EE Lightning Fantasy Upgrade (too fanciful for alternative history)

[pathology_doc]

Sometime in 1987, a djinn walks into BAe's offices and promises them infinite money if they will adhere to the following conditions:

1) The English Electric Lightning must be maintained in service and upgraded to the limit.
2) The overall shape of the airplane cannot change. This means e.g. no single-engine variants, no swing-wings, but existing upgrade paths including F.2 to F.2a conversions are allowed.
3) Since financial concerns will be a non-issue, political and service objections to maintaining or increasing current Lightning force levels will be magically handwaved.

How do you manage the programme?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

In 1987, I would doubt you could build more Lightnings, as all the tooling is presumably long gone. If you wanted to make new, I think it would be as easy to build EAPs instead.

You could probably fit Blue Vixen in the nosecone replacing AI23. AMRAAM replacing Red Top/Firestreak. PW1120 to replace the Avon engine?

 

[pathology_doc]

In 1987, I would doubt you could build more Lightnings, as all the tooling is presumably long gone.

Remember, the Djinn brings infinite money, so you can reopen the line irrespective of cost and production volume.

The first thing to do, of course, is to ground everything and give it a complete overhaul, replace mainspars etc, and effectively restore the airframes to a zero-hours condition. Conversion to F.6 standard is undertaken at this time, with the option for F.53 wing racks.

Next thing I'd do is identify external cladding that is suitable to replace with carbon fibre for weight reduction.

Set the metallurgists and engine designers to see how much more power we can get out of the Avons, assuming there isn't a better engine that drops into the same space.

Once I've taken care of airframe and powerplant, then I start looking at a modern, small-volume radar and fire control set that will allow a Radar Red Top option. AMRAAM isn't going to be made to work reliably for another few years yet (IIRC the initial war shot was in the air exclusion zone after the first Gulf War), but Britain does finally know how to build a good IR (Taildog) or SARH (Skyflash) seeker head; thus Blue Jay Marks 5 and 6 come about. Note that Red Top and Skyflash are of about the same diameter; you might even be able to get the Skyflash seeker into the Red Top nose for a missile of about the same weight and length, which may obviate the need to run carriage clearance trials.

AMRAAM capability can come down the road, when the missile is available as an in-service, off-the-shelf option and a small enough radar and FCS can be slotted in to work with the missile. At that point, because the missile doesn't need to be close to LN2 bottles for seeker cooling, you can run wires out to the wing racks and potentially carry up to six. The end goal is for an overload condition of AMRAAM on all four wing racks, and a pair of ASRAAM on each side of the weapon pack, plus the 27mm BK gun as a replacement for the Adens in the belly pack (F2a's will probably have to keep the nose ADENs because of volume issues).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Well, it's your fantasy I guess, but the rules seem pretty arbitrary.

Radar Red Top would be worse than Skyflash, so why bother? It needs new electronics, motors, seekers, rocket engine... AMRAAM IOC was in 1993 I think, only 6 years into the future. Use AIM-9L and Skyflash or AIM-7M until AMRAAM becomes available.

Blue Vixen was developed in the early 1990s, so perhaps its predecessor (Blue Falcon) or AN-APG-65/66 instead.

 

[Foo Fighter]

The lightning had very poor upgrade potential, a narrow fuselage designed purely to achieve the speed required, poor ergonomics for servicing ertc.

If you had infinite money you WOULD sell what you have in the way of Lightning stock and build new to improve the aircraft actually in service.

Sorry, the premise is so flawed I just cannot see a place for it in any nations air force/political thinking.

Best use I can think of is similar to the Firebee drone for recce and defence distraction while deploying the V bomber force so a one way trip in most instances.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Sometime in 1987, a djinn walks into BAe's offices and promises them infinite money if they will adhere to the following conditions:

1) The English Electric Lightning must be maintained in service and upgraded to the limit.
2) The overall shape of the airplane cannot change. This means e.g. no single-engine variants, no swing-wings, but existing upgrade paths including F.2 to F.2a conversions are allowed.
3) Since financial concerns will be a non-issue, political and service objections to maintaining or increasing current Lightning force levels will be magically handwaved.

How do you manage the programme?

• Call all birds back for a full rebuild to zero hours. New spars, maybe new wing and fuselage skins, whole nine yards. While we're at it, let's readjust the area ruling and the wings.
• Replace Avons with EJ200s (may have to wait a bit for this step, EJs weren't available till 1991), RB199s are not a step up power wise but would greatly improve fuel economy and are close enough to the same weight as EJs for weight and balance purposes. EJs make 25% more thrust than the Avons at full reheat, but only ~8% more at MIL.
• Blue Vixen radar, Skyflash missiles under the wings, ASRAAM if it's available yet (AIM-9L if it's not) and FFS give the cheeks Y racks like a Crusader so you can carry 4x Skyflash and 4x ASRAAM/Sidewinders like a real fighter.
• Might replace the guns with Taildog SRAAMs if I have infinite money to make the "gun that shoots around corners", assume fitting 6-8x Taildogs in place of the guns (6x Taildog would be pretty close to the weight of 2x Aden w/200rds each, right at 900lbs). This does presume a 100% Interceptor role, but if the whole gun tray is removable as a unit then a separate unit with Taildog could be made to swap in. Air policing is useful to have a gun to shout "HEY, STUPID!!!" at someone not responding to the radio calls or a fighter blasting across their nose, but for wartime interception I'd rather have the Taildogs.

 

[pathology_doc]

For all those suggesting a radar upgrade - does Blue Vixen or APG-65 fit in the intake centrebody?

Remember that unlike the Crusader, the existing missiles hang off of racks that plug into a drop-out weapons avionics/accessories pack; they are not integral with the fuselage. Do you have sufficient clearance on a Y rack to fit two missiles per side without running into interference problems with the wings? Do you have sufficient strength in the mounting point to take a Y rack with two missiles?

Are you REALLY sure you want to give up the guns? They were reinstalled for a reason, if only for the ability to take a shot when all the missiles had been used up.

How much room are six to eight Taildogs going to take up? Remember, just aft of the belly-bulge gun bay is a sh**load of jet fuel. Are you really sure you want to mount missile launchers there?

Sorry, the premise is so flawed

Yes, I know that - take a look at the title of the post. I'm having a bit of fun here.

 

[Scott Kenny]

For all those suggesting a radar upgrade - does Blue Vixen or APG-65 fit in the intake centrebody?

Blue Vixen has a very small antenna, compare SHAR with a late model AV8B+ with the radar out of a Hornet (and even then, that antenna was apparently cut down in diameter). Frustrated as hell that I cannot find the antenna diameter of Blue Vixen online anywhere.

Remember that unlike the Crusader, the existing missiles hang off of racks that plug into a drop-out weapons avionics/accessories pack; they are not integral with the fuselage. Do you have sufficient clearance on a Y rack to fit two missiles per side without running into interference problems with the wings? Do you have sufficient strength in the mounting point to take a Y rack with two missiles?

Two Sidewinders are a bit heavier than a single Red Top. I haven't seen any reference for how heavy the Crusader Y rack is, but I'm guessing in the 200lb minimum range. But that also means replacing all of the Red Top bits in the pack with 1980s era Sidewinder/Skyflash bits out of likely an F-4M and/or Tornado IDS, so I'm willing to bet we can save a significant amount of weight and volume there.

Are you REALLY sure you want to give up the guns? They were reinstalled for a reason, if only for the ability to take a shot when all the missiles had been used up.

When you only have two missiles, you need a third attack.

This would have 8 missiles before we get to the Taildogs. 4x Skyflash and 4x Sidewinders.

How much room are six to eight Taildogs going to take up? Remember, just aft of the belly-bulge gun bay is a sh**load of jet fuel. Are you really sure you want to mount missile launchers there?

Taildogs are 165mm diameter and 2.75m long. The launch tube is probably 180mm diameter. And you can add a blast deflector to not roast the jet fuel on Taildog launch.

plus, we can probably move some of that fuel around as part of the area rule revisions.

 

[pathology_doc]

Blue Vixen has a very small antenna, compare SHAR with a late model AV8B+ with the radar out of a Hornet (and even then, that antenna was apparently cut down in diameter). Frustrated as hell that I cannot find the antenna diameter of Blue Vixen online anywhere.

That's the antenna. Now, have you allowed room for everything BEHIND it?

 

[Scott Kenny]

That's the antenna. Now, have you allowed room for everything BEHIND it?

Considering that it's replacing something made from Vacuum Tubes? Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's space for the new boxes.

 

[uk 75]

Enjoying the details and love for the Lightning.

 

[F-2]

In 1987, I would doubt you could build more Lightnings, as all the tooling is presumably long gone. If you wanted to make new, I think it would be as easy to build EAPs instead.

You could probably fit Blue Vixen in the nosecone replacing AI23. AMRAAM replacing Red Top/Firestreak. PW1120 to replace the Avon engine?

You wouldn’t even need to either. Kuwait had a bunch sitting in a warehouse if you really wanted them, though I would take the EAP like you said

 

[Foo Fighter]

For all those suggesting a radar upgrade - does Blue Vixen or APG-65 fit in the intake centrebody?

Remember that unlike the Crusader, the existing missiles hang off of racks that plug into a drop-out weapons avionics/accessories pack; they are not integral with the fuselage. Do you have sufficient clearance on a Y rack to fit two missiles per side without running into interference problems with the wings? Do you have sufficient strength in the mounting point to take a Y rack with two missiles?

Are you REALLY sure you want to give up the guns? They were reinstalled for a reason, if only for the ability to take a shot when all the missiles had been used up.

How much room are six to eight Taildogs going to take up? Remember, just aft of the belly-bulge gun bay is a sh**load of jet fuel. Are you really sure you want to mount missile launchers there?


Yes, I know that - take a look at the title of the post. I'm having a bit of fun here.

Pardon me, yes I get it. Thing is you need to factor in the, bastard factor. Those who want versus those who run the bank account and I am pretty sure the blue jobs given a free rein would come up with a requirement for new. They are wired for it.

Consider the various different attempts to fit a 110mm gun into Centurion and then Chieftain, they ended up being refused for the benefit of a totally untested 120mm L11.

That being said, the new engines and radar, along with sensor suites with a second seat with a fuselage plug might make the aircraft better suited to the role they wanted it for with reduced tanker support and more modern weaponry it might make for a Bear/Badger anihilator.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Oh, crud yes, forgot to add the fuselage plug for the RIO in back. Or whatever the UK called their back seaters.

If I can put the cut in the right place, use that to push the gun/missile pallet forward to give a bit more space for the Taildogs and add more fuel that isn't in the belly pan.

 

[Hood]

The Ultimate What-if: British Aerospace Super Lightning

Following the cancellation of the Tornado ADV, BAe proposed an enhanced Lightning as an interim fighter/interceptor for the RAF until a longer term solution was found. The initial proposal included…

hushkit.net

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

That's the antenna. Now, have you allowed room for everything BEHIND it?

Have you seen a Harrier compared to a Lightning?

System weight of AI-23 was about 113kg, whereas Blue Vixen is about 145kg. It can probably fit fine - in the Sea Harrier, due to lack of space in the nose, some radar components were located elsewhere.

 

[pathology_doc]

Have you seen a Harrier compared to a Lightning?

System weight of AI-23 was about 113kg, whereas Blue Vixen is about 145kg. It can probably fit fine - in the Sea Harrier, due to lack of space in the nose, some radar components were located elsewhere.

It's probably a lot easier to locate them elsewhere in the transistor/microchip era than it was back in valve days!

Way back in the day, I used to look through Christopher Chant's books on aircraft weapons and rack capacities and think "Hey, AMRAAM weighs about as much as Red Top, why didn't they just stick them on there?" It was quite some time before I realized exactly what lay between a racked missile and the pilot's trigger finger, and why such apparently simple substitutions were not as simple as they first appeared. My aviation mind seems to have been stuck at about age nine for quite some time.