The Soviets' Hipper-class cruisers: Project 83/83K Tallinn (ex-Lützow) and the captured Seydlitz

[YourChair]

The German Hipper-class cruiser Lützow was sold incomplete to the Soviets in 1940 and renamed Petropavlovsk (and 4 years later it was re-renamed Tallinn). It was intended to complete the ship with the help of German specialists, and it was designated Project 83.

• 203mm and 105mm main and secondary batteries were the same as in the Hippers, to be delivered from Germany
• I'm not sure if the AA armament would be German or Soviet, there is conflicting information:
  • one source says German AA guns would be used with no elaboration,
  • one says 6x2 37mm C/30 and 10x1 20mm C/38,
  • yet another says that Soviet twin 37mm guns would be used. This would have to be the 37mm/67.8 (bore length 62.6) in 66-K twin mounts
• Torpedo armament would probably be German, since the configuration was meant to be the same (4x3 533mm)
• Aircraft were meant to be Soviet Beriev KOR-2s
• Fire control for 203mm, 105mm, and torpedoes would assumedly be German

However, the German invasion derailed all these plans. Although the cruiser was nearly complete, it proved impossible to complete the ship to its original specification after the war (although some parts were available from the unfinished Seydlitz, 203mm guns were not available, and the Germans had destroyed and sabotaged all machinery before leaving).

So, in 1949, as the Sverdlovs started construction, proposals were made to instead use a Soviet armament and Soviet systems (Project 83K):

• 4 triple 152mm/57 B-38 guns, replacing twin 203mm guns
• 6 twin 100mm/70 SM-5 mounts (whose stabilization systems were developed from the German 105mm). Positioning unknown, but assumedly they would go where the 105mms were meant to be
• 6x4 45mm/89 SM-20
• 6x4 25mm/79 2M-3
• sources differ on the torpedo armament: either no torpedoes were to be provided, or 2 banks were to be provided (unknown whether triple or quintuple)
• fire control, radars, and other equipment would duplicate the Sverdlovs (Project 68K). As in the postwar Chapayevs and the Sverdlovs, aircraft equipment would not be provided

Also, there were proposals to use 4x3 180mm guns. But these (as well as any guns above 152mm) were apparently not available, so any discussion of heavier armament was shelved. This implies that other armaments were considered, although this could mean a completion with 203mms

World of Warships envisioned this 180mm configuration for their Tallinn, with 4 triple 180mm MK-3-180 turrets, the same turret as the Kirovs. The rest of the armament is 6x2 100mm SM-5, 8x4 45/89 SM-20 (the stock hull uses 8 twin 45mm/78s in SM-16 stabilized twins), and 2 quintuple torpedo tubes.



This doesn't end the story of the Soviet Hippers. The partially completed Hipper-class Seydlitz was captured in reasonably good condition when the Soviets marched through Germany. (The German order to complete this ship as a carrier had been countermanded before any progress was made).

An idea was floated to use the parts from one to complete the other as an "armed training ship" (unknown which would have been chosen for which purpose, but the Tallinn was in a better condition so it's the logical choice). "The Fleet Khruschev Destroyed" says this happened in 1951, and gives the armament as:

• 4x3 152mm
• 4x2 130mm (surely dual-purpose, but unknown if this would be BL-109/BL-110 or SM-2.) [B-2-U was not being considered anymore at this time]
• 32 x 45mm (probably 8x4 SM-20)
• 24 x 25mm (probably 6x4 2M-3)
• 2 sets of torpedo tubes (as usual, this would be either triple or quintuple)
• assumedly Sverdlov-class control systems, electronics, etc

Both of the rearmament plans were dropped, for cost reasons: the ship would be more expensive than a Project 68-bis cruiser, so completion would require the cancellation of a Sverdlov as compensation. Although this is not mentioned, the troubles that would come with the repurposed hull and mechanisms surely played a part in this decision (and such a ship was definitely not worth sacrificing a modern cruiser, freshly designed to Soviet specifications, that was already being built).


Then, according to "The Fleet Khruschev Destroyed", missile conversion projects were drawn up for both the Tallinn and the Seydlitz, using the missiles derived from the V-1 rockets [10Kh series]. These projects, just like many of the Sverdlov missile conversions, never went anywhere.

Additionally, there was apparently talk about converting the ship into a carrier (as well as the Seydlitz). If true, this would likely require dismantling large amounts of material in Tallinn's case, since large parts of the superstructure were already done.

A proposed conversion for Tallinn into a training cruiser (apparently armaments would be 2x3 152mm B-38, 2x2 130mm B-2LM, 2x4 45mm, 2x4 25mm) went nowhere. Both cruisers were scrapped without anything being done.


This is all the information my few Russian-language sources have. Anything further on the Soviet Hippers would be appreciated!

 

[Tzoli]

Chapayev class fire conttol and other equipment is more likely then Sverdlovs which wasn't designed at this time at all.

Also the Project 82 which became the Stalingrads started it's life as a sort of Hipperized Chapayev with either copied Soviet manufactured German 203mm guns or new Soviet ones.

 

[YourChair]

Chapayev class fire conttol and other equipment is more likely then Sverdlovs which wasn't designed at this time at all.

Sorry, that's my fault for being unclear. These projects come from the 1949-1951 period, when the Sverdlovs were already under construction, I will edit the main post.

Also the Project 82 which became the Stalingrads started it's life as a sort of Hipperized Chapayev with either copied Soviet manufactured German 203mm guns or new Soviet ones.

True
I think the initial 203mm Project 82 from 1942 was built on the hopes that the Germans would either sell more of their 203mms, or help produce them in the USSR. After the German invasion, all talk of 203mm guns stopped; the next armament

That being said, the internal arrangements of this early Project 82 were based on the Hippers, and this was true of even the final design. As for Hipperized Chapayevs: Sverdlovs definitely fit that bill