Ukrainian Air Force F-16

Ainen said:
During spring 2022, with VKS operating well over Ukraine, F-16 could've mattered.

Will they matter if Russia will intensify again in 2025?
Frankly, difficult to say. I personally consider the new gen SAM network (especially the relatively low key NASAMS) far more important for that case.

Though unlikely, doesn't seem VKS is any more enthusiastic about DEAD than in 2021.
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At the moment neither side crosses the frontline with its jets, the airspace is just too lethal even for aircrafts that come close to the frontline. So Ukraine uses its jets mostly as cruise missiles/drones killers. And this make them matter. They are very important for the defense of the ukrainian airspace.

kyivindependent.com

In historic record, Ukrainian F-16 pilot downs 6 cruise missiles in single mission, Air Force claims

For the first time in the history of the F-16 Fighting Falcon, a Ukrainian-operated jet shot down six Russian cruise missiles during a single mission in December, the Air Force claimed on Jan. 7.
kyivindependent.com kyivindependent.com

defence-industry.eu

Ukraine deploys French Mirage 2000 jets in combat, successfully intercepts russian missiles

Ukraine has officially deployed its recently acquired French Mirage 2000-5 fighter jets in combat for the first time.
defence-industry.eu defence-industry.eu

bulgarianmilitary.com

Confirmed: Ukraine’s F-16s run ELINT missions against Russia

Ukrainian F-16 pilot confirms jets perform ELINT missions, combat ops, and escorts in war against Russia, adapting Western aid to counter advanced air defenses.
bulgarianmilitary.com bulgarianmilitary.com
 
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My dear @Flyaway : Before some of our @admin have a a free run deleting further posts as if they were harvesting souls at Armageddon, can we have this Thread Header changed to reflect that it includes all western airframe donated to Ukraine? (I think that would be in line with the spirit of this thread).
Something like Ukrainian Air Force F-16 and Mirage (until further change).
 
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Josh_TN said:
VKS undoubtedly has a huge range advantage, and I cannot see the ZSU being able to alter that. The F-16s probably are by far the best A2A equipment they have operated, but coming in distant second place is still dead, even if it’s a huge improvement over MiG-29.

If they still have those ASC-890s and they are datalinked to the F-16s, they could perhaps briefly solve the radar problem (with a lot of risk to a high end, two plane force) but the AIM-120s range limits compared to R-37 is so stark as to make a successful AAM engagement almost hopeless. Certainly it would at a minimum have to be something of an ambush against unsuspecting targets or targets whose escorts were heavily jammed, or both.

What ever happened to those AWACS anyway? Never heard anything about them after the donation announcement. Did that deal never go through?
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IMHO, training is the big issue here, the time lag would help if they can get there.
 
Josh_TN said:
VKS undoubtedly has a huge range advantage, and I cannot see the ZSU being able to alter that. The F-16s probably are by far the best A2A equipment they have operated, but coming in distant second place is still dead, even if it’s a huge improvement over MiG-29.

If they still have those ASC-890s and they are datalinked to the F-16s, they could perhaps briefly solve the radar problem (with a lot of risk to a high end, two plane force) but the AIM-120s range limits compared to R-37 is so stark as to make a successful AAM engagement almost hopeless. Certainly it would at a minimum have to be something of an ambush against unsuspecting targets or targets whose escorts were heavily jammed, or both.

What ever happened to those AWACS anyway? Never heard anything about them after the donation announcement. Did that deal never go through?
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Weren’t Sweden going to supply them with some AWACS aircraft?
 
TomcatViP said:
My dear @Flyaway : Before some of our @admin had a a free run deleting further posts as if they were harvesting souls at Armageddon, can we have this Thread Header changed to reflect that it includes all western airframe donated to Ukraine? (I think that would be in line with the spirit of this thread).
Something like Ukrainian Air Force F-16 and Mirage (until further change).
Click to expand...
I didn’t create this thread the Mods did as it was split off from the main F-16 thread by them.
 
Wotan said:
Well, if the Ukrainian Air force is mostly destroyed, how come that they are still operating, and with relative succes?

euromaidanpress.com

Frontline report: Ukraine’s F-16s and Mirages are blasting Russian commanders with French smart bombs - Euromaidan Press

In just two weeks, Ukraine’s Western jets struck 19 high-value Russian positions, many housing field commanders.
euromaidanpress.com euromaidanpress.com

After three years, Russia still did not succeed in imposing air supremacy over Ukraine or at least in the frontline area. Even when on russian soil in Kursk, the ukrainian soldiers were in danger mostly from drones attacks, not russian attack jets or helicopters.
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Read my post all the way carefully. I said most of the original Air Force has mostly been destroyed…I didn’t say 100% destroyed. Lots of countries donated aircraft with Ukraine receiving at least 70 helicopters of various types, plus several dozen MiG-29s, F-16s and batches of SU-25s, Mirages plus Ukraine was given spare parts to get decommissioned aircraft flight worthy. And they were also given avionics and weapons upgrades, logistics, training and global intelligence including targeting information.

And please stop using “Europmaiden” as a source. They are not reliable nor subjective, it’s simply propaganda. As for air supremacy, no Russia can not just operate willy nilly due to SAMS and MANAPADs and NATO surveillance but they still manage to drop hundreds of Fabs a month along with using various other air to ground and air to air weapons.

According to pro Ukrainian ORYX Ukraine lost 157 aircraft. Some sources claim Ukraine had as little as 120 aircraft in 2022, others have claimed 270 to at most 300 operational aircraft. With likely 25% to 50% + of those needing maintenance at any given time. So even according to pro Ukrainian sources most of their Air Force has been destroyed, they are living off donations. -157 from 120 = -37 aircraft

Hence why F-16s and Mirages are quickly being delivered to compensate losses.
 
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Galaxy said:
Read my post all the way carefully. I said most of the original Air Force has mostly been destroyed…I didn’t say 100% destroyed. Lots of countries donated aircraft with Ukraine receiving at least 70 helicopters of various types, plus several dozen MiG-29s, F-16s and batches of SU-25s, Mirages plus Ukraine was given spare parts to get decommissioned aircraft flight worthy. And they were also given avionics and weapons upgrades, logistics, training and global intelligence including targeting information.
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What would be more right to say in this situation is that "a significant number from the aircrafts that the Ukraine had at the beginning of the conflict were destroyed" not that the Air Force has been "mostly been destroyed". An air force is destroyed when it ceases to be functional and to conduct combat sorties, which is not the case for Ukraine. In fact, the Ukrainian Air Force is at this moment in a better shape compared with the beginning of the conflict and with capabilities that it had not in 2022. And most of the pilots that Ukraine had at the beginning of the conflict are fine, with combat experience, and flying now better aircrafts then the soviet era remnants they had before. They are not being destroyed, but constantly growing in capability.


www.france24.com

Ukraine fires long-range UK Storm Shadow missiles into Russia, sources say

Ukraine fired British long-range Storm Shadow missiles into Russian territory for the first time on Wednesday, Bloomberg reported, citing an anonymous Western official. Another official confirmed the…
www.france24.com www.france24.com

www.eurasiantimes.com

Ukraine War: After ATACMS & Storm Shadow, Kyiv Could Finally Get 'Much Desired' Taurus KEPD-350 Missile

Ukraine secured two significant long-range missiles from its NATO allies in the last two years. These missiles enabled the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) to conduct long-range precision strikes inside Russia and shift the tactical dynamics of the war. The embattled country may now be poised to...
www.eurasiantimes.com www.eurasiantimes.com

My remark was that "it holds its own against a russian air force several times its size." It is to be remarked that most of the aircraft losses of the Ukrainian Air Force were at the airbases, to rockets and drones, not in combat with the Russian Air Force.


It is interesting to see what will bring the delivery of the AWACS to the Ukrainian Air Force. They could potentially gain the upper hand in the gathering of real time informations from the frontline area.

armyrecognition.com

Sweden Confirms Delivery of ASC 890 Aircraft to Ukraine to Strengthen Early Warning and Air Defense Network

Sweden Confirms Delivery of ASC 890 Aircraft to Ukraine to Strengthen Early Warning and Air Defense Network
armyrecognition.com armyrecognition.com

The russians mostly don`t use anymore their A-50 near the frontline after a series of catastrofal losses. And, anyway, the Mainstay is also a remnant from soviet times, with limited upgrades. It will not be on par with the more modern european AWACS supplied to Ukraina.
bulgarianmilitary.com

Ukrainian radars spot RuAF A-50 AEW&C after year-long absence

Ukraine detects Russian A-50 aircraft after a year, operating over Orlovska Oblast. Explore its role, losses, and significance in the Russia-Ukraine war in 2025
bulgarianmilitary.com bulgarianmilitary.com
 
Wotan said:
What would be more right to say in this situation is that "a significant number from the aircrafts that the Ukraine had at the beginning of the conflict were destroyed" not that the Air Force has been "mostly been destroyed". An air force is destroyed when it ceases to be functional and to conduct combat sorties, which is not the case for Ukraine. In fact, the Ukrainian Air Force is at this moment in a better shape compared with the beginning of the conflict and with capabilities that it had not in 2022. And most of the pilots that Ukraine had at the beginning of the conflict are fine, with combat experience, and flying now better aircrafts then the soviet era remnants they had before. They are not being destroyed, but constantly growing in capability.


www.france24.com

Ukraine fires long-range UK Storm Shadow missiles into Russia, sources say

Ukraine fired British long-range Storm Shadow missiles into Russian territory for the first time on Wednesday, Bloomberg reported, citing an anonymous Western official. Another official confirmed the…
www.france24.com www.france24.com

www.eurasiantimes.com

Ukraine War: After ATACMS & Storm Shadow, Kyiv Could Finally Get 'Much Desired' Taurus KEPD-350 Missile

Ukraine secured two significant long-range missiles from its NATO allies in the last two years. These missiles enabled the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU) to conduct long-range precision strikes inside Russia and shift the tactical dynamics of the war. The embattled country may now be poised to...
www.eurasiantimes.com www.eurasiantimes.com

My remark was that "it holds its own against a russian air force several times its size." It is to be remarked that most of the aircraft losses of the Ukrainian Air Force were at the airbases, to rockets and drones, not in combat with the Russian Air Force.


It is interesting to see what will bring the delivery of the AWACS to the Ukrainian Air Force. They could potentially gain the upper hand in the gathering of real time informations from the frontline area.

armyrecognition.com

Sweden Confirms Delivery of ASC 890 Aircraft to Ukraine to Strengthen Early Warning and Air Defense Network

Sweden Confirms Delivery of ASC 890 Aircraft to Ukraine to Strengthen Early Warning and Air Defense Network
armyrecognition.com armyrecognition.com

The russians mostly don`t use anymore their A-50 near the frontline after a series of catastrofal losses. And, anyway, the Mainstay is also a remnant from soviet times, with limited upgrades. It will not be on par with the more modern european AWACS supplied to Ukraina.
bulgarianmilitary.com

Ukrainian radars spot RuAF A-50 AEW&C after year-long absence

Ukraine detects Russian A-50 aircraft after a year, operating over Orlovska Oblast. Explore its role, losses, and significance in the Russia-Ukraine war in 2025
bulgarianmilitary.com bulgarianmilitary.com
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Well if we want to get technical depending on sources 100% of the Air Force was destroyed and then some. The Ukraine Air Force certainly has better capabilities now due to F-16s, (which I will talk about more) Mirages, additional upgraded MiG-29s, Saab AWACs, integration of Storm Shadow into SU-24s, newly supplied air to air and air to ground munitions and NATO global intelligence. It being “in better shape now” also doesn’t change the fact that the majority of its aircraft were destroyed. What we are now witnessing is an Air Force that was rebuilt with the help of dozens of countries. A lot of its experienced and high ranking pilots are also dead including colonels, it’s pretty telling that the last F-16 pilot was previously a young SU-25 pilot. Some of the other pilots killed in Soviet aircraft were also previously trained in the United States.


Back to F-16s, it’s a good improvement over their Mig-29s especially with JDAM-ER munitions giving them range out to 80 km and the AIM-120Ds are very effective against drones and cruise missiles. They would probably also pair well with SAAB AWACs and the aircraft themselves are probably relatively easy to maintain and can be shipped to Poland or Romania for maintenance or upgrade. However, with all those great things, it was all recently acquired. It would be like China or Russia giving the Iraqi Air Force hundreds of fighters and then claiming the US led invasions didn’t achieve much and Iraq now has more capabilities because it can more effectively fight off NATO. Arming and aiding a country during or after hostilities is different from a country being attacked, isolated and alone like Iraq, Yugoslavia, Libya, ect.


According to your own sources the majority of Ukrainian aircraft were shot down/crashed and pilots killed. Not only that but Russian missiles strikes on Ukrainian bases killed Ukrainian pilots, very high ranking ones.

-23 aircraft of all types shot down 2014-2022. Most pilots killed.

-80 out of 163 fixed with aircraft shot down/crashed 2022-present. The rest destroyed by strikes. Most pilots killed.

-59 out of 71 rotary aircraft shot down/crashed 2022 present. The rest destroyed by strikes. Most pilots killed.

One Russian awacs was downed, the other ‘catastrophe’ and something Ukrainians boast about is the loss of a IL-76 transport aircraft loaded with Ukrainian POWs in which the Russians side informed the Ukrainians ahead of time with flight plans. Russian AWACS flights are also highly secretive so you wouldn’t know where they operate nor would some journalists. As recently as this July an SU-35 using an R-37M killed a Ukrainian MiG-29 from a distance of 212 km away. That would almost certainly suggest an AWACs as Ukrainian would utilize electronic warfare and low level flying to avoid being detected and as so it would be very difficult if not impossible for an aircraft to detect and then make a kill from those distances and circumstances alone.
 
NMaude said:
I'm not familiar with the website, what is bad about it?
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its a really bad source, every article they publish is very much full of fawning over equipment of russian origin, sorry to say but its a very biased source and has no real confirmation about the stuff they pubblish, they keep on blabbering about the Mig 41 for example or how the Su-75 is just behind the corner, the reality is that Bulgarianmilitary.com is a propaganda outlet and not a source to follow at all.
 
Archibald said:
Bul(shit)garianmilitary.com - don't use that horse manure as a source please.
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Who was using Bulgarianmiliary.com as a source?


ItalianAFDFail said:
its a really bad source, every article they publish is very much full of fawning over equipment of russian origin, sorry to say but its a very biased source and has no real confirmation about the stuff they pubblish, they keep on blabbering about the Mig 41 for example or how the Su-75 is just behind the corner, the reality is that Bulgarianmilitary.com is a propaganda outlet and not a source to follow at all.
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The same Bulgarianmilitary that wrote dozens of flattering articles about NATO equipment and countries? Seems like you are just bias and can’t accept that sometimes Russian equipment is modern or dare I say a challenge for NATO wonder weapons.
 
I did used Bulgarianmiliary.com as a source, with this article
bulgarianmilitary.com

Ukrainian radars spot RuAF A-50 AEW&C after year-long absence

Ukraine detects Russian A-50 aircraft after a year, operating over Orlovska Oblast. Explore its role, losses, and significance in the Russia-Ukraine war in 2025
bulgarianmilitary.com bulgarianmilitary.com


I anyway checked before other sources, which gave the same information

Russian A-50 AWACS Airborne After a Long Break, Counterattacks against Ukraine Expected

The A-50U's return follows setbacks to Russia's AWACS fleet, including a Ukrainian SCALP missile downing one in January 2024 and an airfield attack.
www.defensemirror.com www.defensemirror.com

www.eurasiantimes.com

Escorted By Su-30s, Russia’s 'Cutting-Edge' A-50U AWACS Spotted After 6 Months In Hibernation: Ukraine Media

The A-50U Air Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft of the Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) has reportedly made an appearance after a long lull in activity, triggering concerns of an imminent massive Russian attack. Russia has allegedly flown the A-50 reconnaissance aircraft for the first...
www.eurasiantimes.com www.eurasiantimes.com
 
Galaxy said:
The same Bulgarianmilitary that wrote dozens of flattering articles about NATO equipment and countries? Seems like you are just bias and can’t accept that sometimes Russian equipment is modern or dare I say a challenge for NATO wonder weapons.
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Its not a serious source for anything. At best it repeats good information from elsewhere, at worst any kind of rumour or speculation.
 
bulgarianmilitary.com

Confirmed: Ukraine’s F-16s run ELINT missions against Russia

Ukrainian F-16 pilot confirms jets perform ELINT missions, combat ops, and escorts in war against Russia, adapting Western aid to counter advanced air defenses.
bulgarianmilitary.com bulgarianmilitary.com

I would say they are a pretty decent source. The F-16 is certainly the most flexible platform in the Ukrainian arsenal. Intelligent gathering, ground strikes, air to air capabilities, easy of maintaining, reliability. I would also make an argument that the SU-24 with its range, excellent low altitude performance, Storm Shadows and some avionics upgrades.
 
Galaxy said:
The same Bulgarianmilitary that wrote dozens of flattering articles about NATO equipment and countries? Seems like you are just bias and can’t accept that sometimes Russian equipment is modern or dare I say a challenge for NATO wonder weapons.
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oh no i can accept when russian equipment is good, but the source is too flattering and incapable of being balanced on articles, i wouldn't consider it worthwhile, this isn't about bias, it's about lies and articles that don't provide accurate information, they make them only for engagement.
 
ItalianAFDFail said:
oh no i can accept when russian equipment is good, but the source is too flattering and incapable of being balanced on articles, i wouldn't consider it worthwhile, this isn't about bias, it's about lies and articles that don't provide accurate information, they make them only for engagement.
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I don’t want to hijack the thread but there are plenty of good articles by them and i don’t think I ever personally every used them as a source until I just posted that F-16 ELINT article about Ukraine using F-16 in the ELINT role and I didn’t pick up any bias, if anything it seemed pro Ukrainian.

The article even shared an interview with a Ukrainian F-16 pilot and some pro Ukrainian sources. I really didn’t see anything that stood out a propaganda or bias or lies. It was packed with lots of information, more information than 90% to 99% other publications that talk about Ukrainian F-16s.
 
Wotan said:
Here they come again.

www.zona-militar.com

The Netherlands has confirmed the transfer of another batch of F-16 fighter jets to the Ukrainian Air Force

During the most recent meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group (UDCG), held in Brussels and attended by more than 50 countries, the Netherlands
www.zona-militar.com www.zona-militar.com
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The Dutch F-16s are from what I understand the most capable of the used F-16s offered to Ukraine, back in January when I was reading this excellent book about the development of the F-35. Dutch F-16s were mentioned a number of times with the authors pointing out that the Dutch airforce spent serious time and money to regularly give hardware and software update their F-16s to keep them at USAF standards meaning that the Dutch F-16s were the only export F-16s fully interoperable with USAF F-16s.
 

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