BBG(X) - US Next Generation Battleship

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View: https://x.com/__CJohnston__/status/2011204905424368088?s=20

Looks like a 12-cell CPS launcher.

View attachment 798458

SECNAV: Shipbuilders Need to Hire 250,000 Workers Over the Next Decade for ‘Golden Fleet’​

President Donald Trump announced plans for the battleship last month at Mar-a-Lago, USNI News previously reported. The Trump-class ships will field the 128 MK-41 vertical launch system cells, AN/SPY-6 air search radar, 12 Conventional Prompt Strike long-range hypersonic missiles, an electromagnetic railgun and multiple five-inch guns.
 
Has anyone seen any additional images of the collateral damage from the Japanese EM rail gun tests against the target ship? The images I saw only showed the initial hull penetration and I would assume a hollow-point type damage effect internal to the ship. Also, land-based testing shows the EM projectile penetrating various materials at various thicknesses but I saw no what should have been widespread, massive kinetic energy release or effects. I am not sure if an EM rail gun is going to be an effective Naval weapon and also since the US has halted development with the GA and BAE development units, comments please or am I missing something? I think the lasers for a BBG(X) can be very effective weapons providing the ship can generate the required power and have decent power cycle re-gen times.
 
I suspect the railgun is mostly for BMD. If HVPs work at 2.5 kps, you might get similar performance to a PAC-3. The battleship looks like it is designed to fight at 2,000 NM with CPS and defend itself against ballistic missiles and hypersonic weapons at the range. The ASEV is sticking with Mk. 41 for SM-3 and GPI, so the BBG(X) doesn't gain anything in terms of BMD with a larger VLS given the US-Japanese cooperation on BMD.
 
Has anyone seen any additional images of the collateral damage from the Japanese EM rail gun tests against the target ship? The images I saw only showed the initial hull penetration and I would assume a hollow-point type damage effect internal to the ship. Also, land-based testing shows the EM projectile penetrating various materials at various thicknesses but I saw no what should have been widespread, massive kinetic energy release or effects. I am not sure if an EM rail gun is going to be an effective Naval weapon and also since the US has halted development with the GA and BAE development units, comments please or am I missing something? I think the lasers for a BBG(X) can be very effective weapons providing the ship can generate the required power and have decent power cycle re-gen times.
I think they shoot simple solid type of rods to keep the loading simple, the barrel short, and the energy requirement low. So these shots are unlikely for anti-tank but more for range and probably fragmentation/incendary.
 
I think they shoot simple solid type of rods to keep the loading simple, the barrel short, and the energy requirement low. So these shots are unlikely for anti-tank but more for range and probably fragmentation/incendary.
Thanks for the reply. I know the goal for EM rail guns is to create massive kinetic energy destruction, I just don't think this will be the case for naval use. I know the Textron Systems Hornet Anti-Armor Kinetic Kill weapon uses a Beryllium, explosive shaped projectile which does penetrate the top if the turret and then basically obliterates everything internally but at a very close range (in feet).
 
Ton of wasted space there. And good luck finding 250,000 shipbuilders with the complete dogshit job the Dept of "Edukashun" has done over the last 20 years.
 
this thread has become an incredibly understandable sharing of strong preferences; here are mine:

- BBG(X) should be designed to be upgradable
- BBG(X) should be survivable not only in the sense of plating and spacing, but highly redundant systems which means being able to fight the ship from multiple locations.
- no matter how shitty and expensive BBG(X) becomes, the US should build at least 20, provided the above. The US overweights sunk cost logic for platforms that start poorly but can be upgraded to value-relevance… can you imagine if the US has 500 Raptors, double digit Seawolves AND Zummies, 40-60 B-2s, has anyone said anything recently about the value of an extra flattop to throw around (just asking)?

That could be useful. Right?
 
Ton of wasted space there. And good luck finding 250,000 shipbuilders with the complete dogshit job the Dept of "Edukashun" has done over the last 20 years.
Six moths ago I could not speel Eingonear, now I are one. They also would not award me my Bachelor's degree because I was married.
 
Ton of wasted space there. And good luck finding 250,000 shipbuilders with the complete dogshit job the Dept of "Edukashun" has done over the last 20 years.
Yes, that is going to suck. Really suck.

That said, IIRC Pascagoula is going to have nothing to do soon, which will help with building the BBGs.



I wonder why so much empty space up front.
Crew has to live somewhere.

And they may have a very large magazine for the 5" guns taking up that space if they're planning on firing 5" HVPs at incoming missiles.

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How do you turn a webp into an actually useful format on Linux? I wanted to bring the specifications image over here.

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Anyways, the missile battery is looking like 12x3 CPS plus SLCM-Ns for some reason and 128x Mk41 cells. IMO they could stick 40x PVLS cells on the port&starboard sides of the helo pad.

The gun battery is interesting. Railgun, 2x 5", possibly 2x 600kw and 4x 300kw lasers per the article text, either 2x 300kw OR 2x 600kw per the image.

Then we get to the "anti torpedo boat" stuff: 2x RAM, 4x 30mm (I assume Mk38Mod4s), 4x ODIN laser dazzlers, and "2x Counter UxS Systems" that I am reading as HPMW emitters.
 
What we missing is any kind of mention of the sonar systems (bow and/or towed array) and torpedo launcher (Mk32 SVTT or the replacement ATT / Mk58 Compact Rapid Attack Weapon (CRAW)) ).
 
I wonder why so much empty space up front.
I don't think that this model or the renderings we've seen are accurate representations of whatever design there might be, at whatever stage it might be. Others have pointed out fundamental design flaws, such as putting laser directors where they'd have limited coverage and an aft helideck too close to the waterline. If this is somewhat accurate, I'd guess a lot more VLSs.
 
Relevant:

Navy chief calls for defense spending to hit ‘new normal’ of 4% GDP​

 
And they may have a very large magazine for the 5" guns taking up that space if they're planning on firing 5" HVPs at incoming missiles.

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Anyways, the missile battery is looking like 12x3 CPS plus SLCM-Ns for some reason and 128x Mk41 cells. IMO they could stick 40x PVLS cells on the port&starboard sides of the helo pad.

The gun battery is interesting. Railgun, 2x 5", possibly 2x 600kw and 4x 300kw lasers per the article text, either 2x 300kw OR 2x 600kw per the image.

Then we get to the "anti torpedo boat" stuff: 2x RAM, 4x 30mm (I assume Mk38Mod4s), 4x ODIN laser dazzlers, and "2x Counter UxS Systems" that I am reading as HPMW emitters.
Considering useful railguns don't exist yet and may never exist. The Japanese one fire unguided APFSDS without sufficient space for explosives and guidance, not to mention the rail erosion issue. I hope they don't design those in.

It's a somewhat similar story to the megawatt fiber laser as they are no where near ready.

Gun based 30mm airburst or 5 inch gun (with airburst) would be a better antidrone system than any HPMW and is already installed.
 
Relevant:

Navy chief calls for defense spending to hit ‘new normal’ of 4% GDP​

Should be five since that's what we're demanding of other NATO members.
 
650-850 crew what are they going to be doing on the ship. That's more than the QE class carrier.
Well, a Burke has a crew of ~500 325, and it's going to take most of 150 people to cover the Flag CIC, Flag staff, and the extra people to care and feed for them.



Then there's the non-existent 32 MJ railgun as the program was canceled.
IIRC it was in need of new power supplies, faster cycling ones.



Considering useful railguns don't exist yet and may never exist. The Japanese one fire unguided APFSDS without sufficient space for explosives and guidance, not to mention the rail erosion issue. I hope they don't design those in.
IIRC the one the USN was working on was technically a coilgun, not rails. But everyone called it a railgun.
 
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Well, a Burke has a crew of ~500, and it's going to take most of 150 people to cover the Flag CIC, Flag staff, and the extra people to care and feed for them.




IIRC it was in need of new power supplies, faster cycling ones.




IIRC the one the USN was working on was technically a coilgun, not rails. But everyone called it a railgun.


Everything I've seen on AB crew size seems to be a bit over 300 not ~500? Additionally AB's don't take advantage of the automation found in later ships. I'd imagine if the AB was designed today, it would have much lower crew maybe low 200s.

IIRC never solved the issue of rail erosion, which is a much large materials/physics issue than power storage which is advancing albeit slowly. It was also definitely a rail gun. I knew people working on it.
 
What we missing is any kind of mention of the sonar systems (bow and/or towed array) and torpedo launcher (Mk32 SVTT or the replacement ATT / Mk58 Compact Rapid Attack Weapon (CRAW)) ).
It'll probably have the same as a Burke 3. And yes, likely Mk58, as the LWT launchers are effectively worthless. No sub should be getting within Mk54 range of a surface ship!



Everything I've seen on AB crew size seems to be a bit over 300 not ~500? Additionally AB's don't take advantage of the automation found in later ships. I'd imagine if the AB was designed today, it would have much lower crew maybe low 200s.
Ah, yeah, I did mess that up. Should be ~325 for Burke crew. But we're still talking a good 150 more bodies for the Flag CIC and flag staff. ~13-20 people on watch times 5 watches is 65-100 just for the CIC, plus the Admiral/Commodore and staff (~20), plus the extra cooks and stewards (yes they still exist) needed to feed house and clothe all of them.

Zumwalts are running about 200 crew, so that may be a valid reference.



IIRC never solved the issue of rail erosion, which is a much large materials/physics issue than power storage which is advancing albeit slowly. It was also definitely a rail gun. I knew people working on it.
Oh? Interesting!
 
Should have used nuclear propulsion.
In isolation, yes.

Given that the contract would have to go to Newport News NSY and replace a carrier in the built schedule, NO, it's not practical to do so.

Only way we could build BBGNs would be to certify one of the west coast shipyards (or former shipyards) for nuclear work and build them there.
 
Maybe the spare ~450 crew are supernumeraries who have to pull the elastic band for the catapult [sic] railgun?

I get why the DDG(X) outgrew its original displacement but this still seems like massive overkill in size for what it carries - even if 35,000 tons was a typo for 25,000 that would still be a lot. Can't help thinking there must be some kind of armour and spacing scheme for survivability at play here.

It's not a terrible concept (railgun excepted) but it seems to be a very ambitious buy in terms of cost and manpower. There is a danger that these ships will become what the QEs have for the RN, a drain that sucks resource out of the escort fleet. Already hints of the that with the FF(X) glorified OPVs. I can see most navies switching to a model of building a few high-end ships and spamming USVs in the hope they are cheaper with no manpower need.
My only worry with that is that China - who seem fairly canny - aren't thinking along those lines and are happily adding the equivalent of a European navy in displacement every year in conventional warships. USVs sound funky but EW/space warfare could make them useless or at least impair their usability. At least a manned warship can act independently on its own.
 
Holy crap!

CBO: Initial battleship could cost $15B-$21B​

 
Holy crap!

CBO: Initial battleship could cost $15B-$21B​

Because the R&D costs always get lumped into the first ship of the class. I don't think that the follow on ships would cost $10b nevermind $15b.
 
This would exceed the cost of a Ford class CVN, right? For a non nuclear vessel?

Either way, I'm still certain that displacement, crew and some aspects of the armaments will be scaled back over the course of the program (which will still result in something more capable than the preceeding DDG(X) program), so subsequently cost should go down too. But they will probably remain expensive, especially the first couple ships. However it should not be surprising for a "first rate" large surface combatant with flag role. I wonder if these could actually have some overlap with the Blue Ridge ships, with regards to command and control facilities. Could explain some of the initial size, cost and crew requirements.
 
This would exceed the cost of a Ford class CVN, right? For a non nuclear vessel?
If you include the development costs, sure.


Either way, I'm still certain that displacement, crew and some aspects of the armaments will be scaled back over the course of the program (which will still result in something more capable than the preceeding DDG(X) program), so subsequently cost should go down too. But they will probably remain expensive, especially the first couple ships. However it should not be surprising for a "first rate" large surface combatant with flag role.
Probably. I'm expecting the final thing to be a 25kton ship, more or less a Des Moines-class CA, not an Iowa or rather a North Carolina-class BB.



I wonder if these could actually have some overlap with the Blue Ridge ships, with regards to command and control facilities. Could explain some of the initial size, cost and crew requirements.
That's what I've been assuming, the Blue Ridge LCCs are ancient.
 
It looks like they took the DDG(X) design concept, made it battleship-sized and added more weaponry and capacity. I assume a DDG(X) would have everything except an EM rail gun. If DDG(X) and BBG(X) share design commonalities, that may be the way to go. And again, freeze a good design baseline and don't go ape shit on changes, scope creep, etc.
 
This ship is not getting funded. The second the Democrats take back Congress they are going to axe this thing. No way are they going to allow a "Trump class" battleship to built. The Navy can draw up ideas for the Trump class or the FF(X), but unless Congress funds these ideas they are dead in the water.
 
This ship is not getting funded. The second the Democrats take back Congress they are going to axe this thing. No way are they going to allow a "Trump class" battleship to built. The Navy can draw up ideas for the Trump class or the FF(X), but unless Congress funds these ideas they are dead in the water.
This assumes that the Dems actually retake congress in 2026.

Though I still think that Congress will whine about the costs, the Navy will come back with a smaller design around 20-25ktons that will be approved as a Cruiser/flagship.
 
This assumes that the Dems actually retake congress in 2026.

Though I still think that Congress will whine about the costs, the Navy will come back with a smaller design around 20-25ktons that will be approved as a Cruiser/flagship.
I assume at 25k it isn't possible to combine everything in a desired package. DDGX lost even gun.
BBGX to me seems coming from 3 ends:
-powerplant to feed energy-intensive weapon suit (which, conveniently, can at this point propel a huge ship to CSG speeds at a cost of steel; same hull will fit more fuel, which is nice);
-maxed survivability/spacing/arc of fire requirements;
-deck area at a full hull coefficient to keep desired modularity(IRBM cells are deep).
---
propelling it to full speed efficiently took a long, BC-like hull.


I.e. smaller design solves Burke problems, but does not offer that much of an advancement over ship already in production. Rail and lasers do.
 
I assume at 25k it isn't possible to combine everything in a desired package. DDGX lost even gun.
DDGX was only like 15k tons, though.



BBGX to me seems coming from 3 ends:
-powerplant to feed energy-intensive weapon suit (which, conveniently, can at this point propel a huge ship to CSG speeds at a cost of steel; same hull will fit more fuel, which is nice);
-maxed survivability/spacing/arc of fire requirements;
-deck area at a full hull coefficient to keep desired modularity(IRBM cells are deep).
---
propelling it to full speed efficiently took a long, BC-like hull.
Agreed.



I.e. smaller design solves Burke problems, but does not offer that much of an advancement over ship already in production. Rail and lasers do.
I'm assuming that we're going to end up with BBGs and then something roughly Burke sized or ~12-13ktons as the replacements for the Burkes.

Ideally we'll get enough BBGs to have 2x BBGs and 4x DDGs per carrier group, 4x SAGs with 2x BBGs and 3x DDGs, plus at least 7 more to be Numbered Fleet flagships, and 2x to replace the LCCs.

And the real ideal would be to build back up to 15 carrier groups, but that's going to take a long time.
 
I'm assuming that we're going to end up with BBGs and then something roughly Burke sized or ~12-13ktons as the replacements for the Burkes.

Ideally we'll get enough BBGs to have 2x BBGs and 4x DDGs per carrier group, 4x SAGs with 2x BBGs and 3x DDGs, plus at least 7 more to be Numbered Fleet flagships, and 2x to replace the LCCs.

And the real ideal would be to build back up to 15 carrier groups, but that's going to take a long time.
Overall agreed, but my assumption at this point is that BBGs aren't meant to form SAGs with DDs. Burke is much of BBG capability minus offensive capability - which is the entire point), but little of its survivability. It honestly doesn't make too much sense to operate them together in harm's way.
Only BBG and USVs; same for new FFX, which are their own thing(lo in fleet structure, rather than Lo in HiLo to Burkes).

As such, survivable SAGs is one arm, CSGs (with all the freed up Burkes from all other functions) and air defenses is second(Burke), FFX - 3rd(rest of the world in relatively softer underbelly). Finally, LCS in stand in/supporting effort - 4th.
 
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