A crash fleet and supplementing the US fleet

[johnpjones1775]

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proc...a0SpmUNiv0EdaG6Dbg_aem_ZQDWwg4VihHQeweCijRPYA
In nearly every conflict we’ve been involved in since the advent of steam powered warships the USN has rushed to built smaller improvised ships that would have fallen far short of making the cut to be built during peace time, or we armed private vessels if we were facing an adversary with a moderately powered navy.
ACW, spanish-American war, WWI, WWII, arguably even during the Vietnam war if you count the PBRs and other brown water craft we rushed to build out of necessity.

I think a great example of what the author is talking about are the Cuban rio Damuji class

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Damuji-class_frigate

 

[Firefinder]

Vietnam war if you count the PBRs and other brown water craft we rushed to build out of necessity.

I wouldn't since those ships have limited use elsewhere thats borderline useless. The Riverine force was only useful in Nam due to its mass of rivers and deep tributies which are only repeated in the Amazon down south and the US east of the Mississippi.

And Which privately ownt vessels did the USN take over enmass in WW2? We built all we needed with even the ULTRA SPAM ships like the Liberatys being use well over 20 years since they were more then consider good enough. Hell the Fletchers and Gearings where built to the same standards as the prewar Mahans and Sims with the war builds being consider better by their crews.

Edit: also the first world war was honestly the last war that you could take a civilian design and mod it for combat, even then it was consider... a one time deal. Modern antiship weapons are far too proficient and easy to make for something like the Rio there. You need a minimun of a LCS set up and even that is pushing it.

 

[Brickmuppet]

A few ideas and questions.

IDK what is really necessary for AAA fire control or Electronic warfare.

Would something akin to Sea Phoenix's fire control, say in this case 1-3xF-18 radar sets allow for use of something like ESSM?

If we can make a useful AAA fire control produce-able at scale then something like the old ARAPAHO project could be done, possibly using STANFLEX modules. Of course due to the dearth of U.S. ships, that would require congressional action to allow for the purchase of vessels overseas. eg:
https://horizonship.com/ship-category/dry-cargo-ships-for-sale/bulk-carriers-for-sale/
That has to be done in one fell swoop as if the chinese see us doing this they will buy every ship on earth quite quickly.

Another, non-statutory and quite non-trivial issue with this is that most of these vessels make 14-16 kts. Also, few are in particularly good condition, after all their owners are selling them. However, depending on their crane fit, they might be productively fitted out as supply vessels or repair ships; potentially a major benefit. On the more outré side of things, as AMCs with VLS in the holds they might make Arsenal ships with other, proper, warships providing fire-control...when these slow boats from China can manage to be in range.


For new builds on the Very Low, desperation end of the High-Low spectrum I'd suggest fast oil rig supply craft which the U.S. is capable of building in some numbers. A few Stanflex modules and perhaps a van mounted sonar as was designed for the Coast Guard Medium Endurance Cutters might make them decent stop-gaps. Perhaps firing sonobouys over the side, and, at the higher end, the ASW version of the MD 50, which, I believe used to operate from the DASH hangers on Taiwanese FRAMs and might be able to fly off a very small ship.

An updated DASH drone might be looked at too.

The elephant in the room is electronics and missile production capacity. IDK how that production gets ramped up, but ESSM and RAM might be obtainable in numbers in the near term. The old ARAPAHO project and the Danish Stanflex system as well, both assumed the kit to do the upgrades and swap out modules would have their numbers built up gradually and stockpiled to be quickly fitted when the balloon went up.

There is also the very well understood possibility of USV drones, but those are likely to have even more production bottlenecks regarding their electronics than something like a Stanflex module and a fighter radar. There are probably operational complications as well that are classified.


Mine warfare is a thorny issue that likely requires some manner of sorcery to do on the quick and cheap.

 

[johnpjones1775]

I wouldn't since those ships have limited use elsewhere thats borderline useless. The Riverine force was only useful in Nam due to its mass of rivers and deep tributies which are only repeated in the Amazon down south and the US east of the Mississippi.

And Which privately ownt vessels did the USN take over enmass in WW2? We built all we needed with even the ULTRA SPAM ships like the Liberatys being use well over 20 years since they were more then consider good enough. Hell the Fletchers and Gearings where built to the same standards as the prewar Mahans and Sims with the war builds being consider better by their crews.

Edit: also the first world war was honestly the last war that you could take a civilian design and mod it for combat, even then it was consider... a one time deal. Modern antiship weapons are far too proficient and easy to make for something like the Rio there. You need a minimun of a LCS set up and even that is pushing it.

We’ve neglected small craft between wars and had to rush to get the numbers of them we needed.
So if not PBRs and similar boats for rivers, we may well have had to rush FAC/FIAC with missiles and/or torpedoes.

As for privately owned vessels pressed into service in WWII

https://www.mycg.uscg.mil/News/Article/4060235/world-war-iis-home-guard/
Edit
Might have built/armed more ships like the USS Douglas after her refit to launch 2 anti-radiation missiles, or potentially something like ESSMs to help run escort missions in the med in a hypothetical war against the soviets and their middle eastern/african allies.

 

[CommanderRenHoek]

A few ideas and questions.

IDK what is really necessary for AAA fire control or Electronic warfare.

Would something akin to Sea Phoenix's fire control, say in this case 1-3xF-18 radar sets allow for use of something like ESSM?

Sounds like mass producing Mk 24 Mod 0, which Mr Inaba of Naval News thinks may be based off the SH/Growler's APG-79, and is apparently installed on at least five Nimitzes (three or so radars a carrier). Raytheon told him they're self-defense to aid cueing for RAM and CIWS; but given the range capability of APG-79 its not inconceivable they can use ESSM, especially Block II.

Mine warfare is a thorny issue that likely requires some manner of sorcery to do on the quick and cheap.

I was under the impression mine warfare would actually be the quick and cheap and dirty way to do sea denial, at least for very defined geographic areas (like the Taiwan straits), needing only fast craft and submarines for precision/covert mining and good capacity airlift for mass area mining. The catch is does Taiwan or US or anyone in the IndoPacific not named DPRK/North Korea (and maybe PRC) have enough mines to do such an effort. The other, probably more thornier problem is timing: preemptive mining would be too early and a waste, mining after first strike and while invasion is underway may be harder and/or too late.

 

[johnpjones1775]

A few ideas and questions.

IDK what is really necessary for AAA fire control or Electronic warfare.

Would something akin to Sea Phoenix's fire control, say in this case 1-3xF-18 radar sets allow for use of something like ESSM?

If we can make a useful AAA fire control produce-able at scale then something like the old ARAPAHO project could be done, possibly using STANFLEX modules. Of course due to the dearth of U.S. ships, that would require congressional action to allow for the purchase of vessels overseas. eg:
https://horizonship.com/ship-category/dry-cargo-ships-for-sale/bulk-carriers-for-sale/
That has to be done in one fell swoop as if the chinese see us doing this they will buy every ship on earth quite quickly.

Another, non-statutory and quite non-trivial issue with this is that most of these vessels make 14-16 kts. Also, few are in particularly good condition, after all their owners are selling them. However, depending on their crane fit, they might be productively fitted out as supply vessels or repair ships; potentially a major benefit. On the more outré side of things, as AMCs with VLS in the holds they might make Arsenal ships with other, proper, warships providing fire-control...when these slow boats from China can manage to be in range.


For new builds on the Very Low, desperation end of the High-Low spectrum I'd suggest fast oil rig supply craft which the U.S. is capable of building in some numbers. A few Stanflex modules and perhaps a van mounted sonar as was designed for the Coast Guard Medium Endurance Cutters might make them decent stop-gaps. Perhaps firing sonobouys over the side, and, at the higher end, the ASW version of the MD 50, which, I believe used to operate from the DASH hangers on Taiwanese FRAMs and might be able to fly off a very small ship.

An updated DASH drone might be looked at too.

The elephant in the room is electronics and missile production capacity. IDK how that production gets ramped up, but ESSM and RAM might be obtainable in numbers in the near term. The old ARAPAHO project and the Danish Stanflex system as well, both assumed the kit to do the upgrades and swap out modules would have their numbers built up gradually and stockpiled to be quickly fitted when the balloon went up.

There is also the very well understood possibility of USV drones, but those are likely to have even more production bottlenecks regarding their electronics than something like a Stanflex module and a fighter radar. There are probably operational complications as well that are classified.


Mine warfare is a thorny issue that likely requires some manner of sorcery to do on the quick and cheap.

As for AA, it’s iffy.

Part of what people have to accept is there will be losses which Americans just don’t accept any more.

Some containerized systems could work, like with the millennium gun’s ashore system.

Otherwise very basic AA can be added cheaply and quickly in the form of systems like VAMPIRE.

Sounds like mass producing Mk 24 Mod 0, which Mr Inaba of Naval News thinks may be based off the SH/Growler's APG-79, and is apparently installed on at least five Nimitzes (three or so radars a carrier). Raytheon told him they're self-defense to aid cueing for RAM and CIWS; but given the range capability of APG-79 its not inconceivable they can use ESSM, especially Block II.



I was under the impression mine warfare would actually be the quick and cheap and dirty way to do sea denial, at least for very defined geographic areas (like the Taiwan straits), needing only fast craft and submarines for precision/covert mining and good capacity airlift for mass area mining. The catch is does Taiwan or US or anyone in the IndoPacific not named DPRK/North Korea (and maybe PRC) have enough mines to do such an effort. The other, probably more thornier problem is timing: preemptive mining would be too early and a waste, mining after first strike and while invasion is underway may be harder and/or too late.

i wonder if any rocket/missile launched mines exist that can be fired from shore batteries.

 

[yeetmahboi]

The mobililization frigate is cool.

 

[CommanderRenHoek]

i wonder if any rocket/missile launched mines exist that can be fired from shore batteries.

The smallest naval mine immediately available to US/aligned forces that comes to mind is the 500lb Mk 62 Quickstrike which is too large for 227mm MLRS/HIMARS class rockets. Launching that or bigger mines will probably require PrSM or ATACMS-class rockets which will rapidly escalate the cost of the venture and steal valuable TBMs better served on other targets.

A better path for rapid deployment of naval mines is pairing up Rapid Dragon on [insert suitable cargo airlifter here] with GBU-62 and GBU-64 glide mines and throwing them into the adversary port or maritime staging area.

 

[Dilandu]

And Which privately ownt vessels did the USN take over enmass in WW2? We built all we needed with even the ULTRA SPAM ships like the Liberatys being use well over 20 years since they were more then consider good enough. Hell the Fletchers and Gearings where built to the same standards as the prewar Mahans and Sims with the war builds being consider better by their crews.

Yes, but you can't do it now. American shipbuilding is a shadow of the shadow of what it once was. So the only available sources of auxilary units are either buying them from other countries (which would cause prices to raise up fast, and only bolster Chinese shipyards), or taking them from civilian owners.

 

[Dilandu]

Well, according to this source, there are about 15 medium-scale shipyards in USA that are capable of building ships of thousand-tons range. The majority seems to be limited to 3000-5000 tons size (some could build much more), so I consider this displacement range as absolute maximum for "emergency wartime" type of warship.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Well, according to this source, there are about 15 medium-scale shipyards in USA that are capable of building ships of thousand-tons range. The majority seems to be limited to 3000-5000 tons size (some could build much more), so I consider this displacement range as absolute maximum for "emergency wartime" type of warship.

If those shipyards are on the Great Lakes, most of them refuse to contract with the USN anymore due to constant design changes while building the ships.

You'd have to give them guaranteed "this is the design, it's not changeable while you're building it" contracts to even consider working for the USN again.

 

[Dilandu]

You'd have to give them guaranteed "this is the design, it's not changeable while you're building it" contracts to even consider working for the USN again.

True. Of course, in case of war they would probably be forced to took contract under the threat of being nationalized. But the problem of USN inability to "freeze" the design is a major factor.