Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

Forest Green said:
Couldn't the Meteor fly a more direct path to the target though, rather than a parabolic arc, and it would remain propelled longer for manoeuvring. Using stealth CCA's or space-based AMTI to detect the target could also allow manned or non-stealth assets to fire from further away.
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It has a lot of potential, but "Using stealth CCA's or space-based AMTI to detect the target" is not yet a proven concept, hence the criticsm over the E-7 cancellation.

Modern missiles gain the increase in range with "lofting", and ramjets are generally inferior in this aspect.

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Top speed is a desirable quality against capable fighters, especially more so in a VLO vs VLO scenario. Ramjet missiles are limited to Mach 4.

High-speed missiles can be both lighter, cheaper and longer-ranged with rocket engines. It's not possible to achieve high ballistic trajectories with ramjets. The advantage of ramjets is being able to fly at low altitudes for a long time.

Maintaining speed and relative velocity after the engine shut-down are also important. A Mach 3 ramjet missile would be advantageous against an approaching aircraft, while a Mach 5 rocket could be more advantageous against a retreating one. Time to target is critical and ramjets bleed energy much faster once they burn out.
 
https://twitter.com/x/status/1998193139371098301
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1998193139371098301?s=20

snne said:
It has a lot of potential, but "Using stealth CCA's or space-based AMTI to detect the target" is not yet a proven concept, hence the criticsm over the E-7 cancellation.

Modern missiles gain the increase in range with "lofting", and ramjets are generally inferior in this aspect.

FdDT5M0XkAAv_7m


FdDU1aUXEAEHvKy


Top speed is a desirable quality against capable fighters, especially more so in a VLO vs VLO scenario. Ramjet missiles are limited to Mach 4.

High-speed missiles can be both lighter and longer-ranged with rocket engines. It's not possible to achieve high ballistic trajectories with ramjets. The advantage of ramjets is being able to fly at low altitudes for a long time.

Maintaining speed and relative velocity after the engine shut-down are also important. A Mach 3 ramjet missile would be advantageous against an approaching aircraft, while a Mach 5 rocket could be more advantageous against a retreating one. Time to target is critical and ramjets bleed energy much faster once they burn out.
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The graphs show VFDRs have a huge advantage over SFRJ for a missile of equivalent size and if you look at the area under the v-t graph (bottom left, or indeed just look at top right graph ;) ), it really doesn't take the VFDR very long at all to make up the initial ground against a SFRJ. You could increase the SFRJ's range some with multiple pulses but you aren't making back a 3-fold difference.

From post #143:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/aargm-vfdr-missiles.3411/post-450763 1765292214205.png
 
red admiral said:
My understanding is that this is not permitted under UK government defence procurement rules, regardless of whether it is LM, JPO, or other. You can only have incentive fees and not penalties.
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Penalties are allowed for missed KPI and Milestones. I know...because I've used them before. Can't say on who (UK posters would die laughing though...)...but it resulted in them taking a loss on the entire programme....
 
US ambassador says ‘fruitful’ talks held with Turkey on F-35s, Russian air defense system

The US ambassador to Turkey says Washington and Ankara are holding talks on purchasing F-35 stealth fighter jets, which it is barred from doing since acquiring the S-400 air defense system from Russia.

“As laid out in US law, Turkey must no longer operate nor possess the S-400 system to return to the F-35 program. The positive relationship between President Trump and President Erdogan has created a new atmosphere of cooperation, which has led to the most fruitful conversations we have had on this topic in nearly a decade,” Ambassador Tom Barrack writes on X.

“Our hope is that these talks will yield a breakthrough in the coming months that meets both the security requirements of the United States and Turkey.”
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...h-turkey-on-f-35s-russian-air-defense-system/
 
PLA watcher claims China got ahold of an F-135-PW-600 and reverse engineered it...

Chatgpt translation:

① 升推一体动力系统组合压气机加工制造装配​


Literal translation:
Manufacturing and assembly of the combined compressor for an integrated lift–thrust propulsion system


Technical meaning:


  • “升推一体动力系统” = lift-thrust integrated power system → China’s term for a STOVL engine with lift-fan + main engine, like the F-135-600.
  • “组合压气机” = combined/compound compressor → strongly suggests work on the fan + low-pressure compressor + driveshaft configuration needed to power a lift fan.
  • The line refers to machining and assembling compressor components—a core part of duplicating the F-135’s lift-fan airflow structure.

Date: March 19, 2025



② 升推一体动力系统核心机原理实验测试系统集成​


Literal translation:
Integration of the core-engine principle experimental test system for an integrated lift–thrust propulsion system


Technical meaning:
They are integrating a research test rig for the core engine of this lift-fan propulsion concept.
This indicates they are:


  • building or validating a core engine prototype,
  • testing the thermodynamic cycle,
  • evaluating how the power extraction shaft would operate.

This is exactly the type of early-phase experimental work needed before building a Chinese analogue of the F-135’s core + power-extraction drive.


Date: August 1, 2025



③ 升推一体动力系统燃气发生器关键零件检测与逆向设计​


Literal translation:
Inspection and reverse design of key components of the gas generator for an integrated lift–thrust propulsion system


Yes—this explicitly says reverse design.


“逆向设计” = reverse design, which is a euphemism for reverse engineering.
“燃气发生器” = gas generator → the hot core section of a turbofan (compressor + combustor + turbine).


Technical meaning:
They are:


  • examining (“inspection”)
  • and reverse-engineering (“reverse design”)
    key components of a gas generator for a STOVL lift-fan engine.

This is extremely close to saying:


“We are reverse-engineering the core of a STOVL engine like the F-135-600.”
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Date: October 17, 2025
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https://xcancel.com/Alfa_Particle/status/1998707847815991640
 

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You do know that the USAF and their F-35 partners have an engine tracking system and know exactly where every complete engine and spare module is located. A stolen engine would be immediately known to the program.

The general configuration of the F135-600 lift system is public knowledge. Perhaps China is attempting to reverse engineer the concept based on their understanding of gas turbine performance rather than creating a duplicate of the F135-600.
 
snne said:

'no escape' in a 90s-10s environment? Sure. But there's a reason why both China and the U.S. seriously considered developing ramjet-powered missiles, but ultimately opted for dual-pulse engines instead.​

Modern AAMs fly very parabolic BM-like trajectories. A high-speed low-drag rocket is going to achieve a longer range than a ramjet-powered missile in such a trajectory. Ramjet missiles have a lot of energy but they are too limited in speed. They give too much time to the opposing fighter to realise it is getting attacked, fire back and then u-turn. This is especially critical between stealth aircraft because the engagements are expected to happen within a few dozen kilometres.
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Both conventional solid fuel missiles and ramjet powered missiles can follow quasi parabolic trajectories. However, a ramjet missile will almost always outrange a solid fuel missile of comparable size because it does not need to carry its own oxidizer and can throttle its engine for much greater efficiency throughout its flight.
The main drawback of ramjet missiles is their lower acceleration and reduced top speed. Since both US and China operate large numbers of stealth fighters, they expect many engagements to also occur at relatively short ranges around 20 to 30 kilometers. At these distances, the rapid acceleration provided by a solid fuel rocket motor becomes far more important than the long range efficiency of a ramjet. They basically want their missile to be able to reach long range but still very effective at short range. You can get a feel for this difference by trying a sim game like War Thunder. Fly the F-14 and compare the Fakour with the AIM-54. The AIM-54 can reach farther, but the Fakour’s much faster acceleration makes it far deadlier in medium range engagements.

snne said:
ramjets bleed energy much faster once they burn out.
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This would be irrelevant in actual engagement because ramjet engine can burn for much longer period. AMRAAM burn out in 4-5 seconds, Meteor engine burn out in 3-4 minutes
 
They wanted to buy it for 200 million dollars apiece, now they will buy it for 250. And they will also pay 300 million dollars for the maintenance of each aircraft during operation.
 
paralay said:
They wanted to buy it for 200 million dollars apiece, now they will buy it for 250. And they will also pay 300 million dollars for the maintenance of each aircraft during operation.
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Aside from Trump's idiotic tariffs what is the basis for that assertion? As for the deal going through the US might have face a financial loss in keeping the deal otherwise facing a cancellation of said F-35 due to a massive increase in costs.
 
NMaude said:
Aside from Trump's idiotic tariffs what is the basis for that assertion? As for the deal going through the US might have face a financial loss in keeping the deal otherwise facing a cancellation of said F-35 due to a massive increase in costs.
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I'd ignore the statement altogether. The F-35 was the cheapest option per the competition the Swiss ran while also conviently being the most capable as well. The fact remains the Swiss purchased via FMS and that guarantees you pay the same price as the US, plus a service fee, so it isn't like there is a bait and switch here.
 
Ozair said:
The F-35 was the cheapest option
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The cheapest upfront, and in 2012 dollars. There's a 41% escalation between 2012 $ and 2025 $. So, the airframe that JPO says is $80M today is actually $113M today; it's not very clear, but the F135 2012 year $ price is also probably around $30M. That would also make it approximately around $50-55M. So, $101M flyable plane but in 2012 dollars.
Combined with the cost of otherwise fully equipped F-35 airframes in Lot 18, that puts the cost of an F-35 at $101.5 million. DOD and F-35 maker Lockheed Martin agreed in December on a deal not to exceed $11.76 billion for 145 aircraft, an average cost of $81.1 million.
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/new-f-35-engine-contract-puts-fighters-price-tag-over-100m/
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Still cheap though considering it was and still is the only 5th gen available for export in real numbers.

Screenshot 2025-12-14 202539.png Screenshot 2025-12-14 202554.png

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61482
 
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It seems Turkey is looking to make some room to get the F-35 by throwing away their S400:

Turkey is reportedly considering returning S-400 air-defense systems it purchased from Russia in an effort to improve relations with the United States and potentially regain access to the American F-35 fighter jet program, according to Bloomberg.
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-to-take-back-missiles-in-bid-to-win-us-favor
https://www.ekathimerini.com/politi...rn-of-russian-s-400s-amid-f-35-talks-with-us/
 
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TomcatViP said:
It seems Turkey is looking to make some room to get the F-35 by throwing away their S400:



https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-to-take-back-missiles-in-bid-to-win-us-favor
https://www.ekathimerini.com/politi...rn-of-russian-s-400s-amid-f-35-talks-with-us/
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Obviously, the American ambassador keeps telling everyone that the matter will get resolved in “4–6 months”, but there is a deafening silence from the TR side. I would not be surprised either way, whether the battalion gets shipped back to Russia or they just keep rusting away in hangars.

As I keep saying, what got Turkey kicked out of the programme was not the S-400 purchase itself, but the deteriorating relationship between Turkey and the CENTCOM (there was also this whole "pastor Brunson crisis" that contributed to the removal).

Those with long-term memories will also remember that, above all, it was the Israeli pressure in Congress to ensure the TurAF remains technologically behind. Neither the Greek nor the Armenian lobby could have otherwise pulled this off on their own.

This is exactly why the ambassador keeps repeating that the issue will be resolved in “4–6 months”, because after that, due to the midterms, they will never be able to remove the CAATSA on Turkey, which was politically tied to the S-400 battalion Turkey purchased. Above all else, Turkey needs the removal of the CAATSA for the LRIP production of the Kaan, as well as to restore the international trade of the Turkish military industrial complex. No analyst nor observer in the TR side believes that the Turkish-owned F-35s will ever be returned, but that's not even TR's priority.

As I keep saying, this was never a purely technical decision, but primarily a political one. Erdogan fell straight into Putin’s trap, just so he could give the Americans the middle finger for interfering in Turkish internal politics, which is obviously a big no-no for any truly-independent country.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/search/1627694/?t=post&c[thread]=17732&c[users]=snne&o=relevance
We are all aware of the hold Israel has over US politics, so I wouldn't say that Turkish-owned jets will finally be returned to Turkey until they actually land on Turkish soil... They put Turkey in their crosshairs as the next rival they intend to level to the ground (after Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and finally, Iran)...

https://greece.news-pravda.com/en/greece/2025/12/17/5850.html

https://greekreporter.com/2025/12/17/greece-israel-cyprus-hold-confidential-air-force-summit
NMaude said:
I hope that is what happens to the Turkish SA-21s.
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kqcke for you said:
Or give it you Ukraine which would be kinda ironic
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Obviously, military contracts always include clauses specifically for preventing such situations.

For Turkey, this is truly a "stick with sh-t on both ends" kinda situation, as the Turkish idiom goes... And things are not gonna get any better, contrary to what that b-st-rd Erdo thinks...
 
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FighterJock said:
How would the JSM differ from the LRASM in terms of range and warhead capabilities?
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LRASM has a 1000lb warhead while JSM is closer to 260lbs. Depending on launch profile range is broadly similar although LRASM is apparently getting a range extension that will likely come with a reduced warhead size.
 
Increase of production capacity, the new goal of US administration for the F-35:

Trump also said he plans to meet with defense prime contractors in Florida next week. Up for discussion, the president said would be the need for more production plants to build F-35s as well as a number of practices around capital expenditures and executive compensation.

“We’re going to be discussing [capital expenditure] spending. We’ll be discussing the the pay to executives, where they’re making $45 and $50 million a year and not being able to build quickly. They’re going to make that kind of money. They have to build quickly,” Trump said. “And we’re going to be also discussing dividends. We want the dividends to go into the creation of production facilities.”

Trump also said he would bring up the issue of stock buy backs. “They spend so much money on buybacks, they want to buy back their stock. I don’t want them to buy back their stock. I want them to put the money in plants and equipment,” he added.
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https://breakingdefense.com/2025/12...ump-class-battleship-as-part-of-golden-fleet/
 

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