Jackonicko

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Our esteemed forum comrade ‘flateric’ made the last post in the ‘Dassault/SAAB/Alenia nEUROn UCAV’ thread on 3 July 2022. Since then, Dassault has launched a new UCAV programme to meet an Armée de l’Air et de l’Éspace requirement, for an unmanned collaborative combat aircraft or ‘Remote Carrier’ to accompany/augment the Rafale F5.



This is a new aircraft, and though it bears some resemblance to the nEUROn, a new thread is surely justified?



Dassault is essentially scrambling to develop its own unmanned adjunct, in direct competition with Airbus, who are supposed to lead the unmanned pillar of the FCAS/SCAF (Future Combat Air System/Systéme de Combat Aérien du Futur) programme (also known as the Zukünftiges Luftkampfsystem in Germany and as the Futuro Sistema Aéreo de Combate in Spain).



The French Ministry of Armed Forces is reportedly investing €128 million to develop this new unmanned combat aerial vehicle, which will be based on the Neuron demonstrator, and which has been referred to as the Neuron 2.0, or simply UCAS (Unmanned Combat Air System). (It will “benefit from the achievements of the nEUROn* program, Europe’s first stealth UCAV demonstrator.”). The original nEUROn flew 170 sorties from December 2012, and validated low observability, autonomous flight, internal weapons carriage, and integration within a C4I environment. As a result the new aircraft will not require a technology demonstrator to support its development.



The new aircraft will incorporate stealth technologies, autonomous control (with man-in-the-loop), and will have an unspecified internal payload capacity. It has been reported that the new UCAV will be powered by a single Safran M88 engine, the engine used in the (twin-engined Rafale) and will have a maximum take off weight of around 17.5 tonnes (similar to that of the Mirage 2000, and about three times the weight of the original Adour-engined nEUROn).



Sébastien Lecornu, French Minister of the Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs, announced the development launch of the unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) on 8 October 2024



The announcement was made at a ceremony marking the 60th anniversary of the French Strategic Air Forces (FAS) at the Saint-Dizier air base, in the presence of General Jérôme Bellanger, Chief of Staff of the French Air and Space Force (AAE), and Éric Trappier, Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation.



It was said that the new UCAS will complement the future Rafale F5 standard after 2030.



Eric Trappier said that: “This stealth combat drone will contribute to the technological and operational superiority of the French Air Force by 2033.”



Before the Paris Air Show, where the new aircraft was shown in model form, Craig Hoyle of Flight Global reported that General Arvind Badrinath, head of combat air for France’s DGA defence procurement body had said that: “A pre-development contract is ongoing. The next phase is to launch the development activity that will lead to a first prototype.”



Two models of the new UCAV were presented at Le Bourget, a full-size model on the Dassault Aviation stand, and a scaled-down model on the Ministry of the Armed Forces stand. These showed an aircraft with a similar configuration to the original nEUROn, a highly swept, tailless ‘arrowhead’ Delta flying wing with an overwing intake. It is bigger than nEUROn, and differs in detail, with a larger intake relative to the overall vehicle, different landing gear doors and a more robust-looking undercarriage.



Helen Chachaty, writing for BFM Business, reported that:



“This combat drone will then be fully integrated into the Future Combat Air System (FCAS): a ‘system of systems that will include a combat aircraft equipped with next-generation weapons, accompanied by a combat drone, as well as swarms of drones. It will be a set of equipment connected via a ‘combat cloud’, with networks on land, at sea, in the air, and in space.



This is where the new UCAS gets controversial.



Because the SCAF/FCAS agreement covered three pillars – the NGF manned fighter, an unmanned adjunct and the combat cloud. All three elements were to be procured by each of the three participating nations, with Dassault leading the NGF pillar and Airbus leading the Combat Cloud and Remote Carrier ‘pillars’.



FCAS/SCAF capabilities were always expected and intended to be rolled out incrementally, with manned-unmanned teaming being leveraged by existing fighters (including the Eurofighter and Rafale) in the early 2030s, leading to the full FCAS vision by 2040.



With France now pressing ahead with a separate, national UCAS (to meet the role initially expected for the FCAS ‘remote carrier’), the commitment of France to whatever emerges from the Airbus-led unmanned ‘pillar’ has been thrown into doubt. This could possibly be based on the Wingman concept shown in model form at ILA and Farnborough last year.



If the ‘boot were on the other foot’, and if Germany and Spain were to announce that they were developing their own core manned fighter, one can only imagine how loudly France would howl at the loss of orders (and funding) for the fighter being developed under the SCAF pillar led by Dassault!
 

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Given France's previous collaboration with other countries on nEUROn and then with UK on UCAS, I'm intrigued as to if/how they are using other countries' intellectual property in this "new" aircraft. e.g. Sweden designed the intake for nEUROn e.g. Italy designed the weapon bay etc. Did these countries just hand over their IP for Dassault to use in other projects?

Do you know what the €128m budget covers? That's only about 1/3rd of the smaller scale nEUROn demonstrator, so I guess it's just for initial studies?
 
If the ‘boot were on the other foot’, and if Germany and Spain were to announce that they were developing their own core manned fighter, one can only imagine how loudly France would howl at the loss of orders (and funding) for the fighter being developed under the SCAF pillar led by Dassault!
Given France's previous collaboration with other countries on nEUROn and then with UK on UCAS, I'm intrigued as to if/how they are using other countries' intellectual property in this "new" aircraft. e.g. Sweden designed the intake for nEUROn e.g. Italy designed the weapon bay etc. Did these countries just hand over their IP for Dassault to use in other projects?

A sure thing, Gentlemen, is that it is always refreshing to read how "France"'s/Dassault's actions are so well followed across La Manche by their fans. Thks for all these entertaining insights and infos.
 
I believe that a genuine Franco-German-Spanish co-operation would produce something great - which would be important for Europe more widely, whereas a solely French SCAF may be less impressive and less significant, if, indeed it is affordable at all.

And Eric Trappier never fails to deliver an entertaining soap opera!
 
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With France now pressing ahead with a separate, national UCAS (to meet the role initially expected for the FCAS ‘remote carrier’)

This is incorrect AFAIK and you are mixing up 2 very different platforms... UCAS <> Remote Carrier.

Remote Carriers are much smaller platforms, either expendable or recoverable. FCAS is developing both, with Airbus leading the design of the heavy recoverable RC ("RRC") - small enough to be air-launched by A400M, so likely 2-4 tons? And MBDA is leading the design of the lightweight - 400kg - expendable RC ("ERC").

UCAS designates much larger and more capable designs, closer to full size combat aircraft. This is NOT part of FCAS so France was free to develop its own design. Incidentally, Airbus DS were the first to reveal a national UCAS design for the German air force last summer, but the German procurement process is dragging its feet per usual. So not very surprising that the French MoD decided it couldn't wait IMHO.

P.S. This is the Heavy RC that Airbus has presented in the past... different kettle of fish from a full UCAS.

bsp_48936-jdw-19771.jpg
 
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I believe that a genuine Franco-German-Spanish co-operation would produce something great - which would be important for Europe more widely, whereas a solely French SCAF may be less impressive and less significant, if, indeed it is affordable at all.

And Eric Trappier never fails to deliver an entertaining soap opera!

Well, if you noticed, comedy is all the rage nowadays in Europe.
Belgium will buy more of that great "European project" F-35s in the middle of trade war threats from daddy.
Denmark will buy yet more, to defend Greenland ?...
Germany will pay daddy billions for F-35s to carry nukes they aren't even sure will still be there in 10 years (not even talking about being sure to ever be allowed to use them)...

So at this point of the great common European defense ideation, why would M. Trappier forbid himself from the fun of trolling these ardent Europeans with asking 80 % workshare of FCAS and launch a new UCAS on his own ? Who's kidding who ?
 
This is incorrect AFAIK and you are mixing up 2 very different platforms... UCAS <> Remote Carrier.

Remote Carriers are much smaller platforms, either expendable or recoverable. FCAS is developing both, with Airbus leading the design of the heavy recoverable RC ("RRC") - small enough to be air-launched by A400M, so likely 2-4 tons? And MBDA is leading the design of the lightweight - 400kg - expendable RC ("ERC").

UCAS designates much larger and more capable designs, closer to full size combat aircraft. This is NOT part of FCAS so France was free to develop its own design. Incidentally, Airbus DS were the first to reveal a national UCAS design for the German air force last summer, but the German procurement process is dragging its feet per usual. So not very surprising that the French MoD decided it couldn't wait IMHO.

P.S. This is the Heavy RC that Airbus has presented in the past... different kettle of fish from a full UCAS.
Exactly, and that Neuron 2.0 is to be used with the Rafale, and is part of process to keep the Rafale operationally viable up to when FCAS system eventually arrive in service in 2040 (?) , like F.5 and + standard.
Nothing to do with FCAS.

Apparently our France's/Dassault's "fans" don't mind European countries "investing" in F-35s to please daddy, yet don't hesitate to "howl" at France investing in her own (European too) defense industry. Never cease to amaze me.
 
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I think the Remote Carrier/UCAV distinction is going to be inherently messy. There are always going to be edge cases where different people place them in different categories, and not always for consistent reasons.

Perhaps better to think of them as a high/lo mix of capabilities in an unmanned platform.
 
Obviously they should be sending all their money to little Napoleon instead ;)

France is the only country to have actually pulled out of NATO
Trappier a little Napoléon ? You're giving him a too much of a compliment. Ben merde alors... two centuries later, and a Frenchman can still read "little Napoleon" as an argument from a Brit... That's quite an achievement.
But the point is, he is still European. And that's the point, these great discourses on the billions to be spend on a common European defense industry not dependent on the US one are just that, discourses and empty words. Trappier knows that very well, hence his trolling. All these countries rather bow down to daddy, humiliate themselves, in the hope that everything will continue as usual like during the last 50 years, and pay for US kits that some even build parts of without even the right to adapt their own stuffs without US DoD approval ,and without access to the sources, in the hope that daddy stays in NATO... It's hilarious.

I thought you were better informed in defense matters, France was a founding member of NATO, it pulled out of the integrated command structure in 1966 so to have French forces under French command only, but was still part of it, with common defense and agreements (such as article 5, for an example of one of the most important) still in place. France never left NATO.
It reintegrated that command structure in 2007 under Sarkozy (a complete stupidity, if you ask me...).
 
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Is it unrealistic to expect that France could stick to its traditions and, as a Plan B, independently develop a technologically pragmatic and cost-competitive stealth fighter—initially using technologies from the F5, but equipped with a larger radar and an even more powerful variant of the M88 T-REX—within the same weight class as the KF-21?
Paired with the Neuron 2.0, such a solution would be a rational one.
 
Dual wheel nose gear, and some odd lugs hanging off the sides of it.

Is that a carrier-compatible nose gear?!?



Lower unit cost than the likes of T-50 / M346 whilst being LO and assumedly having mission systems like radar, EW etc. seems a very aspirational target.
Helps when you're building thousands of them.




I think the Remote Carrier/UCAV distinction is going to be inherently messy. There are always going to be edge cases where different people place them in different categories, and not always for consistent reasons.

Perhaps better to think of them as a high/lo mix of capabilities in an unmanned platform.
Agreed.
 
I seriously doubt dassault alone could develop a genuine sixth generation fighter with all the necessary bells and whistles (like VCEs, just to name one example).
It doesn't appear anymore that anyone is still hell-bent on VCEs, and snecma isn't exactly bad at engines in any case.

And frankly not the first time some super futuristic engine technology suddenly gets sidelined; dual core engines anyone?
They already have the VLO stealth technology (Neuron)
This was a single off the shelf demonstrator, skipping on key parts of the technology. Even India can fly such a demonstrator, and country like Turkey is evidently further ahead.

Having x technology is applied when there's operational aircraft in series production, able to consistently show said qualities.

Being brutal, it's yet to be shown if most eu countries still can finish high end combat a/c development cycle nowadays, as they haven't done it for decades. "Having" VLO stealth isn't even a question.
 
Rafale B/C landing gear, so no.
On the other hand, if they're building it around Rafale gear, shouldn't the Rafale M nose gear bolt into the same places? (yes, plus a heavy bar to anchor the catapult to the airframe)
 

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