US FF(X) Program

I fail to see what the use of NSM would be on these ships. Everything Chinese out ranges it and they have no AD so wouldn’t be out there alone engaging Chinese ships. In a task force they’d be shooting off longer ranged weapons so NSM wouldn’t contribute.

Hellfire is even more useless for the reasons stated above, magazine size shouldn't even be a consideration here. As if you have to fire off any of your weapons, you're almost certainly in huge trouble and won't be getting out unhurt.

I’m not sure gun instability is too big an issue with smart munitions as it’s shoot look instead of continuous shots.
 
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cccgong said:
I fail to see what the use of NSM would be on these ships. Everything Chinese out ranges it and they have no AD so wouldn’t be out there alone engaging Chinese ships. In a task force they’d be shooting off longer ranged weapons so NSM wouldn’t contribute.

Hellfire is even more useless for the reasons stated above, magazine size shouldn't even be a consideration here. As if you have to fire off any of your weapons, you're almost certainly in huge trouble and won't be getting out unhurt.

I’m not sure gun instability is too big an issue with smart munitions as it’s shoot look instead of continuous shots.
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NSM - universal strike weapon for peacetime threat profile and wartime rearline duties(interdiction, light ground strike). You can mention to a running oil tanker that it's run may soon stop - even if it's already beyond your reach. Or you can point your ASCM battery even at an wastly superior enemy combatant in range; yes, that won't happen during wartime. Who cares. Or - at some el Presidente's presidential palace.

Realistically should've had a Shahedski(LUCAS) option instead, but good idea fairy hasn't reacted that far just yet.

Hellfires - drones/cheap munitions and gulf area (Iran hasn't went anywhere...just yet). Just check Black sea - should Russian 22160 class OPVs have them - Black sea would've been more or less closed off for Ukrainian activity. Instead it's the opposite.
 
DWG said:
I was making the point that it doesn't, that as a C-UAS system RAM substantially outperforms Hellfire. And so, arguably, does the Mk110, especially with 3P, ORKA or Mad-Fires.


Do you really think you need 65 missile shots and 30 4 round bursts*, with another 250 in reserve?

* I presume you're doing shoot-look-shoot with smart ammo, rather than just draining the magazine as fast as possible.


If you're firing sustained bursts from a Mk 110 with smart ammo then you're doing it wrong.
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We’ve seen several dozen drones and missiles launched at city blocks in Ukraine.
Some smart rounds and missiles will fail.

Again, even if you have only 21 RAM and 15 drones attack, you fire half a dozen rounds from mk110, and 12 missiles, you’re half empty on your RAM launcher. Another similar attack, you’re running out of missiles before the attack is over. Still plenty of 57mm rounds, but you don’t want to be relying only on mk110 and mk38s while you head back to port to reload.
 
MadRat said:
While that article made Independence class in a better light for range, the aluminum frame and gun instability sounds even more discouraging. I wonder if the syructure was not sturdy enough to give the gun stability. Would have liked to see a steel version. It does make the overall hull design look more promising, which is why I think it could scale up well. Its not the first warship layout to start its initial proof of concept as a corvette model.
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What gun instability? One ship had one issue with its gun one time.
The mk110 is in use in several other navies and no issues with its accuracy have ever been reported afaik.
 
cccgong said:
I fail to see what the use of NSM would be on these ships. Everything Chinese out ranges it and they have no AD so wouldn’t be out there alone engaging Chinese ships. In a task force they’d be shooting off longer ranged weapons so NSM wouldn’t contribute.

Hellfire is even more useless for the reasons stated above, magazine size shouldn't even be a consideration here. As if you have to fire off any of your weapons, you're almost certainly in huge trouble and won't be getting out unhurt.

I’m not sure gun instability is too big an issue with smart munitions as it’s shoot look instead of continuous shots.
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Well shit why fight at all? Why not just abandon ship and open scuttles the second a hostile ship is detected?

wtf actually is the first part of your post?

As for NSM, I’ve made my view on missile ranges known several times and will not reiterate it here.
 
Ainen said:
NSM - universal strike weapon for peacetime threat profile and wartime rearline duties(interdiction, light ground strike). You can mention to a running oil tanker that it's run may soon stop - even if it's already beyond your reach. Or you can point your ASCM battery even at an wastly superior enemy combatant in range; yes, that won't happen during wartime. Who cares. Or - at some el Presidente's presidential palace.

Realistically should've had a Shahedski(LUCAS) option instead, but good idea fairy hasn't reacted that far just yet.

Hellfires - drones/cheap munitions and gulf area (Iran hasn't went anywhere...just yet). Just check Black sea - should Russian 22160 class OPVs have them - Black sea would've been more or less closed off for Ukrainian activity. Instead it's the opposite.
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The idea that hostile ships won’t find themselves within 200 miles of each other fairly regularly during a major naval war just seems silly to me.

But let’s say the Chinese ships launch their ASMs and fleet AA shoots them down, enemy ships chose to fire from just outside ASM range, say 210miles. Well now you sprint in to close the gap and you launch your missiles.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
Well shit why fight at all? Why not just abandon ship and open scuttles the second a hostile ship is detected?

wtf actually is the first part of your post?

As for NSM, I’ve made my view on missile ranges known several times and will not reiterate it here.
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Because this ship has no viable self defense against missiles, CIWS is basically damage control. You are guaranteeing severe damage to the NSC if it ever closes to a range to fire the NSM against enemy warships. If it's part of a task force, the other ships will have longer ranged missiles, and use those instead of closing to NSM range. So the NSC won't get to fire in that scenario either.

You think long range missiles are pointless and everything should be launch within a few dozen miles of your enemy, which should invalidate any of your stances.
johnpjones1775 said:
The idea that hostile ships won’t find themselves within 200 miles of each other fairly regularly during a major naval war just seems silly to me.

But let’s say the Chinese ships launch their ASMs and fleet AA shoots them down, enemy ships chose to fire from just outside ASM range, say 210miles. Well now you sprint in to close the gap and you launch your missiles.
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There's enough satellites to ensure that ships will never get closer than they want to each other, apart from the opening hours of the war. They Chinese missiles also comfortably outrange NSM, so your scenario would never occur. If the NSC tried that the Chinese should would just sail in the opposite direction.
Ainen said:
NSM - universal strike weapon for peacetime threat profile and wartime rearline duties(interdiction, light ground strike). You can mention to a running oil tanker that it's run may soon stop - even if it's already beyond your reach. Or you can point your ASCM battery even at an wastly superior enemy combatant in range; yes, that won't happen during wartime. Who cares. Or - at some el Presidente's presidential palace.

Realistically should've had a Shahedski(LUCAS) option instead, but good idea fairy hasn't reacted that far just yet.

Hellfires - drones/cheap munitions and gulf area (Iran hasn't went anywhere...just yet). Just check Black sea - should Russian 22160 class OPVs have them - Black sea would've been more or less closed off for Ukrainian activity. Instead it's the opposite.
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Fair point on the trade interdiction far away from combat zones. However I'd make the case that trade interdiction should occur on land at the port (on the non-Chinese side) or right outside of the port instead of in the open ocean. As any reasonable sized bulk/oil carrier can only load/unload in a limited number of ports.

I would say the Russian's OPV have a sensor/situational awareness and 76mm ammo problem vs the Ukrainians, not a lack of a hellfire missile equivalent. Their 76mm if it had the proper ammo would more nor less negate the need for a hellfire type weapon.
 
cccgong said:
Because this ship has no viable self defense against missiles, CIWS is basically damage control. You are guaranteeing severe damage to the NSC if it ever closes to a range to fire the NSM against enemy warships. If it's part of a task force, the other ships will have longer ranged missiles, and use those instead of closing to NSM range. So the NSC won't get to fire in that scenario either.

You think long range missiles are pointless and everything should be launch within a few dozen miles of your enemy, which should invalidate any of your stances.

There's enough satellites to ensure that ships will never get closer than they want to each other, apart from the opening hours of the war. They Chinese missiles also comfortably outrange NSM, so your scenario would never occur. If the NSC tried that the Chinese should would just sail in the opposite direction.

Fair point on the trade interdiction far away from combat zones. However I'd make the case that trade interdiction should occur on land at the port (on the non-Chinese side) or right outside of the port instead of in the open ocean. As any reasonable sized bulk/oil carrier can only load/unload in a limited number of ports.

I would say the Russian's OPV have a sensor/situational awareness and 76mm ammo problem vs the Ukrainians, not a lack of a hellfire missile equivalent. Their 76mm if it had the proper ammo would more nor less negate the need for a hellfire type weapon.
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Chances are the opening hours of a modern naval war will be the most decisive period of the war…
 
johnpjones1775 said:
Chances are the opening hours of a modern naval war will be the most decisive period of the war…
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The Chinese will largely get to decide what range they want to be at for that engagement (out of NSM range), as they dictate when the shooting starts.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
Again, even if you have only 21 RAM and 15 drones attack, you fire half a dozen rounds from mk110, and 12 missiles, you’re half empty on your RAM launcher. Another similar attack, you’re running out of missiles before the attack is over. Still plenty of 57mm rounds, but you don’t want to be relying only on mk110 and mk38s while you head back to port to reload.
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RAM is reloadable as well. Only VLS aren't.
cccgong said:
I would say the Russian's OPV have a sensor/situational awareness and 76mm ammo problem vs the Ukrainians, not a lack of a hellfire missile equivalent. Their 76mm if it had the proper ammo would more nor less negate the need for a hellfire type weapon.
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US Hellfire deployment at sea comes from a rather similar problem - i.e. Iranian MSV swarms.
Good high ROF gun is a good start, but it's ultimately a single channel with limited arc of fire and effective range. Hellfires arer AA/ASuW bubble.
 
cccgong said:
The Chinese will largely get to decide what range they want to be at for that engagement (out of NSM range), as they dictate when the shooting starts.
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That’s a big assumption, especially considering the unhinged moron currently in charge of the US military today.
 
Ainen said:
RAM is reloadable as well. Only VLS aren't.

US Hellfire deployment at sea comes from a rather similar problem - i.e. Iranian MSV swarms.
Good high ROF gun is a good start, but it's ultimately a single channel with limited arc of fire and effective range. Hellfires arer AA/ASuW bubble.
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They might be, but in what sea state and what weather conditions? Does the ship have reloads in the magazines? How long does it take to reload?
 
johnpjones1775 said:
What gun instability? One ship had one issue with its gun one time.
The mk110 is in use in several other navies and no issues with its accuracy have ever been reported afaik.
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Where did ypu get the idea mk110 had a problem only one time? It could consistently hit so they gave it ALaMO rounds. 57mm use caused problems from the shock of the guns. And every 400th or so round jams.

 
MadRat said:
Where did ypu get the idea mk110 had a problem only one time? It could consistently hit so they gave it ALaMO rounds. 57mm use caused problems from the shock of the guns. And every 400th or so round jams.

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I’m not going through all that so if you want to tell me which specific header the information you’re trying share with me is I’ll happy like at that section specifically
 
johnpjones1775 said:
I mean the standard for destroyers is also not to let their fuel levels drop below 60% if possible…
So Indy has a range of 6k miles.
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Hi,
Yes about 6000nm @ 14kts, but only about 4300nm @ 18kts, and presumably less @ 20kts as compared to the notional 5000nm for the FFG-7 @ 18kts or 4200nm @ 20kts for the FFG-7 noted previously.
 
cccgong said:
I fail to see what the use of NSM would be on these ships. Everything Chinese out ranges it and they have no AD so wouldn’t be out there alone engaging Chinese ships. In a task force they’d be shooting off longer ranged weapons so NSM wouldn’t contribute.

Hellfire is even more useless for the reasons stated above, magazine size shouldn't even be a consideration here. As if you have to fire off any of your weapons, you're almost certainly in huge trouble and won't be getting out unhurt.

I’m not sure gun instability is too big an issue with smart munitions as it’s shoot look instead of continuous shots.
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These should not be anywhere near Chinese ships.

As in, not in the same ocean.
 
PFJN said:
Hi,
Yes about 6000nm @ 14kts, but only about 4300nm @ 18kts, and presumably less @ 20kts as compared to the notional 5000nm for the FFG-7 @ 18kts or 4200nm @ 20kts for the FFG-7 noted previously.
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And? The things that require long range don’t typically require you to do 20knots.

But in the end with oilers being all over the place range on a single tank is pretty irrelevant.

No one judges cars based on their range because 99% of the time there’s a gas station no more than 4 blocks away from you.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
And? The things that require long range don’t typically require you to do 20knots.

But in the end with oilers being all over the place range on a single tank is pretty irrelevant.

No one judges cars based on their range because 99% of the time there’s a gas station no more than 4 blocks away from you.
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Yes they do. If you want to escort convoys you should be doing 18-20kt with modern convoy ships to reduce transit times and to make things harder on subs.

But wait these work won't as convoy escorts.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
You do know people get on the internet with phones that don’t have a control button right?

Also nice deflection.
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Use the three little dots and use find in page.
cccgong said:
Yes they do. If you want to escort convoys you should be doing 18-20kt with modern convoy ships to reduce transit times and to make things harder on subs.

But wait these work won't as convoy escorts.
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Well at 18-20 knots you limit the ability of submarines to use some of their best tools and they have to use more experience and judgment to single out surface targets. But something tells me they hold the upper hand. Older subs would have problems with pursuit but can still obviously ambush.
 
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lastdingo said:
I think we can safely ignore Australian arms purchase prices.
There's *something* wrong with their procurement, their per-copy prices for major platforms are ridiculous and on the level of what the Saudis pay.
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Australia uses full life of the program costings.
 
Chris Miller, Executive Director at Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA), told attendees at the recent SNA conference re. NSC" it has been proven, it is operationally in use today, and it will evolve" // “This ship [FF(X) is done being designed,” NAVSEA’s Miller said yesterday. “We are going to go through a very, very, very – like, on one hand – number of engineering changes to get it to be what we want.”

You could make exactly make the same comments re. the IT FREMM five years ago,the very reason FREMM was chosen. As said previously If they had followed the same policy with the IT FREMM/ FFG(X) Constellation it would have been in the water fitting out for delivery by this year end .

The obvious conclusion is all the hierarchy of NAVSEA should be immediately fired including Chris Miller as the FF(X) will have zero ASW capabilities and very minimal AAW capabilities, not even ESSM, after wasting the 5 years and $billions turning the IT FREMM into a mini-Burke with near Level III survivability and making it 1,000 ton overweight in the process with less than 15% compatibility to the original IT FREMM design and calling into question the final design of the Constellation seaworthiness and not prioritizing its ASW role and now replacing it with the FF(X) which will be 3rd or 4th rate frigate/OPC, also with only minimal Level 1 survivability.

If the Navy had wanted an ASW frigate they should have gone back to original Fincantieri design for Constellation and thrown out all the NAVSEA changes, but it would destroy all credability in the Admirals. An ASW frigate is not cheap due to the need for quieting the hull and propulsion system which are expensive and must be designed in, the current proposal to fit a sonar container in future sometime on the fantail of the FF(X) comes across as a joke, they tried it on the LCS and the CNO admitted due to the ships being too noisy to effectively operate the Variable Depth Sonar (VDS) system to be able to detect new gen Chinese SSKs.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
So you don’t want warships doing war things?
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It's still war things.
Just Tacoma class instead of Cleveland class. Two very different tiers.
Arguably US needs both, but hole at Lo tier is larger, as intended Lo(LCS) somehow turned into Abdiel class.

In WW2 terms and analogies.
 
MadRat said:
Use the three little dots and use find in page.

Well at 18-20 knots you limit the ability of submarines to use some of their best tools and they have to use more experience and judgment to single out surface targets. But something tells me they hold the upper hand. Older subs would have problems with pursuit but can still obviously ambush.
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So I’m just going to assume there’s nothing there since you refuse to just state which heading it’s under.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
So I’m just going to assume there’s nothing there since you refuse to just state which heading it’s under.
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You are trying to avoid the answer. The failures are acrossthe program under multiple events. It is not that long of report to read. You obviously don't want facts from the Navy with all the citations one could want to verify. Stop posting about needing specific headers when it is just trolling at this point.
 
johnpjones1775 said:
And? The things that require long range don’t typically require you to do 20knots.

But in the end with oilers being all over the place range on a single tank is pretty irrelevant.

No one judges cars based on their range because 99% of the time there’s a gas station no more than 4 blocks away from you.
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Hi,

I believe that USN escorts have traditionally been estimated at 20kts because the USN had spent alot of effort developing their amphibious vessels to travel at 20kts, and wanted their escorts to be able to effectively escort them. As such, if the higher end transit ranges for an escort is lower than 20kts, then the entire group may have to transit at a lowerr speed.

In addition as previously noted I believe that the US Coast Guard's Deepwater Program System Performance Specification had requirements based partly on the desire to escort 20kt merchant ships (though I can't find a specific reference to it at this time, but I will keep looking for it).

As for range being irrelevant for a ship like the LCS I disagree. I worked for one of the design teams during the design phase of those ships and meeting the range requirements was an issue for the design, and we ended up developing a revised endurance calculation method to account for the reduced resistance associated with the decrease in displacement that would occur as fuel was burned, as opposed to the method used for more conventional displacement ships previously.

[And for the car analogy, that may not be such a good example, as I understand it, range anxiety can be of great concern for people with electric cars, where the ability to charge may not necessarily be just around the corner.]
 
One question that may arise: with the current administration's behavior towards allies, like threatening to invade them, one wonders where the US will get to base its ships and aircraft were there to be a war with China.
 
What does the helicopter arrangements on FF(X) look like? Afaik Legend doesn't have for example torpedo magazines nor operate Seahawks (can it? not super familiar with them). Could pose a bit of a barrier to them being useful...
 
1635yankee said:
One question that may arise: with the current administration's behavior towards allies, like threatening to invade them, one wonders where the US will get to base its ships and aircraft were there to be a war with China.
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Versus China? Japan, Hawaii, Guam, maybe Diego Garcia for B-2s/B-21s.

Maybe the other American territories in the Pacific, whatever islands the US kept after WW2.


EWPT2 said:
What does the helicopter arrangements on FF(X) look like? Afaik Legend doesn't have for example torpedo magazines nor operate Seahawks (can it? not super familiar with them). Could pose a bit of a barrier to them being useful...
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Coast Guard flies Seahawks.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Versus China? Japan, Hawaii, Guam, maybe Diego Garcia for B-2s/B-21s.

Maybe the other American territories in the Pacific, whatever islands the US kept after WW2.



Coast Guard flies Seahawks.
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ah, showing my ignorance there then apologies. Must have been crossing a wire.
 
1635yankee said:
One question that may arise: with the current administration's behavior towards allies, like threatening to invade them, one wonders where the US will get to base its ships and aircraft were there to be a war with China.
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Japan doesn't seem likely to abandon America over the Greenland thing. There is also Guam.
 

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