Is there any point to reserve/mothball fleet?

[johnpjones1775]

Most of the ships in the fleet aren’t remotely modern any more, even those that could be considered ‘modern’ they’re still so old and outdated that they’d require significant refit even if they were in pristine condition.

It’s clear that none of these ships are ever coming back into service. Even if we wanted to bring them back, I don’t think we have the yards, or skilled workforce to do so in any reasonable amount of time.

So is there any reason to even keep these ships in reserve? Even some of the ship classes other nations might be interested in require too much work to make them feasible purchases.

 

[TsrJoe]

Is there still an active reserve fleet where assets could be readied at short notice ? I thought such things were no longer current or viable ?

 

[johnpjones1775]

Is there still an active reserve fleet where assets could be readied at short notice ? I thought such things were no longer current or viable ?

Exactly, we have no ships that can be brought back on short notice.
That means there’s no reason to keep the ships we currently have in ‘reserve’.

 

[greedo]

There don't seem to be any warships in the three main reserve fleets: James River, Suisan Bay, and Beaumont. Most of the ships are support vessels from what I can find.

 

[DWG]

Looking at what's in the Reserve Fleet - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Reserve_Fleet#Ready_Reserve_Force - one word springs to mind.

Reforger.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Looking at what's in the Reserve Fleet - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Reserve_Fleet#Ready_Reserve_Force - one word springs to mind.

Reforger.

I wouldn’t trust Wikipedia to be too up to date.

 

[TomS]

Exactly, we have no ships that can be brought back on short notice.
That means there’s no reason to keep the ships we currently have in ‘reserve’.

At this point, it probably costs more to dispose of them than it does to let them just rust in place.

 

[DWG]

I wouldn’t trust Wikipedia to be too up to date.

Fair, so try MARAD itself:

"42 roll-on/roll off (RO/RO) vessels, including

• 8 Fast Sealift Support (FSS) vessels,
• 7 LMSR's (Large, Medium-Speed, Roll-on/Roll-off)
• 4 auxiliary craneships, and
• 2 aviation repair vessels"

"RRF ships are expected to be fully operational within their assigned 5 and 10-day readiness status and then sail to designated loading berths. "

 

[southwestforests]

Most of the ships in the fleet aren’t remotely modern any more, even those that could be considered ‘modern’ they’re still so old and outdated that they’d require significant refit even if they were in pristine condition.

I expect their electrical systems are inadequate for supplying today's equipment.

 

[Deleted member 29851]

I expect their electrical systems are inadequate for supplying today's equipment.

I really want you to explain why a bulk carrier built in the 70s has an inadequate electrical system. It’s not like the ship’s power draw increased while sitting in Baltimore Harbor.

 

[southwestforests]

I really want you to explain why a bulk carrier built in the 70s

That want will go eternally unfulfilled since my brain was thinking combat ships like Dad was on.

 

[Deleted member 29851]

That want will go eternally unfulfilled since my brain was thinking combat ships like Dad was on.

Well that doesn’t make any sense either. It’s not like they’d try backfitting EASR or FXR onto a Perry, that’s a multi-month refit using systems with multi-year lead times. It completely defeats the purpose of a Reserve Fleet, which is supposed to be a quick mobilization force.

 

[martinbayer]

As a habitual hoarder, I'd say, if you can afford it, keep it - you never know when it might come in handy...

 

[Scott Kenny]

While I'd generally say no, about the only thing I'd want to do is drop a CIWS or two onto each ship. So they probably have enough SWAPC left for that.

Otherwise, it's likely cheaper to let them rust in place than do all the asbestos and red lead abatements to scrap them.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Fair, so try MARAD itself:

"42 roll-on/roll off (RO/RO) vessels, including

• 8 Fast Sealift Support (FSS) vessels,
• 7 LMSR's (Large, Medium-Speed, Roll-on/Roll-off)
• 4 auxiliary craneships, and
• 2 aviation repair vessels"

"RRF ships are expected to be fully operational within their assigned 5 and 10-day readiness status and then sail to designated loading berths. "

And if iirc the last big drill/exercise they had to do so, was a pretty big failure. I think only like 40% were capable doing so.

 

[DWG]

And if iirc the last big drill/exercise they had to do so, was a pretty big failure. I think only like 40% were capable doing so.

That's rather a change from your initial "It’s clear that none of these ships are ever coming back into service." And even 40% of 48, so 20 large fast transports, ready in 5 to 10 days is rather different to "Even if we wanted to bring them back, I don’t think we have the yards, or skilled workforce to do so in any reasonable amount of time.

 

[johnpjones1775]

That's rather a change from your initial "It’s clear that none of these ships are ever coming back into service." And even 40% of 48, so 20 large fast transports, ready in 5 to 10 days is rather different to "Even if we wanted to bring them back, I don’t think we have the yards, or skilled workforce to do so in any reasonable amount of time.

I wasn’t talking about the active reserve.
I was talking about the old Ticos and OHPs that are in mothballs.

Almost like you chose to talk about a completely separate topic.

The USS Simpson for example. Decommed in 2015, up for foreign military sales, has been sitting somewhere for the last decade rusting away, and completely unsuitable for any service at all with out serious refit and maintenance.

Halyburton listed as ‘stricken, disposition pending’

 

[Deleted member 29851]

Almost like you chose to talk about a completely separate topic.

Then please specify that, because there's at least 3 different components to the "reserve fleet," half of which aren't even maintained by the DoD. Everyone in this thread thought you were talking about the NDRF.

 

[Kat Tsun]

Most of the ships in the fleet aren’t remotely modern any more, even those that could be considered ‘modern’ they’re still so old and outdated that they’d require significant refit even if they were in pristine condition.

It’s clear that none of these ships are ever coming back into service. Even if we wanted to bring them back, I don’t think we have the yards, or skilled workforce to do so in any reasonable amount of time.

So is there any reason to even keep these ships in reserve? Even some of the ship classes other nations might be interested in require too much work to make them feasible purchases.

The ships in the reserve fleet are the backbone of TRANSCOM so yes there's a point. There's probably no point in having reserve fleets of combatants or escorts when the median age of your workforce is 40 though. It's hard enough finding mariners for the cargo ships and those are like 40 or 50 people tops.

The long term endpoint of that trend is the U.S. no longer has a functional navy but it's a long way down and trends can change.

Is there still an active reserve fleet where assets could be readied at short notice ? I thought such things were no longer current or viable ?

It's all of TRANSCOM's sealift assets.

 

[NMaude]

Otherwise, it's likely cheaper to let them rust in place than do all the asbestos and red lead abatements to scrap them.

What about expending them as SINKEX targets?

 

[johnpjones1775]

Then please specify that, because there's at least 3 different components to the "reserve fleet," half of which aren't even maintained by the DoD. Everyone in this thread thought you were talking about the NDRF.

The title literally says mothball fleet.
My original post literally refers to ships that could theoretically be sold to other navies.

I was pretty straight forward with it.

 

[johnpjones1775]

What about expending them as SINKEX targets?

I believe there’s still clean up costs so you’re not sending a bunch of asbestos into the ocean giving fish and squid cancer or something

 

[Scott Kenny]

What about expending them as SINKEX targets?

As I understand it, it still needs to have the asbestos/red lead abatement done.

 

[Kat Tsun]

I was talking about the old Ticos and OHPs that are in mothballs.

They'll be sent to the breaker yards at Brownsville when there's room at Brownsville to accept new ships.

 

[NMaude]

They'll be sent to the breaker yards at Brownsville when there's room at Brownsville to accept new ships.

How about turning some of them into museum-ships?

 

[johnpjones1775]

How about turning some of them into museum-ships?

Sure, who is ponying up the money for that? I know I sure can’t.
I know Chris at navygeneralboard started the website to try to get big enough to eventually be able to do something like that, but I don’t think he’s anywhere near that point yet.

 

[Kat Tsun]

How about turning some of them into museum-ships?

Because the existing museum ships are already going belly up. It's a saturated market.

 

[sdmuleman]

There's quite a lot of uses that don't require anything particularly modern. Pretty much all the logistics support functions for instance. So in theory there's quite a lot of value in any sort of logistics support ship remaining in the reserve fleet. Combatant ships would be more problematics because of the issue of electronics/network systems obsolescence.

The problem of course is that rarely is a ship going into layup going to be in good material condition, and it only gets worse with time in reserve. Even so, it's better than nothing, and in a real wartime scenario there's likely more willingness to tolerate making things work. For instance, in in peacetime there's lots of requirements for things like safety systems that aren't actually required to make the ship work which could be treated as an acceptable risk in wartime.

Reserve ships also frequently serve as a spare part sources for active ships. Obviously usable stuff is generally harvested during decom, but there's lots of random stuff that's not worth taking off until needed.

 

[Deleted member 29851]

Reserve ships also frequently serve as a spare part sources for active ships.

I don’t think there’s much of any overlap between the current NDRF inventory and active ships.

 

[johnpjones1775]

There's quite a lot of uses that don't require anything particularly modern. Pretty much all the logistics support functions for instance. So in theory there's quite a lot of value in any sort of logistics support ship remaining in the reserve fleet. Combatant ships would be more problematics because of the issue of electronics/network systems obsolescence.

The problem of course is that rarely is a ship going into layup going to be in good material condition, and it only gets worse with time in reserve. Even so, it's better than nothing, and in a real wartime scenario there's likely more willingness to tolerate making things work. For instance, in in peacetime there's lots of requirements for things like safety systems that aren't actually required to make the ship work which could be treated as an acceptable risk in wartime.

Reserve ships also frequently serve as a spare part sources for active ships. Obviously usable stuff is generally harvested during decom, but there's lots of random stuff that's not worth taking off until needed.

I’m fully aware that in war time standards drop, but the real problem is simply the amount of work it would take to get them remotely functional. We don’t have the yard space or the work force to do so in a reasonable time during a conflict. In which case, as I said…is there even a point?

As for spare parts, sure but just remove any parts still usable and store them ashore , and inshore where salty water and salty air won’t degrade them nearly as much

 

[TomS]

How about turning some of them into museum-ships?

Once upon a time (2001-ish), I did some research on whether it would have been feasible to get a Tico into the Washington Navy Yard pier to replace USS Barry (which was eventually scrapped in 2016). IIRC, it was feasible, but would have required losing the sonar dome and maybe even some of the upper mast antennas, due to limits on both draft and air draft getting up the Potomac.

 

[Kat Tsun]

There's quite a lot of uses that don't require anything particularly modern. Pretty much all the logistics support functions for instance. So in theory there's quite a lot of value in any sort of logistics support ship remaining in the reserve fleet.

A lot of them are steam powered and this is contributing to TRANSCOM and MARAD's inability to find suitable mariners.

They need a replacement program that provides turbine (LM2500) and diesel (CAT/MaK) propulsion to get rid of the ancient CE and Pielstick plants. Those are too old to be useful anymore due to lack of spare parts and trained mariners. The Algols in particular are horrendous about this and they're getting dismantled over the next five years or so.

So no you actually do need modern ships. Oliver Hazard Perries would be easier to maintain than some of MARAD's dumpsters.