N035 Irbis-E specifications

[Veritas]

Hello, this is my first post here!

Recently, I have been searching around the internet to find info on this specific radar. Many of my questions have been answered but some still remain. Some sources claim 400km(3m^2) while other claim that this range is only in a cued search mode, normal search 200km. Is there anyone who could give me a definitive answer? Also, how does it compare to its western counterpart, like the AN/APG-82 (V)1?

Thanks,
Robin

 

[Veritas]

I forgot to say, if you have any good info on the N035, please dump them here, it’s very hard to find them by searching on google!

 

[Waterballoon]

I forgot to say, if you have any good info on the N035, please dump them here, it’s very hard to find them by searching on google!

Have you looked at this thread:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/niip-bars-and-irbis-series-of-radar-for-su-30-su-35.622

 

[Veritas]

Have you looked at this thread:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/niip-bars-and-irbis-series-of-radar-for-su-30-su-35.622

Yes, the problem is that some sources claim 200km in normal search, 400km in narrow FOV. While other just say claim 400km with no mention of radar mode. I’m trying to figure out if it’s 200km in normal search or more.

 

[Squirrel]

Yes, the problem is that some sources claim 200km in normal search, 400km in narrow FOV. While other just say claim 400km with no mention of radar mode. I’m trying to figure out if it’s 200km in normal search or more.

N035 Irbis has two paired Chelnok TWT's as part of the transmitt channel. When the TWT's work in the PPS-DO combat mode ( front hemisphere-further detection) , scan 10°x10°( 100 square degrees) with max possible detection range of 400km .If those TWT 's work in the normal search mode (PPS) scanning much wider zone,e.g 30x10 degrees ,so with the wider FoV but the max detection range is the same. So for the PPS and PPS-DO modes, there is max detection distance of 400km. TWT's can work in search mode also can lock-on then track/illuminate engaged target's after AAM/'s is/are launched in the given time sequencies.

 

[Veritas]

N035 Irbis has two TWT's. When the main TWT works in PPS-DO combat mode ( front hemisphere-further detection) ,it scans 10°x10°( 100 square degrees) sector but secondary TWT can work in the normal search mode ( PPS) scanning much wider zone. For the PPS and PPS-DO modes there is max detection distance of 400km. The main TWT always work in search mode but secondary TWT can lock-on then track/illuminate engaged target's.

Thanks for the info, where did you get this from? Would be cool to read more.

 

[Veritas]

N035 Irbis has two TWT's. When the main TWT works in PPS-DO combat mode ( front hemisphere-further detection) ,it scans 10°x10°( 100 square degrees) sector but secondary TWT can work in the normal search mode ( PPS) scanning much wider zone. For the PPS and PPS-DO modes there is max detection distance of 400km. The main TWT always work in search mode but secondary TWT can lock-on then track/illuminate engaged target's.

How come that it has so much more range than western radars when they have superior microelectronics, budget, signal processing and availability of technology?

 

[stealthflanker]

How come that it has so much more range than western radars when they have superior microelectronics, budget, signal processing and availability of technology?

Which Western radar ?

 

[Ronny]

Which Western radar ?

I guess he probably mean APG-77 (diameter of 1 m, so it is only slightly bigger than irbis-e)

 

[Ronny]

How come that it has so much more range than western radars

I think it depend a lot on aperture area.
Like if you compare AWG-9 or APG-71 with APG-83 then APG-83 will have shorter range despite being much newer. That because APG-83 is simply a lot smaller.
If I recalled correctly, Irbis-e has aperture area of 900 mm, for comparison, APG-81 aperture area is only 700 mm. Which mean Irbis-e has 65% bigger area.

 

[Ronny]

Recently, I have been searching around the internet to find info on this specific radar. Many of my questions have been answered but some still remain. Some sources claim 400km(3m^2) while other claim that this range is only in a cued search mode, normal search 200km.

Narrower search sector increase range because your dwell time can be longer, this is true for all radar, not just irbis-e

 

[Veritas]

Which Western radar ?

Well there isn’t really a US equivalent in terms of design, but I guess the AN/APG-82 (V)1 is on the the more comparable side of the spectrum.

 

[Veritas]

Narrower search sector increase range because your dwell time can be longer, this is true for all radar, not just irbis-e

View attachment 787438

Yes but it’s very rare to see other radars being advertised with their narrow FOV search mode. As far as I can tell, the volume search range of the Irbis is around 200km in a head-on engagement against a 3m^2 target, which isn’t really spectacular.
I think people tend to mix the ranges up, which is the reason why people think it has ”insane range”.

It would be interesting to know what the narrow FOV search range for modern AESA’s would be. Like a AN/APG-81 or 82.

 

[Ainen]

How come that it has so much more range than western radars when they have superior microelectronics, budget, signal processing and availability of technology?

It's a highly specialized feature (with range being secondary one, primary is ability to extend hard lock on VLO targets to proper BVR ranges), which both radar and plane was essentially designed around.
Beyond that - it's indeed nothing too spectacular(ok, swivel too, but this is arguably part of the same adoptation).

It would be interesting to know what the narrow FOV search range for modern AESA’s would be. Like a AN/APG-81 or 82.

General expectation is way less, all things equal. It's about raw emmited power, which AESA(esp. GaAs) aren't exactly spectacular at.

 

[Lepespi]

How come that it has so much more range than western radars when they have superior microelectronics, budget, signal processing and availability of technology?

In the dire situation of early century Russia they realized a domestic AESA was not really possible at that moment, so they decided to giga-boost their might PESA N011 Bars, the Irbis is basically this, new electronics, new power system (with way more peak power overall), new cooling, more modules, new hydraulic steering system, but it still a PESA, so multimode functions like Synthetic Aperture, look-down/shoot-down, ground scanning, jamming resistance are not on par with simpler/smaller AESA's like the RBE2-AA (Rafale), it still very useful for air-to-air and would perhaps outperform most competitors in the "main" function but lacking some finesse let's say (and delaying their entry to the AESA world of course, which is another big downside, perhaps the biggest)

 

[Ainen]

(and delaying their entry to the AESA world of course, which is another big downside, perhaps the biggest)

Main qualitative threat for 2010s VKS, as seen from 2000s, is Raptor personified, and its ability to counter entire red order of battle from high altitude right over its home turf.

Massed procurement of S-400 regiments + su-35(Irbis) under GCI counters this better than early frontend only AESA ala rbe2 or an/apg63v3. If you're searching for stealth incursions by your main radar in wide angle, high power modes, in a non stealth jet - you're already asking for swift and sudden end.

IR systems, good as they're, are unreliable primary source of long range detection over Eastern Europe (overcast most of the year), it has to be radar.

And realistically Russian AESA deployment was mostly delayed by Su-57 delays, not because of Su-35. It wasn't achievable before mid-2010s(i.e. in a fitting schedule for su-35), phazotron tried and failed.

 

[stealthflanker]

Well there isn’t really a US equivalent in terms of design, but I guess the AN/APG-82 (V)1 is on the the more comparable side of the spectrum.

Yeah you need to have the numbers too for the APG-82. you cannot compare numbers with nothing. You can call "Normal search range" of 200 km in wide field and what "wide field" considering Irbis is not solid state but gimballed "non-spectacular" Compared to what Exactly ?

Now if you read Jay Miller's F-22 books you may found figure of at least 240 Km against 1 sqm (10.76 sqft). Now is this a wide field search ? or a Narrow one ? You find that out first then you can compare.

I think people tend to mix the ranges up, which is the reason why people think it has ”insane range”.

Yeah and i think people should really learn to use Radar Range Equation, to get real numbers then real comparison.

so multimode functions like Synthetic Aperture, look-down/shoot-down, ground scanning, jamming resistance are not on par with simpler/smaller AESA's like the RBE2-AA (Rafale),

How do you quantify this i wonder ? Considering that those functions are not really related to whether the radar is being conventional or active array. Jamming resistance too as given both AESA and PESA are still using the same good kinda Century old Monopulse angle tracking, AESA will still as equally vulnerable as PESA or conventional one.

and LD/SD.. This is more into signal processing side of the tools. not the type of the antenna. Like the merit here is for at least fighter radar is "SCV" (Subclutter Visibility) for pulse doppler or if using MTI (Moving Target Indicator) it would be MTI Improvement factor.. does being AESA help gaining more ? I'm not sure tbh. 100 dB Improvement factor can actually be achieved with PESA radar as early as 1978's with one example is S-300P's 5N63 radar. Or maybe as early as 1961's with AN/ASG-18.

The merit of Phased array radars are increased capability to track multiple targets simultaneously. This again related to Power aperture product.

 

[Veritas]

Yeah and i think people should really learn to use Radar Range Equation, to get real numbers then real comparison.

Well it’s quite hard to get all the necessary numbers from a specific radar to get a accurate estimate with these equations.

 

[Squirrel]

I guess he probably mean APG-77 (diameter of 1 m, so it is only slightly bigger than irbis-e)

AN/APG-77 has antenna diameter of exactly 3 feet or 91.44 cm.

Thanks for the info, where did you get this from? Would be cool to read more.

Info are from various articles and interviews ,e.g 'Take off.ru' ,editor A.Fomin.

http://www.take-off.ru/war-aviation
Famous video during flight test of the N035 Irbis made in 2006 on the prototype Su-30MK2 number 503 blue. Combat mode is 'PPS-DO' ( front hemisphere- further detection).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cieLN4_tn0A


Another video made in the time of MAKS 2009. On the sequence at 1:28 we can see how reflectors of the antennas of N035 Irbis and N036 Belka are very similar.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpvZoKHT0s&t=4s

 

[F-2]

Well it’s quite hard to get all the necessary numbers from a specific radar to get an accurate estimate with these equations.

We have them for bars. We could perhaps use what we know for Irbis and substitute/extrapolate.

 

[Squirrel]

''Принципиальным отличием РЛСУ «Ирбис» для Су-35C от предыдущих разработок стала установка ФАР на двухстепенной высокоточный электрогидравлический привод, который обеспечил комфортные условия при работе в режимах «воздух-поверхность», большую дальность обнаружения в боковых секторах, а также возможность работы с горизонтальной поляризацией излучаемого сигнала.''

''The fundamental difference between the Irbis radar system for the Su-35S and previous developments was the installation of a phased array on a two-stage high-precision electro-hydraulic drive, which ensured comfortable conditions when operating in air-to-surface modes, greater detection range in lateral sectors, as well as the ability to work with horizontal polarization of the emitted signal.''

Source: https://oborona.ru/product/kedrov-ilya/niip-imeni-v-v-tihomirova-otmechaet-70-letie-46651.shtml