Power begins to return after huge outage hits Spain and Portugal

simply to much solar energy was pushing the frequency out of limit...
 
A modern society without mobile phones for several hours, thousands of people trapped in elevators without being able to communicate with the emergency services, young people wandering around in shock without understanding what has happened to their world, a city without traffic lights, elderly people without access to their apartment due to non-working elevators, dangerous manipulation of candles and old kerosene lamps, ambulances stopped without receiving instructions by the central control, ATMs out of order, stores that cannot accept payments by credit cards or mobile phones. I live in a privileged area of Madrid, just a hundred meters from the headquarters of the party in power and nothing worked in the surroundings either, not a police car, not an ambulance, not a bus, not a taxi, the emergency lights of the staircase only worked for thirty minutes. My wife was at the ophthalmological check-up when the computer stopped working and all the patients went out into the street because the emergency generator failed, the old lady who cleans my apartment had to walk twenty kilometers to return to her house on the outskirts of the city and a million people had to do the same yesterday.

Total systemic failure.

It doesn't matter if the cause is natural or provoked. Europe can no longer stand one more lie.
 

Attachments

  • 216671.jpg
    216671.jpg
    199 KB · Views: 5
  • nino-con-molinetes-de-colores-corriendo-en-un-parque-eolico-con-su-padre-siguiendole-UUF27130.jpg
    nino-con-molinetes-de-colores-corriendo-en-un-parque-eolico-con-su-padre-siguiendole-UUF27130.jpg
    71.1 KB · Views: 2
  • nino-sonriente-sosteniendo-un-molinete-de-juguete-junto-a-la-ventanilla-de-un-coche-con-un-aer...jpg
    nino-sonriente-sosteniendo-un-molinete-de-juguete-junto-a-la-ventanilla-de-un-coche-con-un-aer...jpg
    13.7 KB · Views: 4
Halcyon66 said:
Do you mean renewables?

Regards,
Click to expand...
Renewables are nothing more than stupid toys... what will happen when we have another Maunder minimum, another cycle of sunspots, another little glaciation?

Enough of the nonsense, in my country environmental legislation is killing people and no one pays for it!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-56085733

https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/field-study-shows-icing-can-cost-wind-turbines-80-power-production

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BjyvOWCLNo
 
Last edited:
The death number of pollution is highly debatable. Someone (need to find the source...) showed with a simple calculation, that smokers would have to die within an average time span of 3 month, if the same numbers of harm for NOx is applied to them as for exhaust emissions.

This was later called 'fake news' because the limits for cigarettes have been lowerd by EU rules in the meantime, but his would only elongate the lifetime of smokers by a couple of month...

I have also seen other statistics which showed a much higher death toll by solar energy, which surly depends it you live in a country were solar panels a primary used on roofs (quite dangerous) or on the ground.
 
Hmm ...

Train services in both countries stopped, leaving tens of thousands of passengers stranded.
It wouldn’t be possible to restart trains later Monday even if the power returned, Spain’s Transportation Minister Oscar Puente posted on social media.
Click to expand...

www.euronews.com

Spain and Portugal hit by sweeping power outage: Here is what we know

Spain’s Interior Ministry declared a state of emergency after a nationwide blackout paralysed much of the Iberian Peninsula. Work is still underway as technicians scramble to restore power. #EuropeNews
www.euronews.com www.euronews.com

While here in my country, the diesel-powered locomotives could still run in a large blackout, the question is, do they have a way to manually operate the track switches/turnouts/points which are now normally remotely actuated by a central dispatcher?
How many train crews have the required keys, et cetera, to unlock them and operate them the 1800s way?
What of the radio communications would remain; the locomotives are their own power supply, but what about the radios at dispatcher and Centralized Traffic Control offices?

I know railroads have contingency plans for such things but it has been something like a quarter century since I was involved with railroads.
 
Yesterday my country was the greenest in the world when the electricity grid worked for tenths of a second with 80% renewable energy, then the complicated compensation system could not control the oscillations between supply and demand and collapsed, creating historic chaos. There have already been some deaths, but yesterday we were the greenest country and an example for the rest of the world. We continue to close carbon power plants and destroy them so that they are not used again, and nuclear power plants for reasons of ideological blindness.
We have only been able to gradually reactivate the electricity system thanks to the nuclear energy supplied by France and, to our shame, we must also thank Morocco for its help.
 
www.politico.eu

Why did the lights go out in Spain and Portugal?

And what does it mean for Europe, its power grids and its electricity?
www.politico.eu www.politico.eu
Experts have previously said that the rapid expansion of wind and solar power is putting increased pressure on the Spanish grid, which is in need of an upgrade to handle record volumes of intermittent renewables.

But green energy was not to blame for Monday’s blackout, Meeus said, since the EU has in recent years enforced several sets of rules, like updated grid connection codes from 2016, to prevent renewable power generators from disconnecting from the network in a way that endangers the system.

“The nature and scale of the outage makes it unlikely that the volume of renewables was the cause, with the Spanish network more often than not subject to very high volumes of such production,” added Daniel Muir, senior European power analyst at S&P Global.

“There was sufficient conventional generation available, with nuclear, hydro, cogeneration and thermal technologies all on the system prior to the event and ... available to the operator,” he said.
Click to expand...

Regards,
 
Justo Miranda said:
Renewables are nothing more than stupid toys... what will happen when we have another Maunder minimum, another cycle of sunspots, another little glaciation?

Enough of the nonsense, in my country environmental legislation is killing people and no one pays for it!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-56085733

https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/field-study-shows-icing-can-cost-wind-turbines-80-power-production

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BjyvOWCLNo
Click to expand...
I'm sorry to hear that, but I have to point out that the blackout is not a new energy problem, but an inaction on the part of some people. Some people don't care about how new energy can serve the people, and have taken some irrational approaches. Renewables are certainly the way forward, but there are also a lot of uncertainties, so I think it's reasonable to reserve some thermal power generation in case it is not prepared. In my country, the proportion of new energy sources is gradually increasing, but a fairly large-scale thermal power generation system is still maintained. But it is unreasonable to deny the prospects for the development of new energy.
 
It's not a capacity issue. It's not a renewables issue. It's a grid-stability issue. The US Northeast blackout of 2003 was down to software, the 2003 Italo-Swiss blackout was down to poor understanding of load-shedding by the Swiss control room, etc.
 
The cause was unclear, with Portugal suggesting the issue originated in Spain and Spain pointing the finger at a break-up in its connection to France.


Portuguese Prime Minister Luis Montenegro said there was "no indication" a cyberattack had caused the blackout, which began at around 12.30pm local time yesterday.


Nonetheless, rumours circulated of possible sabotage, and Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said he had spoken to NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte.


Mr Sanchez said that the country had suffered a loss of 15GW of electricity generation in five seconds, equivalent to 60% of national demand. Technicians were working to figure out why that sudden drop occurred, he said.
Click to expand...
 
DWG said:
It's not a capacity issue. It's not a renewables issue. It's a grid-stability issue. The US Northeast blackout of 2003 was down to software, the 2003 Italo-Swiss blackout was down to poor understanding of load-shedding by the Swiss control room, etc.
Click to expand...
The large-scale new energy connection to the power grid not only affects the safe and stable operation of the power system, but also significantly affects the operation economy of the power system. After the new energy is connected to the grid, the conventional synchronous generator set is replaced by wind power and photovoltaic generator set, resulting in the reduction of the moment of inertia of the system and the reduction of frequency regulation ability. The grid-related performance standards of new energy equipment are low, and the frequency and voltage tolerance are poor, which is easy to cause off-grid problems. Due to the fluctuation and randomness of new energy resources, and the low immunity and weak support of power generation equipment, the effective consumption and safe operation of new energy are the world's problems.
 
SUPER=BUG said:
The grid-related performance standards of new energy equipment are low, and the frequency and voltage tolerance are poor, which is easy to cause off-grid problems. Due to the fluctuation and randomness of new energy resources, and the low immunity and weak support of power generation equipment, the effective consumption and safe operation of new energy are the world's problems.
Click to expand...
The last major UK outage did involve a wind farm going off line when it shouldn't have, it also involved a gas turbine power-station going off-line when it shouldn't have. It's not simply a renewables issue.
 
I was never affected in Central Scotland by the event in the UK, unless it was localized to down in some parts of England.
 
The issue is simply very old grid systems, that are constantly being upgraded when they should be replaced.

Having microgrids is the way forward, getting away from transmitting power 1000's of KM. The original design was one power station feeding an area, now with solar on residential rooftops and other renewables you have power feeding in from everywhere.

Australia gird is massive due to the sheer size of the country, microgrids would stop the cascade failures and limit downtime and restart.

I know of one solar farm here in the 400MW capacity that have been completed almost 2 yrs ago and yet still not connected to the grid, because the gird in that area cannot take it.

Supposedly a large battery system is incoming and should help balance the load.

Regards,
 
SUPER=BUG said:
Renewables are certainly the way forward,
Click to expand...
Renewables are the fay forward IF they are introduced in carefully prepared and thought-out plan - not in some chaotic haphazard dash to showel billions into green energy buisness pockets reduce carbon footprint at any cost.
 
Dilandu said:
Renewables are the fay forward IF they are introduced in carefully prepared and thought-out plan - not in some chaotic haphazard dash to showel billions into green energy buisness pockets reduce carbon footprint at any cost.
Click to expand...

100% correct.

Little forward thought and most of the time disastrous outcomes.

A pump hydro project here was initially budgeted at 2 bil back in 2017, is now closer to 12 and is at a standstill currently. No one is even putting a final cost up?????

A full audit had been done recently and numerous issues, mainly the rescue shafts were not up to spec and various training and certification were inadequate.

www.abc.net.au

Concerns over 'last resort' for trapped workers prompts further Snowy 2.0 delays

The trouble-plagued Snowy Hydro 2.0 project has been hit with another delay, as work stopped on two key tunnelling projects.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

reneweconomy.com.au

Another delay: Work stopped at all Snowy 2.0 tunnels over safety worries

Major pumped hydro project Snowy 2.0 is delayed again, this time due to worker safety concerns.
reneweconomy.com.au reneweconomy.com.au

Considerable other issues, all a total mess.

And guess what.................

NSW-owned Transgrid said on Tuesday it remained committed to delivering the EnergyConnect project that will create a new energy transmission line that will provide cheaper energy to people in NSW. Clough was a part of the consortium selected to build the project alongside partner, Spain’s Elecnor.
Click to expand...

www.smh.com.au

Snowy Hydro, other energy projects face cost blow outs after Clough collapse

Administrators are hoping for a quick fire sales process to get one of the nation’s biggest builders back on its feet and to keep delivering its suite of major energy infrastructure projects.
www.smh.com.au www.smh.com.au

Regards,
 
Renewables like Solar and Wind lack inertia of turbine driven generators ,they also quickly shut on and off , and we all rely on Gas ,coal and Nuclear to provide inertia so dimvits like Spain can play almost green for a day or two , Spanish ripple trough the grid disconnected them from French Nuclear power plants that could have stabilised them and half od Spanish hydro power was undergoing rutine maintenance so could not add the the inertia to the grid, its beyond time to charge renewable operators fees to inertia providers, same way like they cashed in CO2 cupons - you could literaly repurpose many old powerplants to gas and/or modify them to flywheel generator setup , you can literaly spin generators just for purpose of inertia not generating but actualy lossing energy but adding inertia to the system when needed , you need inertia these can provide that Solar and Wind lack.

But of course gullible are always taken care for by MSM -Cyber attack aka Russia did it.


https://twitter.com/x/status/1916871096151793891
View: https://x.com/energybants/status/1916871096151793891

GpoYGmcWYAAG5sj



www.en-former.com

Mammoth flywheel for Ireland’s grid stability | en:former

The rising share of generation accounted for by renewables repeatedly presents new challenges to grid stability. Sufficient storage capacity must be built to keep wind and solar power on tap. However, conventional power stations do more than just produce electricity independent of the weather...
www.en-former.com www.en-former.com


 
Last edited:
southwestforests said:
While here in my country, the diesel-powered locomotives could still run in a large blackout, the question is, do they have a way to manually operate the track switches/turnouts/points which are now normally remotely actuated by a central dispatcher?
How many train crews have the required keys, et cetera, to unlock them and operate them the 1800s way?
What of the radio communications would remain; the locomotives are their own power supply, but what about the radios at dispatcher and Centralized Traffic Control offices?

I know railroads have contingency plans for such things but it has been something like a quarter century since I was involved with railroads.
Click to expand...
I've seen places where the keys are kept on a big loop and the train crews hand off the keys at specific stations. On the move, no less!

But that was noted in the videos as being an unusual thing and not how it was normally done at all. Only done at those places because the track signals and switches were not automated.
 
Justo Miranda said:
Yesterday my country was the greenest in the world when the electricity grid worked for tenths of a second with 80% renewable energy, then the complicated compensation system could not control the oscillations between supply and demand and collapsed, creating historic chaos. There have already been some deaths, but yesterday we were the greenest country and an example for the rest of the world. We continue to close carbon power plants and destroy them so that they are not used again, and nuclear power plants for reasons of ideological blindness.
We have only been able to gradually reactivate the electricity system thanks to the nuclear energy supplied by France and, to our shame, we must also thank Morocco for its help.
Click to expand...
As,a German, I have to say, this sounds very familliar...
 
Grey Havoc said:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Britain hit by unusual power activity hours before Spain blackout

The UK’s grid operator is investigating unexplained shifts in electricity frequency on Sunday
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
Click to expand...
That is interesting. There was a 3 hour powercut very close where I live in Lancashire at 6pm on Sunday 27th to a "unexpected incident on the high voltage cable" (though where I live didn't lose power).

There doesn't seem to have been any unusual solar activity during the weekend that was flagged, but it sounds like something has been affecting the frequency.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I've seen places where the keys are kept on a big loop and the train crews hand off the keys at specific stations. On the move, no less!

But that was noted in the videos as being an unusual thing and not how it was normally done at all. Only done at those places because the track signals and switches were not automated.
Click to expand...
Those aren't the point keys, it's a token system to guarantee only one locomotive on a piece of track at a time.
 
southwestforests said:
How many train crews have the required keys, et cetera, to unlock them and operate them the 1800s way?
Click to expand...
In general train crews didn't operate the points, that was done by signalmen, who both knew what was scheduled and when, and were in contact with the rest of the network in order to react to changes.

There were still plenty of accidents, driving the change to automated controls and safety
systems, going all the way back into the Victorian era, eg the GWR's Automatic Train Control dating from 1906, and experiments leading to the German Indusi start about the same time.

There's no point in giving someone the ability to control a point if you don't also give them the information to know it is safe. It's like running an airport without ATC - it can be done, but only if there are minimal movements and a set of rules that everyone knows to follow.
 
Hood said:
There doesn't seem to have been any unusual solar activity during the weekend that was flagged,
Click to expand...
Two references I know about for that,
which people might be interested in,

Space Weather Prediction Center
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

Homepage | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center

www.swpc.noaa.gov www.swpc.noaa.gov

Spaceweather com. All rights reserved. This site is penned daily by Dr. Tony Phillips.
 
The following YouTube video may be of interest, with that BBC article mentioning,

However diversified and advanced Spain's energy mix is, the national power collapse at 12:35 on Monday required an enormous effort to get Spain back up and running.

The initial focus was to get the northern and southern power generating regions working again, which grid operator Red Eléctrica said was key to "gradually re-energising the transmission grid as the generating units are connected".

The risk lay in overloading the system by turning everything on at the same time and triggering another massive outage.

So everything had to be carefully phased for what experts call a "black start" working out as a success.
Click to expand...


What Is A Black Start Of The Power Grid?
Dec 6, 2022
A summary of the challenges with starting a grid back up from total collapse.
The grid is a little bit of a house of cards. It’s not necessarily flimsy, but if the whole thing gets knocked down, you have to rebuild it one card at a time and from the ground up. Restoring power after a major blackout is one of the most high stakes operations you can imagine. The consequences of messing it up are enormous, but there’s no way to practice a real-life scenario. It seems as simple as flipping a switch, but restoring power is more complicated than you might think.

Practical Engineering is a YouTube channel about infrastructure and the human-made world around us. It is hosted, written, and produced by Grady Hillhouse. We have new videos posted regularly, so please subscribe for updates. If you enjoyed the video, hit that ‘like’ button, give us a comment, or watch another of our videos!
Click to expand...

 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom