/MARV. You'd never be able to use the SICBM with HGVs as anything other than an embarrassingly short ranged missile. Maybe you could squeeze SRBM or MRBM ranges out of it, if even that. Not exactly very useful.
Yes, that is the problem exactly for HGVs.

They're heavy.

Avangard is on the order of 2000kg, while a 1MT warhead runs about 500kg or so.

HGVs are also bulky. It would take some serious packaging work to get 6x HGVs onto Trident 2, and I suspect that 4x HGVs would be more likely as an option. The simple Biconic HGVs are almost as long as Polaris missiles, so cannot fit at all into Trident tubes. You'd have to use winged HGVs, and they'd need to be less than 3m long. Maybe under 2.5m, there's not much space under the hood of a Trident!
 
They're heavy.

Avangard is on the order of 2000kg, while a 1MT warhead runs about 500kg or so.

HGVs are also bulky. It would take some serious packaging work to get 6x HGVs onto Trident 2, and I suspect that 4x HGVs would be more likely as an option. The simple Biconic HGVs are almost as long as Polaris missiles, so cannot fit at all into Trident tubes. You'd have to use winged HGVs, and they'd need to be less than 3m long. Maybe under 2.5m, there's not much space under the hood of a Trident!

A good reason to keep Minuteman sized missiles around is that they can fling HGVs like the SWERVE. Sentinel probably ain't this one.

Single warheads with 1-3 penaids are still optimal for trans-orbital RVs though. Which is what Midgetman did.
 
All practical boost phase are on orbit interceptors lol.
Try shooting them down from orbit instead of up from the ground, works a lot better.

A very basic space based boost phase intercept system capable of handling solid fuel threats would require roughly 2000 space-based interceptors to intercept a single missile, and would cost in the neighborhood of $1 trillion dollars (USD 2010).

To size the same system to handle the US's MM III arsenal (400 missiles) would require roughly 800,000 space-based interceptors, and would cost in the neighborhood of $400 trillion dollars (USD 2010).

Anybody peddling space based boost phase intercept solutions is either ignorant of basic economic concepts, ignorant of basic concepts of orbital mechanics, or both.

This doesn't even touch the huge geopolitical issues involved with trying to base even a single interceptor in space, the exquisite vulnerability of space based interceptors to conventional attack by other nations, or any of countless other issues with the concept.

Yes, that is the problem exactly for HGVs.

They're heavy.

Avangard is on the order of 2000kg, while a 1MT warhead runs about 500kg or so.

HGVs are also bulky. It would take some serious packaging work to get 6x HGVs onto Trident 2, and I suspect that 4x HGVs would be more likely as an option. The simple Biconic HGVs are almost as long as Polaris missiles, so cannot fit at all into Trident tubes. You'd have to use winged HGVs, and they'd need to be less than 3m long. Maybe under 2.5m, there's not much space under the hood of a Trident!

You'd need to delete the third stage entirely to have any hope of cramming a HGV onto the Trident II D5's PBV. Even then, there's not a ton of vertical room available. And without a third stage, you'd lose out sharply on the range and throw weight budgets. Not exactly a formula for success.
 
If you were using Trident from a land base, does it need to remain limited in length?
 
A very basic space based boost phase intercept system capable of handling solid fuel threats would require roughly 2000 space-based interceptors to intercept a single missile, and would cost in the neighborhood of $1 trillion dollars (USD 2010).
Your data is seriously off with SDI-era calculations.
 
Your data is seriously off with SDI-era calculations.
My data is from the 2012 publication Making Sense of Ballistic Missile Defense: An Assessment of Concepts and Systems for U.S. Boost-Phase Missile Defense in Comparison to Other Alternatives, which was published by The National Academies Press, one of the most prestigious and reputable sources on the subject. This also happens to be a publication with a classified version that was used to make national security decisions. If you have a more recent publication from a more reputable source that has also been used to make national security decisions, by all means, please give me the citation – I'd love to read it.

The figures in this publication agree well with many other sources that I have reviewed from earlier and later eras.

The tyranny of orbital mechanics means that there is fundamentally very little room for debate here. You need hundreds or thousands of orbital interceptors in order to perform the same role as a single ground based interceptor. And if you want to handle a fleet of ICBMs being launched in one big surge from a single geographic region (as in any classical attack scenario from any major or minor nuclear power), then that multiplies the requirements globally, as you cannot wait for interceptors to orbit into range, you need all of the interceptors to be present immediately.

Edit: The original link somehow ended up with the wrong DOI, this has now been corrected.
 
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Probably not, though you would need custom silos/containers with the longer working length.
Not sure I believe it's such a problem on land, where a silo or road mobile launcher could be much longer than the silos in a SSBN.
 
My data is from the 2012 publication Making Sense of Ballistic Missile Defense: An Assessment of Concepts and Systems for U.S. Boost-Phase Missile Defense in Comparison to Other Alternatives, which was published by The National Academies Press, one of the most prestigious and reputable sources on the subject.
Erm, your link seems to be a bit wrong:

1769779681766.png

Here is the correct one, by the way.

The tyranny of orbital mechanics means that there is fundamentally very little room for debate here. You need hundreds or thousands of orbital interceptors in order to perform the same role as a single ground based interceptor. And if you want to handle a fleet of ICBMs being launched in one big surge from a single geographic region (as in any classical attack scenario from any major or minor nuclear power), then that multiplies the requirements globally, as you cannot wait for interceptors to orbit into range, you need all of the interceptors to be present immediately.
First of all, what exactly kind of interceptor we use? A low delta-V orbital mine, like Brillian Pebbles, or high delta-v space based missile, like Golden Dome?
 
A very basic space based boost phase intercept system capable of handling solid fuel threats would require roughly
Don't know where the figure of $1tr comes from but $175bn is already allocated to Golden Dome.

You'd need to delete the third stage entirely to have any hope of cramming a HGV onto the Trident II D5's PBV. Even then, there's not a ton of vertical room available. And without a third stage, you'd lose out sharply on the range and throw weight budgets. Not exactly a formula for success.
Doesn't all this depend on the size and nature of the HGV, things like AMARV, PGRV and HPMARV are satisfactory gliding alternatives and no bigger than W87/88s. Don't confuse nuclear MaRVs with conventional ones, where more weight is necessary for impact.
1769781379840.png
View: https://x.com/masao_dahlgren/status/1199866012679589891?s=20
 
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Erm, your link seems to be a bit wrong:

View attachment 800444

Here is the correct one, by the way.


First of all, what exactly kind of interceptor we use? A low delta-V orbital mine, like Brillian Pebbles, or high delta-v space based missile, like Golden Dome?
I'm not sure how I managed to mangle the link like that, but I've fixed the URL, it links to the correct DOI now. Correct DOI: https://doi.org/10.17226/13189

The interceptor is the same high delta v space based missile concept that has been explored for the past 30+ years.

Brilliant Pebbles is not a boost phase intercept system, so it should have been clear that I wasn't talking about Brilliant Pebbles given that I repeatedly restated that this was about boost phase intercept.

I'm not super familiar with what is being explored in Golden Dome. They keep on throwing shit at the wall and the whole system is unlikely to make it to production, so I don't see much value in closely following golden dome developments given that the concepts being discussed seem to change every week, there isn't any clear indication of what's being seriously considered and what isn't, and there's pretty much no chance anything more than some token fraction of the plans being made will ever make it through to production deployment.

If they want to blow money on missile defense, IMO the best way to do that would be to spend it on some X-Band LRDR batteries. At least those would be unambiguously useful for GMD. But they're not a sufficiently big flashy trendy vague hyped-up option, so they'll probably never get funding before this administration becomes a lame duck and golden dome dies the ignominious death it deserves.

Don't know where the figure of $1tr comes from but $175bn is already allocated to Golden Dome.
It's from the report I cited...

I can't find any sources supporting your claim that $175 billion has already been allocated? The only money actually allocated so far for the golden dome program appears to be $24.4 billion for FY25 (virtually none of which appears to have actually been spent yet), and a further $13 billion for FY26.

$37.4 billion could buy a couple of X Band LRDR batteries... That'd be a far better use of funds than whatever they'll ultimately end up wasting spending it on. Realistically it'd be better to plow that money into something more useful than missile defense – plenty of better options out there – but if you insist on spending it on missile defense, that money could have solved the whole funding crisis that caused the LRDR batteries to get downgraded to S band radars on the first place.

Doesn't all this depend on the size and nature of the HGV, things like AMARV, PGRV and HPMARV are satisfactory gliding alternatives and no bigger than W87/88s. Don't confuse nuclear MaRVs with conventional ones, where more weight is necessary for impact.
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Classical MARVs and modern HGVs seem to have significantly divergent capabilities.

Modern HGVs seem to be aimed at long range boost glide range extension, which incidentally makes them harder to intercept via traditional methods. This results in very large and heavy HGVs.

Classical MARVs were largely aimed at evading missile defenses during the terminal descent phase through the use of limited maneuvering. There was no significant amount of range extension going on. Designs were basically just a traditional aeroshell with modifications to incorporate an INS and some method of maneuvering. This made them longer and heavier, but nowhere near the same amount/extent as a modern HGV.

At 81.85", AMARV is far too long to fit under the Trident II D5's shroud. You cannot field it aboard this missile.

At 109", HPMARV is also far too long to fit under the Trident II D5's shroud. You cannot field it aboard this missile.

At 100", SWERVE is similarly far too long to fit under the Trident II D5's shroud. You cannot field it aboard this missile.

I can't find any information on the dimensions of the PGRV. Are you aware of any?

There were MARV models that could be deployed on the Trident, but they would generally have had to use the physics package from a Mk4/W76 RB, and were more primitive less elegant MARV designs than the ones you've referenced so far. The Mk500 Evader is probably the most well known of these.

If you significantly scaled down a AMARV, you might be able to cram it onto the D5's annulus, but I'm not sure if a sufficiently scaled down AMARV would have enough space/weight/volume budget remaining for any sort of a decent yield (my guess is that it probably wouldn't).

(Heck, I'm not sure that the original AMARV had any real space/weight/volume budget available for a decent yield to begin with to be honest. And if it was already sized around a W76-scale physics package, then there's likely no margin remaining to scale it down any further in size. Even if it was originally sized around a W62/W78-scale physics package, it's quite likely that rescaling it down to use a W68/W76-scale physics package wouldn't shrink it by enough on its own to be able to fit it under the D5's shroud.)
 
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A very basic space based boost phase intercept system capable of handling solid fuel threats would require roughly 2000 space-based interceptors to intercept a single missile, and would cost in the neighborhood of $1 trillion dollars (USD 2010).

This is simply wrong, even by the original BP/GPALS cost estimates, lol. It's immensely disingenuous to count the sensors and C3I when we're talking about killers. Mostly because the sensors and C3I will be purchased anyway, because they're useful for things besides BMD, like space combat and air surveillance. Like what? Do you think nobody is going to replace SBIRS and WGS lol?

There are 9,000 Starlinks in orbit. It cost about $10-15 billion for SpaceX and another of the same for the ground hardware.

A Starlink satellite costs about $1-2 million.

We can estimate a Brilliant Pebble based on something existing like SM-3's LEAP (i.e. the original SDI killer) would be like $2-3 million maybe using modern manufacturing methods. Turning a 150 kg Wi-Fi bus into a 150 kg rocket interceptor wouldn't cost that much, even if it's doubled or tripled in price individually, and even if it's the cost of the whole SM-3 rocket (~$9 million), it still won't exceed more than "an aircraft carrier" while delivering something more important than any carrier.

Maybe they can cancel a Trump-class BBG(X) or two to fund it.

Space defense is cheap because space is being militarized regardless. It's not "$1 trillion". It's "$970-990 billion ± $30-10 billion".

That's why people are seriously talking about on orbit BPI and not missile ships or laser planes sitting off the coast of North Korea or Russia.
 
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That's why people are seriously talking about on orbit BPI and not missile ships or laser planes sitting off the coast of North Korea or Russia.
Well, space-based lasers would actually be a terrific weapon against missiles. No pesky atmosphere between you and target; ultra-complex equations reduced to simple laws of optic. Mirror size is the only range limit - and even it could be easily circumvented by "bouncing" beams from secondary mirrors close to target (imagine a big "beamcarrier" satellite with laser generator on high orbit, and dozen or more of small "reflector" sattelites with mirrors only on low orbit).
 
Well, space-based lasers would actually be a terrific weapon against missiles. No pesky atmosphere between you and target; ultra-complex equations reduced to simple laws of optic. Mirror size is the only range limit - and even it could be easily circumvented by "bouncing" beams from secondary mirrors close to target (imagine a big "beamcarrier" satellite with laser generator on high orbit, and dozen or more of small "reflector" sattelites with mirrors only on low orbit).

SBLs are a bit too heavy. A well designed Brilliant Pebble could theoretically descend into stratosphere to hit aircraft but that's a bit far off too. Would be fantastic for an orbital AEW system though. For something simply meant to swat ICBMs, in conjunction with terminal and midcourse ABM, a simple LEAP derived BP (or a new system using COTS technology) is fine.

The Brilliant Pebble can probably be made cheap with a mass limit of 100 kg or so. That's still less than a Starlink.
 

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