Sukhoi T-75 LTS (CheckMate)

Geo said:
And... (down the thread): Not only is the T-75 alive, but there are big plans for it.
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The LTS really could either go the way of the MiG-21 and be a universal success or end up like the MiG 1.44 instead (I know neither are Sukhoi jets, lol). Truly, currently there are all possibilities on the table and only time will tell. Lots speculation and rumors echoing through the web.
 
Nx4eu said:
Slightly off topic, are those AL-51F1’s on the Su-57 to the right or just AL-41s with serrated nozzles? I know this is apparently an old picture, but I haven’t seen any serial Su-57’s with serrated nozzles.
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Given that this is the static display (IIRC constructed from a genuine non-flying airframe though) I'm unsure if these are genuine engines either way, could be non-functional display pieces as well. Either way though, yes these are meant to resemble the AL-51s. The 057 static display is meant to be an ideal representation of the Su-57, which includes the engines. Now the new export oriented engine also uses similar nozzles, so they are also representative of these too. Doubtful but not impossible that they will throw the flat nozzles on it in the future.
 
EmoBirb said:
Given that this is the static display (IIRC constructed from a genuine non-flying airframe though) I'm unsure if these are genuine engines either way, could be non-functional display pieces as well. Either way though, yes these are meant to resemble the AL-51s. The 057 static display is meant to be an ideal representation of the Su-57, which includes the engines. Now the new export oriented engine also uses similar nozzles, so they are also representative of these too. Doubtful but not impossible that they will throw the flat nozzles on it in the future.
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That’s interesting I’ve never noticed those were serrated all along. During the Zhuhai Airshow of 2024 however, 057 blue was out on static display and had the original non serrated nozzles. They must’ve swapped the nozzles out to give a closer representation of the Su-57E.
 
EmoBirb said:
The LTS really could either go the way of the MiG-21 and be a universal success or end up like the MiG 1.44 instead (I know neither are Sukhoi jets, lol). Truly, currently there are all possibilities on the table and only time will tell. Lots speculation and rumors echoing through the web.
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Undoubtedly yes, the internet is full of speculation and nonsense.
Nevertheless, the interview with Kondratyev in the X thread is a source that is hard to dispute. It once again reiterates a fact that has already been published several times in official UAC publications: two prototypes are being built, one flying and one non-flying.

In the past two years, Russia has significantly “muted” its release of information, whether officially or through controlled leaks. It has even become much harder to find clues in public procurement portals or in annual reports.

Overall, the situation is very similar to the Cold War, which, for many individuals in our Western civilizational sphere—accustomed to the colorful marketing geyser of all sorts of public and private entities—causes frustration, tension, and anger. These reactions (which I personally sometimes share) also stem from the flood of news coming out of the People’s China.

The LTS program aims to launch serial production of the T-75 in the 2030–2035 timeframe, targeting a market that Western competitors simply won’t be able to enter for economic and political reasons, so there is no real rush with the prototype. Personally, I would bet that assembly of the prototype is already in a very advanced stage.

As for the analogy with the MiG-21, it may indeed be very apt when it comes to the accessibility, simplicity, and operational friendliness of the T-75. The price-to-performance ratio could be unprecedented, considering that the aircraft can carry, for example, 2× Kh-69 and 2× Izd. 180 in its IWBs for strike missions, or (theoretically) 2× Izd. 810 and 2× Izd. 180 for air-to-air missions.

But as some colleagues—aside from the laughing emojis—never fail to add: until we see the prototype fly, it’s all just empty talk.
 
That is the million dollar question Geo, just when will the LTS prototype fly? It is just like watching paint dry waiting.
 
So what was so wrong with the previous design configuration to merit a redesign? And how much better is the new layout? I was under the impression that the first configuration generated flow to the tail sections at high aoa like the f-23, but the new configuration kinda changes that. Another question is; usually aircraft design starts with the wing design; they have a wing area they want to have for the size and weight of the aircraft; so does recycling the su-57 wing work on this instance?
 
Deino said:
I would rephrase the question better to „will we ever see it flying“?
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It shares most of its major mission systems with the Su-57; what makes you doubt it’ll ever move beyond the design phase, especially when Russia has been managing multiple important projects for three years with several breakthroughs made and no reports of major hurdles so far?

I say it’s got a decent chance of at least being built, why not just wait and see?
 
Deino said:
I would rephrase the question better to „will we ever see it flying“?
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Why is that a better question?
They have stated they are building 2.
One will be the flying prototype.
One will be a non flying test airframe.
This thread is about 4 years old....there is nothing out of the ordinary time frame wise.
 
So is that Su-75 real or not? another thread at another forum stated the picture came from the UAC's official account. Unless they are trolling again to release the photo for shits and giggles.
 
snne said:
I mean, designing airframes is one of Russia’s strong suits, and they’re just going to slap whatever avionics and engines are available onto the jet for the prototypes anyway.
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This is the thing that's always bothered me -

Why is that when China and Russia designs a new plane, slapping a random engine onto the air frame works out fine, but in any of the 6th gen speculation threads, this idea is deemed infeasible and too complex?

Would there need to be a whole lot of redesigning in order to go from a prototype on one engine and switch over to another for production? Do you always design with your ideal engine in mind (even if it doesn't exist yet) and then just fit the interim engines in sort of an adhoc way for testing? How long did it take for something like the J-20 to go from WS10 to WS15 when the WS15 became available?
 
Null said:
So is that Su-75 real or not? another thread at another forum stated the picture came from the UAC's official account. Unless they are trolling again to release the photo for shits and giggles.
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It's a real mock up known for years. Not a flying aircraft or prototype.
 
Reddington777 said:
How long did it take for something like the J-20 to go from WS10 to WS15 when the WS15 became available?
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I took an amount of time yet to be determined. Because the Chinese are seemingly utterly incapable of getting that engine to work despite how much time, money and STEM geeks they throw at it. Seems like engines aren't their strong suite. WS-15 is, similarly to AL-51, still in the development stage.
 
Deino said:
I would rephrase the question better to „will we ever see it flying“?
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That's honestly not a particularly intelligent question to ask, so I wouldn't say it's "better"...let me explain.

The Su-57, which couldn't benefit from one and a half decade of previous development and deployment of a indigenous stealth aircraft, took flight, completed an incredibly in-depth test program and has been deployed on combat missions successfully. It was a clean sheet, heavy, twin engine stealth fighter basically born out of the imagination and dreams of the engineers at UAC. It had a much harder time and succeeded regardless.

The LTS/T-75/Su-75, whatever you want to call it, starts from an infinitely more advantageous position. Not only is there now a considerable pool of knowledge and data related to the design, development, manufacturing, operation and deployment of stealth aircraft within UAC, the LTS is also a much simpler design and it can benefit from all the development work done for the Su-57 with regards to avionics, sensors, weapons and engines.

So no, the question not if it will fly, the actual question, which I already hinted at, is if it will be a successful aircraft or if it will fade into history as yet another prototype that flew a couple times and went nowhere. Like the MiG 1.44, or the YF-23, or X-32, you get the idea.
 
EmoBirb said:
That's honestly not a particularly intelligent question to ask, so I wouldn't say it's "better"...let me explain.

The Su-57, which couldn't benefit from one and a half decade of previous development and deployment of a indigenous stealth aircraft, took flight, completed an incredibly in-depth test program and has been deployed on combat missions successfully. It was a clean sheet, heavy, twin engine stealth fighter basically born out of the imagination and dreams of the engineers at UAC. It had a much harder time and succeeded regardless.

The LTS/T-75/Su-75, whatever you want to call it, starts from an infinitely more advantageous position. Not only is there now a considerable pool of knowledge and data related to the design, development, manufacturing, operation and deployment of stealth aircraft within UAC, the LTS is also a much simpler design and it can benefit from all the development work done for the Su-57 with regards to avionics, sensors, weapons and engines.

So no, the question not if it will fly, the actual question, which I already hinted at, is if it will be a successful aircraft or if it will fade into history as yet another prototype that flew a couple times and went nowhere. Like the MiG 1.44, or the YF-23, or X-32, you get the idea.
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UAC expects an export market for up to 300 aircraft. A realistic forecast.
 
EmoBirb said:
I took an amount of time yet to be determined. Because the Chinese are seemingly utterly incapable of getting that engine to work despite how much time, money and STEM geeks they throw at it. Seems like engines aren't their strong suite. WS-15 is, similarly to AL-51, still in the development stage.
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That's unfortunate. And I'm really quite surprised. All the Chinese folks I met in college were very sharp. Yes, I know that I was seeing like the top 0.1%, but still.
 
Scott Kenny said:
That's unfortunate. And I'm really quite surprised. All the Chinese folks I met in college were very sharp. Yes, I know that I was seeing like the top 0.1%, but still.
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The original WS-15 design from the pre-2017/18 era is not the same engine as the one developed afterward. They literally upped the requirements and redesigned it from the very beginning accordingly. As a consequence, the technologies from the scrapped WS-15 design eventually found their way into the WS-10C/C2 and probably the WS-10B3.

We've recently found out that the ultimate engine of the J-35, the WS-19, has already been equipping the PLAAF's J-35A LRIP batch, while the PLAN's J-35 still uses the interim WS-21 engine.
 
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snne said:
The original WS-15 design from the pre-2017/18 era is not the same engine as the one developed afterward. They literally upped the requirements and redesigned it from the very beginning accordingly. As a consequence, the technologies from the scrapped WS-15 design eventually found their way into the WS-10C/C2 and probably the WS-10B-3.
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Ah, that makes a LOT more sense.
 
snne said:
It shares most of its major mission systems with the Su-57; what makes you doubt it’ll ever move beyond the design phase, especially when Russia has been managing multiple important projects for three years with several breakthroughs made and no reports of major hurdles so far?
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It's all true, but it is also new digital architecture(along the lines of 5.5/6 gen), new set of flight laws, new testing campaign. All money.

While big ticket equipment may come from megapolis, airframe itself draws much closer on lessons from s-47, and as such a difference development path.
EmoBirb said:
The Su-57, which couldn't benefit from one and a half decade of previous development and deployment of a indigenous stealth aircraft, took flight, completed an incredibly in-depth test program and has been deployed on combat missions successfully. It was a clean sheet, heavy, twin engine stealth fighter basically born out of the imagination and dreams of the engineers at UAC. It had a much harder time and succeeded regardless.
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Su-57 was born with direct state order, state backing and financing; it even had an internal partner. It was tested when Russia had money and it was the focus, so when India bailed out - no one cared.
Su-75 is a private side project, only partially embraced by the government.
 
Ainen said:
Su-75 is a private side project, only partially embraced by the government.
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In Russia, many things are arranged somewhat differently than in the West. And something else too.

If a project is launched by order of the state, it goes through a number of procedures, including those related to the allocation of funding, its inclusion in the state budget, a description of the project, why it is needed, its place in the structure of the armed forces, and much more. At the same time, the financing of any stage of it, such as the development and manufacture of various systems and subsystems, goes through public reporting, from which a lot of information can be obtained.

In the context of the confrontation with the West, in fact, not even a cold war, but rather a warm war, launching such projects along this path is rather stupid. The development of events in the world has been read for quite a long time, especially at the level of the Russian leadership. I can assume that this project was decided to be carried out differently and presented as a private initiative of the company. It would be nice if the company decided to develop an air taxi or something similar on its own. But a modern fighter jet, in Russia, privately, and even in the current conditions? No!

This project is most likely not a private initiative at all, or at least not only private. In my opinion, this project has a high probability of successful implementation, both on the world stage and as part of the Russian Aerospace Forces. However, in the latter, I assume that it will, for the most part, be presented in an unmanned version.
 
AGS-1787 said:
So what was so wrong with the previous design configuration to merit a redesign? And how much better is the new layout? I was under the impression that the first configuration generated flow to the tail sections at high aoa like the f-23, but the new configuration kinda changes that. Another question is; usually aircraft design starts with the wing design; they have a wing area they want to have for the size and weight of the aircraft; so does recycling the su-57 wing work on this instance?
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From the Sukhoi's book:
"As part of additional computational studies and wind tunnel tests at TsAGI concerning stability and controllability, it was found that the previously coordinated aerodynamic configuration could be improved to enhance the aircraft’s maneuverability characteristics. Between August and October 2021, a series of supercomputer calculations were carried out to determine the optimal aircraft configuration. A total of 54 design variants were analyzed and confirmed through model testing in TsAGI’s wind tunnel. On December 30, 2021, M.Yu. Strelets approved all layout configurations for the aircraft with enhanced maneuverability characteristics, which remain current to this day."
 
Geo said:
From the Sukhoi's book:
"As part of additional computational studies and wind tunnel tests at TsAGI concerning stability and controllability, it was found that the previously coordinated aerodynamic configuration could be improved to enhance the aircraft’s maneuverability characteristics. Between August and October 2021, a series of supercomputer calculations were carried out to determine the optimal aircraft configuration. A total of 54 design variants were analyzed and confirmed through model testing in TsAGI’s wind tunnel. On December 30, 2021, M.Yu. Strelets approved all layout configurations for the aircraft with enhanced maneuverability characteristics, which remain current to this day."
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I did wonder whether that is sustained turn or take-off handling or cruise efficiency. I'm somehow under the impression that Russian use of 'manoeuvrability' isn't limited to dogfight maneouvres, but is a more inclusive concept. Is this correct?
 
When people talk about "private" ventures, I feel like people forget that many things in Russia, like certain major defense conglomerates, are in fact partially or wholly owned by the state.
 
lastdingo said:
But it’s a pity that the model is based on the 2021 design
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That and the transition between fuselage and wing is way to abrupt. It's smoother on the actual aircraft (in actuality the mock up, of course). It's not terrible, but not exceptional either. I for one wait for Hobby Master diecast models of the aircraft to come out.
 
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Can't wait for this thing to take flight. If it looks like the latest desk model it takes first place in best looking 5th gen.

In alternative reality, Boeing x-32 won, Marines dropped out early due to Boeing not able to meet its take off landing requirements, and Boeing redesign a slimmer x-32 closer to a combination of its ATF design and T-75.
 
lastdingo said:
"Sputnik 3DLabs has 3D-printed a 1/144 scale model of the Su-75 Light Fighter jet. The kit includes four camouflage paint mask sets: Russian Naval Aviation, Classic Demonstrator, Iranian Air Force, and UAE Air Force. But it’s a pity that the model is based on the 2021 design."

View attachment 788162View attachment 788163View attachment 788164

https://twitter.com/x/status/1978467242057630141
View: https://x.com/HEMemarian/status/1978467242057630141
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The B-21 in the background of the cover art :(
 
donnage99 said:
Can't wait for this thing to take flight. If it looks like the latest desk model it takes first place in best looking 5th gen.
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Unsure if they count as desk models, but these are some of the most recent models.

T-75D dual seater
T-75S single seater
T-75B unmanned (looks positively alien)

G1ckP68WcAAtH6c.jpeg
GT1hL-0WAAEAGwG.jpg
PXL_20230816_081042437-1024x771.jpg

In my opinion the simple fact that such variants are even thought about, thus possibly considered during the development of the regular Su-75, is a positive indicator for a vested interest in the possible future of the platform. Meaning they think much further ahead than just "design aircraft, bring aircraft to market, ???, profit. Huh, what's next? We didn't think we were getting this far to begin with, lol, xaxaxa."
 

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