Rambling about UFO

[Michel Van]

I know we have policy and rules about UFO in this Forum
i just issue few Ufo Topic like Roswell (US hardware crash) or Belgium UFO wave (US clandestine Operation do fall of East block)
So I put that here in This section

There some thing in eyewitness reports on UFO encounters that is odd to me:

Why look the interior of UFOs like from 1970s cheap Sci-fi Movie / Tv series ?
I mean like movie Starship Invasions (1977) what is Blue Print on everything about UFO encounters.
you know, big head aliens, telepathy, flying saucers, extended medical investigation on abducted Human...
And interiors cheaply made by Hollywood or for BBC Doctor Who in 1970s...

Also how the Occupants of UFO changes over the time
In 1953 eyewitness reports of UFO Flap in France/Italy describe those "Martians" as
120~150cm high humans Asians~Vietnamese looking with suntan skin and freckle.
Waring overalls or Uniforms like out B-movie Sci-fi.
But over time this became more and more Greys of later UFO reports...

While other witnesses saw 120 cm hairy humans, hairy like urangutans, with yellow eyes (reflective layer like in cats eyes?)
Either waring a wide belt~corset and some times a "armament" out plexiglass like material.

About so called "Nordic Aliens"
I notice that witnesses were people like George Adamski, Billy Meier, who you can't call credible witnesses.

So what is my point ?
How much pop-culture influence the UFO eyewitness memory ?

Best example is Barney and Betty Hill UFO encounter in September 19, 1961
but got only 1964 first hypnotic session that "discover" what happen that night in 1961
only 14 days before this was broadcast of The Outer Limits episode "The Bellero Shield"
and oddly the Aliens the Hill describe during hypnotic session, face allot similarity of alien in that Episode...

 

[Justo Miranda]

I know we have policy and rules about UFO in this Forum
i just issue few Ufo Topic like Roswell (US hardware crash) or Belgium UFO wave (US clandestine Operation do fall of East block)
So I put that here in This section

There some thing in eyewitness reports on UFO encounters that is odd to me:

Why look the interior of UFOs like from 1970s cheap Sci-fi Movie / Tv series ?
I mean like movie Starship Invasions (1977) what is Blue Print on everything about UFO encounters.
you know, big head aliens, telepathy, flying saucers, extended medical investigation on abducted Human...
And interiors cheaply made by Hollywood or for BBC Doctor Who in 1970s...

Also how the Occupants of UFO changes over the time
In 1953 eyewitness reports of UFO Flap in France/Italy describe those "Martians" as
120~150cm high humans Asians~Vietnamese looking with suntan skin and freckle.
Waring overalls or Uniforms like out B-movie Sci-fi.
But over time this became more and more Greys of later UFO reports...

While other witnesses saw 120 cm hairy humans, hairy like urangutans, with yellow eyes (reflective layer like in cats eyes?)
Either waring a wide belt~corset and some times a "armament" out plexiglass like material.

About so called "Nordic Aliens"
I notice that witnesses were people like George Adamski, Billy Meier, who you can't call credible witnesses.

So what is my point ?
How much pop-culture influence the UFO eyewitness memory ?

Best example is Barney and Betty Hill UFO encounter in September 19, 1961
but got only 1964 first hypnotic session that "discover" what happen that night in 1961
only 14 days before this was broadcast of The Outer Limits episode "The Bellero Shield"
and oddly the Aliens the Hill describe during hypnotic session, face allot similarity of alien in that Episode...

Witnesses use cultural references in use in each society and era to describe phenomena that exceed their scientific knowledge and it is the responsibility of the chronicler to translate them into current language.

Over time, lightning, thunder, volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, comets, eclipses and pandemics have been unmasked by science, reducing the field of action of shamans and forcing them to create new characters to justify their disgusting way of life. Always anchored to cognitive elements that are already in the minds of their victims.

In the fifties it was necessary to play with technologies superior to those of the victors of the war to ensure the humility of the victims: the superior races of the galaxy, in their infinite wisdom, advise us to close all nuclear power plants because our governments are childish, irresponsible and dangerous.

In the sixties we hoped that aliens would free us from the threat of nuclear extinction. The telepathic race that inhabited Tibet and the superiority of the Eastern races were spoken of again.

In the 1970s, the threat shifted to the dangers of overpopulation and the extinction of fossil energy sources. ET suggested renewable energies to save us and understand the language of whales and dolphins, without taking parrots into account.

In the eighties the Soviet Union ceased to be scary, and it was necessary to replace it with something more intangible and difficult to falsify such as the ozone layer, mutated in glaciation, mutated in global warming, mutated in climate change.

In the nineties it was the fear of terrorism and illegal immigration.

At the beginning of the new century, the danger was the loss of the internet due to terrorism, the Carrington Effect or the end of the miniaturization of microchips to reach the warming limit.

Then came fears of cell phone radiation, the plastic island of the central Pacific (again the Sargasso myth) and that new designer synthetic drugs would affect the traditional business of illegal plantations.

When a serious social problem arises, decent people think: How do we solve it?

Shamans think: how do we use it?

There are no superior extraterrestrials, no dragons, no gods, no invisible monsters, no telepaths, no elves.

The superior beings are us, there is no one else out there judging our mistakes or our scientific advances.

 

[Michel Van]

Witnesses use cultural references in use in each society and era to describe phenomena that exceed their scientific knowledge and it is the responsibility of the chronicler to translate them into current language.

absoute

in 1950s eyewitness reports UFOnauts warn us about Atomic Bomb or danger of nuclear War

1960s to 1970s also, but now it start to vary
like plant collector from mars, up to visitors from "federation" also rise of UFO religions

1980s feature the environment warnings by UFOnauts

But the 1990s with end of Cold War, the eyewitness reports change
now extended medical investigation on abducted Human by Grey aliens
Creation of Human/Grey hybrids

It seems that UFO repots reflection with our fear of the Time,
Cold War, Nuclear War, environment issue, danger of Gentech

 

[Arjen]

medical investigation on abducted Human by Grey aliens

With a peculiar prediliction on the part of UFOnauts for anal probing the abductees.
I would suggest therapy, but I think my suggestion would fall on deaf ears.

 

[Michel Van]

With a peculiar prediliction on the part of UFOnauts for anal probing the abductees.

I not wanted to say that so directly, so i wrote extended medical investigation on abducted Human...
...that include the encounter of the reproduction kind, some witness experience.

 

[TomS]

I would point to Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World for a lay person's explanation. There are clear parallels between UFO abduction stories of the 20th Century and faerie abductions in the medieval ages (for example). Many of them are just translations of night terrors, sleep paralysis, and various mental disorders into more comprehensible actions by external actors (little green men, grays, or faerie queens are much the same on this context).

 

[Michel Van]

Oh yes @TomS
Carl Gustav Jung and Jacques Vallée had similar theory

However Vallée issue idea that higher dimensional beings encounter us, our brain try visualise that, with Jung's archetype image
Faeries in medieval times, UFOs in atomic age.

A similar idea had also Burkhard Heim, he theorise that if Higher Dimensional beings exist,
they could manifest there thought in our realm in forms, we could see...
[in context of his theory of Univers with 12 dimensions]

 

[quellish]

absoute

in 1950s eyewitness reports UFOnauts warn us about Atomic Bomb or danger of nuclear War

1960s to 1970s also, but now it start to vary
like plant collector from mars, up to visitors from "federation" also rise of UFO religions

1980s feature the environment warnings by UFOnauts

But the 1990s with end of Cold War, the eyewitness reports change
now extended medical investigation on abducted Human by Grey aliens
Creation of Human/Grey hybrids

It seems that UFO repots reflection with our fear of the Time,
Cold War, Nuclear War, environment issue, danger of Gentech

Prior to the late 70s/early 80s the supposed encounters were largely "friendly". Friendly aliens with the occasional "don't blow up your planet dude" messages.

Then everything changed, the messaging and the encounters. "Abductions" became the new version of the encounters.

Most of these supposed abduction experiences were "investigated" using hypnosis to recall supposedly suppressed memories. Many of the people who were conducting the hypnosis sessions had their own agendas.

Some of the first "abduction" hypnosis sessions were done by a certain individual. In (IIRC) 1980 he hypnotized two different individuals from different parts of the country within a month of each other. Their stories were almost exactly the same down to the same wording used in their descriptions. One of the two cases had a..... very strong connection to the Air Force and some their shenanigans. Many years later this guy's peers pointed out that he had been asking leading questions, etc. during his hypnosis sessions , sometimes clearly deliberately.

Other "abduction researchers" did similar things. Many of them had no formal training, and had their own agendas. Several of the well known "abduction researchers" from the 1980s and 1990s we now know were abusing the "abductees".

 

[Justo Miranda]

The unknown does not necessarily have to be something supernatural, sometimes it is simple misinformation, the favorite tool of the guys upstairs.

During the twenties (I write this from memory) an experimental military balloon of the Spanish Army made a night flight crossing the country from North to South, the prevailing wind was strong, and the crew decided to launch a trawl cable to slow down the advance and avoid meeting over the sea at dawn.

Around four in the morning, the cable caught in the chimney of an isolated farmhouse in the middle of nowhere, tearing off part of the roof, but the balloon continued to fly. The War Ministry sent a representative to the crash site to negotiate reparations for the damage and found that the local population spoke of nocturnal demons kidnapping people.

Unfortunately, most of the disappearances of humans are produced by humans themselves for such horrible purposes that it is better not to talk about this here.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Well, there is imoho, a degree of folk who have a predilection to smoking their own dried toe jam/fungus. Or worse.

 

[Michel Van]

This map show were People encounter UFO
you notice that industrial country have large number of sighting
of course in third world countries lack of communication infrastructure could prevent report sighting.

 

[Arjen]

So... UFOs are hydrophobic?

 

[Michel Van]

So... UFOs are hydrophobic?

Not quite, once they dive into water they become unidentified submerged object or USO
That official a U.S. Navy designation...

 

[Dynoman]

There have been a number of psychological studies of those who report UFOs and have close encounters with them. Often its a sighting that could be explained by natural phenomena or unknown man-made objects. However, the traits of those who are likely to claim their sighting were of alien origin share similar characteristics.

"Those making a UFO sighting and also believing some UFOs to be alien spaceships were slightly more likely to believe in the occult and to consider the government dishonest concerning UFOs. The strongest relationship was between having seen a UFO and knowing someone else who had a UFO sighting. (15 ref) (PsycInfo Database Record (c) 2022 APA"

"They show higher levels of dissociativity, absorption, paranormal belief and experience, and possibly fantasy proneness. They also appear to show greater susceptibility to false memories as assessed using the Deese/Roediger-McDermott technique. French, Christopher et al., Psychological aspects of the alien contact experience, Cortex Journal, Nov 2008."

"Psychological interviews and tests conducted on the abductees reveal little evidence of mental illness, but they enjoy a rich fantasy life. When they listen to music or watch movies they often imagine they are somewhere else or part of the movie plot. The typical abductee, notes McNally, “has a longstanding interest in ‘New Age’ practices and beliefs such as reincarnation, astral projection, mental telepathy, alternative healing practices, energy therapies, and astrology.”
"He and his colleagues conclude, “a combination of pre-existing New Age beliefs, episodes of sleep paralysis, accompanied by hallucinations and hypnotic memory recovery may foster beliefs and memories that one has been abducted by space aliens.” Cromie, William, Harvard Gazette, Feb 20, 2003.

 

[Foo Fighter]

There have been a number of psychological studies of those who report UFOs and have close encounters with them. Often its a sighting that could be explained by natural phenomena or unknown man-made objects. However, the traits of those who are likely to claim their sighting were of alien origin share similar characteristics.

"Those making a UFO sighting and also believing some UFOs to be alien spaceships were slightly more likely to believe in the occult and to consider the government dishonest concerning UFOs. The strongest relationship was between having seen a UFO and knowing someone else who had a UFO sighting. (15 ref) (PsycInfo Database Record (c) 2022 APA"

"They show higher levels of dissociativity, absorption, paranormal belief and experience, and possibly fantasy proneness. They also appear to show greater susceptibility to false memories as assessed using the Deese/Roediger-McDermott technique. French, Christopher et al., Psychological aspects of the alien contact experience, Cortex Journal, Nov 2008."

"Psychological interviews and tests conducted on the abductees reveal little evidence of mental illness, but they enjoy a rich fantasy life. When they listen to music or watch movies they often imagine they are somewhere else or part of the movie plot. The typical abductee, notes McNally, “has a longstanding interest in ‘New Age’ practices and beliefs such as reincarnation, astral projection, mental telepathy, alternative healing practices, energy therapies, and astrology.”
"He and his colleagues conclude, “a combination of pre-existing New Age beliefs, episodes of sleep paralysis, accompanied by hallucinations and hypnotic memory recovery may foster beliefs and memories that one has been abducted by space aliens.” Cromie, William, Harvard Gazette, Feb 20, 2003.

So, the same things that are taught in Bible studies etc and are widely held beliefs in religion? I suppose it 'sort of' explains the USA in belief etc.

Whilst I believe in intelligence 'out there', I am rather more sanguine about their presence here. I mean, really? Knowing what we know about this place, would we bother beyond first glance and saying, "Wow, and they manage to walk and talk at the same time too"?

 

[uk 75]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...pause-cold-war-case-alien-invasion-180957402/

 

[uk 75]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-detection_policyClearly "Take me to your Leader" may require the usual human bureaucracy.

 

[TomS]

Deep thoughts from an otter

 

[Michel Van]

UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object

But over the time from 1950s to today the term became ridiculousness,
it's eyewitness made a laughing stock by media

Now Politician and Military use new term UAP or Unidentified Aerial Phenomena...

 

[TsrJoe]

Iv also seen the term UCT. used, UnCorrelated Target

 

[sublight_]

UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object

But over the time from 1950s to today the term became ridiculousness,
it's eyewitness made a laughing stock by media

Now Politician and Military use new term UAP or Unidentified Aerial Phenomena...

No, no, no, its all true. See even respected news outlets like CBS news is reporting on it....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFUNHTZBIVQ


They would never just spread unsubstantiated bullshit, would they?

 

[sublight_]

This map show were People encounter UFO
you notice that industrial country have large number of sighting
of course in third world countries lack of communication infrastructure could prevent report sighting.

I highly suspect this heat map does not accurately reflect data from Russia during the cold war.

 

[Michel Van]

I highly suspect this heat map does not accurately reflect data from Russia during the cold war.

The issue is allot Soviet UFO Files either remain in Russan language or went lost as USSR collapsed

Other Archives got destroy by indifference people, who consider that investigation waste to Time
one large UFO archive was burned after the researcher died, by his Widow considering those UFO total nonsense...

 

[galgot]

No, no, no, its all true. See even respected news outlets like CBS news is reporting on it....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFUNHTZBIVQ


They would never just spread unsubstantiated bullshit, would they?

Same logic as when journalists don't question or contradict with known facts, an official when he is obviously lying.
I mean, like on many other issues, politicians/officials/people with power are lying or are incredibly stupid and incompetents, yet medias present their statements as "Mr XXX said that" as it should be credible because it's from some politicians/officials/people with power. Without facts checking when it is the basis of journalist profession .
Funny how one talking point one can hear again and again in these is "I"ve talked to numerous officials and well repected... " blahblah. Like THAT should be a proof of something.

 

[Michel Van]

No, no, no, its all true. See even respected news outlets like CBS news is reporting on it....

Please god, don't let them trow Ancient Aliens in this discussion...
i beg you lord, i take everything like Bob Lazar, Capitol Hill hearing on UAP, Jaime Maussan, Billy Meier, Von Däniken etc...
...everything, but not Ancient Aliens.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Please god, don't let them trow Ancient Aliens in this discussion...
i beg you lord, i take everything like Bob Lazar, Capitol Hill hearing on UAP, Jaime Maussan, Billy Meier, Von Däniken etc...
...everything, but not Ancient Aliens.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/jimmy-carter-ufo-sighting

The ancient the observer, the more things he does not know, and the less vocabulary exists in his language to describe the phenomenon..".Clipei Ardentes"...


Cambridge University Press & Assessment
https://www.cambridge.org › services › content › view





“Plinio, nat. 2.20 (§ 84): De sideribus musica,” RELat 14. (2014) 53–86. McKenzie, Judith.
everything is a matter of the gods. At present, everything that is not understood is quantum and no one is surprised by anything. In some countries people don't even stop to help a guy who falls dead next to them, it can be reality TV, or a cartel reckoning and no one wants to spend the rest of the day testifying to the police and months later in a trial.

What would history have been like if Carter had been abducted that day? Would the Iranian regime have lasted that long?

 

[Michel Van]

What would history have been like if Carter had been abducted that day? Would the Iranian regime have lasted that long?

Ronald Reagan saw also UFO
is that reason for SDI and US-Soviet agreement in case of Alien Invasion ?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Ronald Reagan saw also UFO
is that reason for SDI and US-Soviet agreement in case of Alien Invasion ?

A race with FTL technology does not need to invade us.

None of the Reagan-era weapons would work against them, they could simply deflect an asteroid and wait, or a virus and wait or an explosion at the annual meeting of the Chinese Communist Party and wait.

In my opinion, we have only two things that might interest strange intelligence: the enormous variety of life forms on our planet and the evolutionary mechanism that made us an intelligent species. DNA is easy to obtain with discrete robot probes and the analysis of our culture through the media should be enough to get a general idea of the speed of the evolution of intelligence.

Any other mineral or substance that might interest them is more abundant in space than on the surface of the planets, they do not need to invade us at all.

All ETs who are on a 124-light-year radio sphere around the sun already know that we are here, thanks to Marconi.

 

[Michel Van]

A race with FTL technology does not need to invade us.

We had already that conversation about Aliens and first contact in another Thread

Let me say that Aliens that Use FTL have technology that is indistinguishable from magic
and how has FTL can exploit red dwarfs System for raw material...

 

[Justo Miranda]

We had already that conversation about Aliens and first contact in another Thread

Let me say that Aliens that Use FTL have technology that is indistinguishable from magic
and how has FTL can exploit red dwarfs System for raw material...

A technology that cannot be distinguished from magic, from our level of technological knowledge, does not need tugs of materials, it can manufacture them anywhere it needs them by playing with elementary particles, and the immense amount of energy extracted from the quantum vacuum, or from dark energy, or from something we can't even imagine.

FTL technology involves high knowledge of field theory and the structure of matter, assuming it is a race that still needs matter.

 

[Michel Van]

or from something we can't even imagine.

Heim Theory about Universe imply a 12 dimensional structure
Dived in two section each with Six dimension, our side Universe and High dimensional place.
Heim postulated that that place could be inhabit by higher Dimensional Intelligence.
Beings so strange, we could't understand them
He theorised that those Beings could interact with our universe by simply think about it
what then materialised in our universe...

But that part of Burhard Heim Theory is far edge of Metaphysic and philosophy

 

[Justo Miranda]

Heim Theory about Universe imply a 12 dimensional structure
Dived in two section each with Six dimension, our side Universe and High dimensional place.
Heim postulated that that place could be inhabit by higher Dimensional Intelligence.
Beings so strange, we could't understand them
He theorised that those Beings could interact with our universe by simply think about it
what then materialised in our universe...

But that part of Burhard Heim Theory is far edge of Metaphysic and philosophy

Our senses have evolved to serve our survival in terrestrial environmental conditions, but our imaginations have long since been disconnected from those limitations.

We have instruments to see other galaxies, to see infrared radiation, to see ultraviolet radiation, to see the ocean floor and even to see the interior of the earth. We can calculate the diameter of the Europa satellite's core, the depth of its ocean and the thickness of the outer ice sheet, we can see the inside of the cell and know what is happening inside the atom.

It's only a matter of time and money before our telescopes can get information about what we need to know about extrasolar planets and their moons. It's just a matter of time and money that we can build a multidimensional interface that helps us visualize what our mind discovered long ago.

In my opinion, we are not giving the importance that dreams, or science fiction deserve... there is something important that escapes us again and again. We need computing power and a good translation interface.

 

[uk 75]

Perhaps the best guide to how Aliens may deal with Earth and its occupants is how we have dealt with them.
Comes down to two overriding motives:
Curiosity : all exploration and science is based on us asking questions and wanting to know answers.
Greed : we value things on how we can use them for our benefit.

In both cases any Aliens would not need to make their presence known to us and would carry out their activities accordingly just as we do.

 

[Michel Van]

Perhaps the best guide to how Aliens may deal with Earth and its occupants is how we have dealt with them.
Comes down to two overriding motives:
Curiosity : all exploration and science is based on us asking questions and wanting to know answers.
Greed : we value things on how we can use them for our benefit.

In both cases any Aliens would not need to make their presence known to us and would carry out their activities accordingly just as we do.

oh yes this called Angel-Ape Problem in Sci-fi
The biggest problem is if Alien arrive today we are the Apes, and depending on mercy of the Angels
If they consider us as primitive apes it's game over

We had that Discussion in The Bar under
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/are-sci-fi-monsters-and-aliens-too-hard-to-kill.43812/and
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/really-alien-aliens.43953/also
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/et-friend-foe-or-doesnt-matter.36216/post-430537and here
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/extraterrestrials-hope-or-threat.32386/post-363414finally
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-and-or-extraterrestrial-life.9470/post-86591
Back to Topic
if UFOs are Alien origin, they seem only interest in our DNA to create Human-Grey Hybrids.
and also in Plants and Soil samples in some cases, mean this they only interested in DNA ?
it make sense if create or extract there needed resources, from lifeless red dwarf planetary system.

However the narrative of Human-Grey Hybrids raises questions !
Can they combine Alien DNA with Human DNA ?
certain parts of DNA for metabolism be compatible, other parts will be total incompatible.
even with DNA manipulation on leven on Magic, you can't fool nature...

After looking into this narrative and genetics under Occam's razor
Are Grey Aliens in fact related to species Homo sapiens ???

 

[Justo Miranda]

If we have scientists who spend half their lives studying the reproductive cycle of a worm or the neural connections of a fly, they will have people interested in things that will seem completely absurd to us.

Do not expect big-eyed humanoids with technology a couple of centuries ahead of them, expect stranger things than we can imagine with alien values and purposes.

 

[uk 75]

As a history student rather than a scientist I am always puzzled by the attempts to predict what Aliens might be like.
On Earth only ourselves, an evolved ape mammal, have anything resembling a spacefaring civilisation. Yet Sci Fi invents Angels ranging from bug eyed big headed grey dwarves to flickering lights or gaseous clouds. I put this down to human imagination rather than any realistic guess at an advanced form of life.

 

[Justo Miranda]

As a history student rather than a scientist I am always puzzled by the attempts to predict what Aliens might be like.
On Earth only ourselves, an evolved ape mammal, have anything resembling a spacefaring civilisation. Yet Sci Fi invents Angels ranging from bug eyed big headed grey dwarves to flickering lights or gaseous clouds. I put this down to human imagination rather than any realistic guess at an advanced form of life.

Over the past forty years, science fiction writers have abandoned science in favor of sociology, psychology, and multiculturalism. But science has come a long way during this time discovering exoplanets, searching for technosignatures, and vastly expanding the habitable zone of all these new worlds.

In laboratories, most of the elements of life have been duplicated by artificial means, their inverted versions have been synthesized, and it is close to demonstrating that planetary geomagnetism influenced the chirality of all forms of terrestrial life.

Other solvent liquids (polar and non-polar) are also studied and simulations of their possible properties are carried out for the development of life forms under multiple conditions of pressure, temperature and radiation.

The creation of artificial life in the laboratory can occur at any time and then will come the study of behavior and evolution in simulated extraterrestrial environments.

Live ten more years and you'll meet ET.

https://www.amazon.es/Earth-Exceptional-Quest-Cosmic-Life/dp/154160296X

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUhK8QJH8Lo

 

[Foo Fighter]

Circular, which revolution are we on now?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Circular, which revolution are we on now?

Between the fifth and sixth mass extinctions, everything will depend on the size of the next asteroid or how close the supernova is, wait and see.

 

[Michel Van]

Circular, which revolution are we on now?

Between the fifth and sixth mass extinctions, everything will depend on the size of the next asteroid or how close the supernova is, wait and see.

our civilisation is consider as mass extinction event in regard how many animal plants went extinct true human hands!

I hope cats build a better civilisation. once we went extinct in this event...