Type 31 and Variants - NEWS

Of note is that the port side only has one mission bay opening abreast the hanger the amidships one shown in the artwork has been omitted.

The ship has now been moved onto the barge today.

I think you will find that Type 31 artwork has shown only one portside opening from the early days. Most views are of the starboard side and folks happily assumed the other side to be the same as was the AH140.
 
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Yes, there's a typo in the description. Should read two to starboard and one to port. And its on a grey background for some reason.
 
A lot has been discussed around the frigate's lack of sonar capability, so I have a couple of questions.

Is the bow dome solid steel, as I've seen claimed? That meaning that there's no space reserved for a bow-mounted sonar system.

What kind of search/detection capability does the small towed-array for the torpedo defence system offer? Could it be used for anything outside of torpedo defence, or is it entirely limited to that one mission?

Is there space for a containerised TAS to be fitted? If so, where could they put it?
 
Solid steel bow dome: hell no
Bow sonar: see Type 31 Miecznik which has one
UK SSTD: for detection and countermeasure deployment against torpedo's. Not submarines.
TAS: Type 31 Miecznik allows for CAPTAS 2 under flight deck
 
It's not solid in the sense of being a lump of steel, but it clearly is solid in the sense of not having a rubber acoustic window.

The challenge of backfitting a sonar would be two-fold. First, finding room for the sonar equipment--it's not just the array in the dome, there's a bunch of power equipment, amplifiers, signal processors, and so forth. Second, getting self-noise from the ship's own machinery down to a level that it doesn't mask the targets. The first is doable, given that other Arrowheads do have sonar. The second is much harder, since it entails fundamental changes to the machinery -- rafting the diesels, enclosing them, maybe changing the propellers.

Torpedo detection sonar is highly specialized high-frequency passive sonar. It's listening for the the rather distinctive sound of torpedo propeller blades. It's not going to be useful for detecting the lower frequency tones that an actual sub would produce.

Not sure quite sure what the stern arrangements are in the RN ships. There might be a boat ramp that would complicate putting a sonar there?
 
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Not sure quite sure what the stern arrangements are in the RN ships. There might be a boat ramp that would complicate putting a sonar there?
No boat ramp on T31

The frustrating thing is that the RN will have enough new S2150 bow sonars for all 8 x T26 and 5 x T31...with 1 or 2 spare...because they've ordered 8 new for T26 and are fitting S2150 on all ASW T23...

They're also going to end up with at least 3 full Sonar 2087 (CAPTAS 4) sets with no home...
 
No boat ramp on T31

The frustrating thing is that the RN will have enough new S2150 bow sonars for all 8 x T26 and 5 x T31...with 1 or 2 spare...because they've ordered 8 new for T26 and are fitting S2150 on all ASW T23...

They're also going to end up with at least 3 full Sonar 2087 (CAPTAS 4) sets with no home...
Could those remaining systems be containerised and swapped between the Type 31s?
 
I'm afraid not. S2150 needs the bow sonar dome and Sonar 2087 is rather big....needs a full installation
Rather surprised as the T31 is easily over a 1,000 tons larger than the T23, but as diesels not silenced so if S2150 were fitted expect unlikely to be effective and to be noted the T31 has zero capability to threaten or attack a sub with ship or helicopter launched LWTs as none fitted, classifying T31 as a frigate to me a gross exaggeration due to the limited amount funding provided for kitting it out.
 
It's not solid in the sense of being a lump of steel, but it clearly is solid in the sense of not having a rubber acoustic window.

The internet comments he was referring to, were about a solid lump of steel like a pre-dreadnought ramming bow.

Not sure quite sure what the stern arrangements are in the RN ships. There might be a boat ramp that would complicate putting a sonar there?

No boat ramp.
The challenge of backfitting a sonar would be two-fold. First, finding room for the sonar equipment--it's not just the array in the dome, there's a bunch of power equipment, amplifiers, signal processors, and so forth. Second, getting self-noise from the ship's own machinery down to a level that it doesn't mask the targets. The first is doable, given that other Arrowheads do have sonar. The second is much harder, since it entails fundamental changes to the machinery -- rafting the diesels, enclosing them, maybe changing the propellers.

Allowance for a future hull mounted sonar was supposed to have been in the T31 competition requirements. No idea if that made it through to the winning design. Also the original IH design allowed for onboard sonars with sufficient quietening measures to make them effective. The claim was they provide a NATO standard level of ASW whatever that means.
 
Allowance for a future hull mounted sonar was supposed to have been in the T31 competition requirements. No idea if that made it through to the winning design. Also the original IH design allowed for onboard sonars with sufficient quietening measures to make them effective. The claim was they provide a NATO standard level of ASW whatever that means.

Worth noting as well that the Danes have put sonar on the Absalon Class in the form of the Atlas ASO-94 medium range hull mounted sonar...but are now also fitting ACTAS low frequency towed arrays to the 2 Absalon's for full ASW work. Both the Absalon's are well known for not being 'quiet' ships, having no quietening measures built in, and have the same hullform as the Iver Huitfeldt's and Type 31.

If the Danes could manage it...I don't see why the RN couldn't...or at least leave space for it. The lack of a bow mounted sonar dome seems daft in the extreme, particuarly as we have probably the most advanced HMS, S2150, in abundance...even T45 has a mine avoidance sonar...
 
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/sco...ild-frigates-for-sweden-and-denmark/#comments
https://www.ft.com/content/c84e2df3-2cc0-453c-9f11-b1db1ba99b28
According to sources, a deal to build three Type 31 frigates for Denmark is 'very close, almost nailed on', whilst a potential deal for 4 Type 31 frigates for Sweden is proceeding positively, but with close competition from the French FDI. The Danish deal is expected to be announced within the month!

Is there potential for a few extra ships for the RN to take advantage of lower prices due to economies of scale?
 
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There’s mixed variations of the Swedish plan being reported, including
1) Type 31 based hulls with full build and kit out by Babcock at Rosyth
2) Type 31 hulls built in Rosyth but with local fit out in Sweden
3) New design hull, with detailed engineering by Babcock using T31 systems, hulls built in Rosyth and fitted out in Sweden

#3 seems to have been the original plan, with a shift towards #2 in the interests of speed. If the drift continues to #1, with a desire for a fully MOTS, minimum change solution, then one could see the improved sensor fit and AAW capability of FDI swing the decision.
 
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According to sources, a deal to build three Type 31 frigates for Denmark is 'very close, almost nailed on', whilst a potential deal for 4 Type 31 frigates for Sweden is proceeding positively, but with close competition from the French FDI. The Danish deal is expected to be announced within the month!
The T26 in Norway made complete sense, but didn't the Danes and Swedes looks for AAW warships ?
T31 makes 0 sense imo
 
The T26 in Norway made complete sense, but didn't the Danes and Swedes looks for AAW warships ?
T31 makes 0 sense imo
However, the Indonesian variant of the 31 is to have 64 VLS tubes for a mixture of missiles, while the Polish one will have a 31 cell MK 41, not to mention the parent Danish AAW design.
Not saying it would be the perfect fit for them, or that they may want more capabilities, might just depend on price and delivery.
 
Denmark has hit a problem with the Ivar Huitfeldt class and the recommendation by Danish Navy chiefs is to just replace the ships rather than fix through upgrade.

Arguably new Ivar Huitfeldt-like ships using Type 31....actually Arrowhead based on the Ivar Huitfeldt, is a strong contender. Essentially a revised version with new CMS, though the possibility exists for a switch to PAAMS and Aster missiles to reduce reliance on America.
 
Denmark has hit a problem with the Ivar Huitfeldt class and the recommendation by Danish Navy chiefs is to just replace the ships rather than fix through upgrade.

Arguably new Ivar Huitfeldt-like ships using Type 31....actually Arrowhead based on the Ivar Huitfeldt, is a strong contender. Essentially a revised version with new CMS, though the possibility exists for a switch to PAAMS and Aster missiles to reduce reliance on America.
Is the production line for PAAMS still active for new construction? What would be the unit cost along with modifying the design to accommodate it? Will the midships position take the larger Sylver tubes for the Aster 30 or just stick with 15's?
 
Depending on when Danish ships would arrive, perhaps we can hook them into the CAMM family. Deliver the ships with Mk41 and CAMM/CAMM-ER, before delivering CAMM-MR as a long-range air defence system. There'd be a slight delay, but it wouldn't be the first time the Danes had waited to receive their long-range interceptors.

Delivering the ships to be fitted with the Sylver system is also a possible move, though that comes with lower numbers of missiles per ship.
 
Is the production line for PAAMS still active for new construction?
Honestly don't know, but we do know FLAADS is in production and that has a lot of PAAMS in it. Isn't PAAMS in the new Italian ships?
What would be the unit cost along with modifying the design to accommodate it?
Don't ask me lad! Ask the bidder.
Will the midships position take the larger Sylver tubes for the Aster 30 or just stick with 15's?
I'd have thought since the mk41 was long enough for SM-2 IIIA it ought to be enough space for Sylver with Aster-30NT
 
I'd have thought since the mk41 was long enough for SM-2 IIIA it ought to be enough space for Sylver with Aster-30NT
There should absolutely be enough space depth-wise - the ships are built to carry strike-length Mk41 cells, which are almost 7 metres long, so the 5 metre long Sylver A50 should be perfectly fine, potentially even better from a space perspective.
 
There should absolutely be enough space depth-wise - the ships are built to carry strike-length Mk41 cells, which are almost 7 metres long, so the 5 metre long Sylver A50 should be perfectly fine, potentially even better from a space perspective.

Would have thought that in the unlikely even of them selecting Sylver that the A70NG would be the one chosen....Denmark has wanted a Tomahawk like capability in the past.
 
UK won this becomes we're offering Norwegian personnel the option or serving in RN Type 26s for familiarisation.
English familiarity is very high among adult Norwegians so unlike say French there is far less of a language barrier.
And of course, the UK has had both interests in Norway and alliance with them for a long time. Being literally 'just over the North Sea' from each other.
 
Would have thought that in the unlikely even of them selecting Sylver that the A70NG would be the one chosen....Denmark has wanted a Tomahawk like capability in the past.
A70-NG I assume will be slightly longer than strike-length Mk41 (7 metres compared to 6.7 metres), so I'm unsure as to whether that extra 0.3 metres is manageable. It seems to me as though it should be, but I'm not familiar with the platform.

Is there a firm date as to when A70-NG is expected to enter service? The upcoming Italian cruiser/destroyers will operate a split load of A50 and standard A70, rather than the single type. I've heard of little in the way of progress for the system. It may be that if the Danish ships enter service, the A70-NG simply won't be ready.
 
Is the production line for PAAMS still active for new construction? What would be the unit cost along with modifying the design to accommodate it? Will the midships position take the larger Sylver tubes for the Aster 30 or just stick with 15's?
https://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda-track-its-acceleration-aster-missile-production
According to the French, Aster production should hit 300/annum by 2028.

WRT Aster 15, there's not much point opting for Aster 15 if you're already installing CAMM mushroom farms.
 
Isn't PAAMS in the new Italian ships?
Italy

16 A70 in Giovanni delle Bande Nere and Domenico Millelire (PPA Full)
16 A70 in Paolo Thaon di Revel + Francesco Morosini when they refit from PPA Light to PPA Full
16 A70 in the two new PPA Light+ ordered to replace the two PPA Light+ sold to Indonesia
16 A50 in Spartaco Schergat and Emilio Bianchi (FREMM-GPe)
16 A50 in Bersagliere and ? (FREMM Evo)

France
16 A50 in the four Amiral Ronarc'h/FDI

Exports
16 A70 in Brawijawa and Prabu Siliwangi, the two Indonesian PPA Light+
16/24/32* A50 in the four Kimon/FDI HN for Greece

I'll be very surprised if PAAMs isn't in the EPC/MMPC patrol corvettes, though perhaps only as Aster 15.

* 32 is the eventual target, I've seen both 16 and 24 for the 'as delivered' standard.
 
Is the production line for PAAMS still active for new construction? What would be the unit cost along with modifying the design to accommodate it? Will the midships position take the larger Sylver tubes for the Aster 30 or just stick with 15's?

There isn't really a 'production line' for PAAMS, per se.

PAAMS itself is just an AAW system, best described as a weapon control system that then fits into a chosen CMS suite. On the Horizon-class destroyers, that was SADOC 3 for the Italians, and for the French I believe the CMS used was called SEIS? And then CMS-1 for the Type 45's.

With that being said, as a software, the original PAAMS on the ten Horizon/T45 DDGs is 'relatively' outdated (in a very loose sense of the word - still a very capable system, but dated), and I would expect any new dedicated AAW ship to be fitted with PAAMS-NG, which is the newer system intended to take advantage of upcoming munitions (initially Aster 30 B1NT, but then also leaving growth room open for other effectors like the prospective 'Aquila') and sensors. It is expected to go to sea for the first time in 2027, when the first Horizon-class DDG to undergo their upcoming MLU - Andrea Doria (D 553) does her post-refit trials and is re-delivered to the Marina Militare. It will also to equip the upcoming Italian destroyers under the DDX program.

There is also a question of what scale of AAW capability you're shopping for. PAAMS is meant to be a full area AAW system for destroyers that have to provide fleet air defense, and hence has been installed only on ships performing that role. The more common capability among frigates is the reduced-scale SAAM (Surface-to-Air Anti-Missile) - which is meant for a self-defense and local air defense capability for frigates and carriers using Aster 15, though the FREDA (Air defense variant FREMM for the MN) run a variant that is a bit more capable to take advantage of their ability to employ Aster 30. The Italians also have a variant known as SAAM-ESD (Extended Self Defence) that they had developed for their frigates, which were designed with a more powerful radar suite than their French counterparts in order to better employ Aster 30 in an escort role. It exists in both the original variant for SADOC 3 and an improved variant (SAAM-ESD++) for SADOC 4 employed by the PPA (and to be employed by the FREMM-EVO).

Given the medium-range capability of the Iver Huitfeldt's the Type 31 would be replacing, depending on what the Danish Navy is looking for either SAAM-ESD or PAAMS-NG could apply. In any case, either variant is certainly applicable depending on the sensor suite they opt for. Compared to their existing design, it would really just be a case of opting for a suitable replacement for APAR Block 1 to datalink with Aster 15/30, as they could easily just replace the SMART-L with the newer SMART-L MM/N (which is effectively what the Horizon program does - S-1850M is being replaced by SMART-L MM/N), if they still want something with that capability. The difficulty would primarily arise in whether or not there is an issue integrating SAAM-ESD/PAAMS within their preferred CMS, and if they have a preferred CMS to work with in the first place (presently they have standardized on Terma's C-Flex).
 
There isn't really a 'production line' for PAAMS, per se.

PAAMS itself is just an AAW system, best described as a weapon control system that then fits into a chosen CMS suite. On the Horizon-class destroyers, that was SADOC 3 for the Italians, and for the French I believe the CMS used was called SEIS? And then CMS-1 for the Type 45's.

With that being said, as a software, the original PAAMS on the ten Horizon/T45 DDGs is 'relatively' outdated (in a very loose sense of the word - still a very capable system, but dated), and I would expect any new dedicated AAW ship to be fitted with PAAMS-NG, which is the newer system intended to take advantage of upcoming munitions (initially Aster 30 B1NT, but then also leaving growth room open for other effectors like the prospective 'Aquila') and sensors. It is expected to go to sea for the first time in 2027, when the first Horizon-class DDG to undergo their upcoming MLU - Andrea Doria (D 553) does her post-refit trials and is re-delivered to the Marina Militare. It will also to equip the upcoming Italian destroyers under the DDX program.

There is also a question of what scale of AAW capability you're shopping for. PAAMS is meant to be a full area AAW system for destroyers that have to provide fleet air defense, and hence has been installed only on ships performing that role. The more common capability among frigates is the reduced-scale SAAM (Surface-to-Air Anti-Missile) - which is meant for a self-defense and local air defense capability for frigates and carriers using Aster 15, though the FREDA (Air defense variant FREMM for the MN) run a variant that is a bit more capable to take advantage of their ability to employ Aster 30. The Italians also have a variant known as SAAM-ESD (Extended Self Defence) that they had developed for their frigates, which were designed with a more powerful radar suite than their French counterparts in order to better employ Aster 30 in an escort role. It exists in both the original variant for SADOC 3 and an improved variant (SAAM-ESD++) for SADOC 4 employed by the PPA (and to be employed by the FREMM-EVO).

Given the medium-range capability of the Iver Huitfeldt's the Type 31 would be replacing, depending on what the Danish Navy is looking for either SAAM-ESD or PAAMS-NG could apply. In any case, either variant is certainly applicable depending on the sensor suite they opt for. Compared to their existing design, it would really just be a case of opting for a suitable replacement for APAR Block 1 to datalink with Aster 15/30, as they could easily just replace the SMART-L with the newer SMART-L MM/N (which is effectively what the Horizon program does - S-1850M is being replaced by SMART-L MM/N), if they still want something with that capability. The difficulty would primarily arise in whether or not there is an issue integrating SAAM-ESD/PAAMS within their preferred CMS, and if they have a preferred CMS to work with in the first place (presently they have standardized on Terma's C-Flex).
I think it’s the CMS choice that seems to be the crux of the issue. The Danes seem happy enough with the mechanical platform of T31, but always understood the systems integration on the IH’s was a mess. I’m struggling to find the source, but while they were built with the Mk41 installed in the ‘bathtub’ it was a number of years before it was actually integrated into the CMS, with initial testing just using ESSM in the Mk56 StanFlex modules. Similarly, while they chose Terma to provide the CMS, it was the Navy’s responsibility, rather than the vendor to handle integration, with a mix of new (Mk41) and cross decked (76mm etc) weapon systems.

It’s starting to seem that the Danish “T31” order, read alongside the Naval strategy update from earlier this year could be more akin to a “IH rebuy” with a better integrated CMS and possible cross decking and update of sensors. It would then follow that the existing IH hulls leave the SMART-L mount empty, replace APAR with something like a NS200 or SMART-S and move into the GP role outlined. If they left the Mk41 installed (and I don’t think there are any examples of it being moved between hulls) they you have a very well armed patrol frigate and potentially a very useful forward mounted “shooter” in a CEC enabled setup.

Edit to expand on the timeline;
-2012 - First hull commissioned
-2018 - FMS sale announced for ~ 50 SM2 rounds
-2022 - First in class firing trials for SM2
 
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while they chose Terma to provide the CMS, it was the Navy’s responsibility, rather than the vendor to handle integration, with a mix of new (Mk41) and cross decked (76mm etc) weapon systems.
Every time I read this I physically wince.

OTOH, if there's two systems a CMS should handle by default.
 

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