Top secret DERA rocket designed by the Engel group at VA Pibrans - a basic concept for Project Orion?

novum

novum

It takes all kinds to make a world.
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Hi there,

in interrogation report Larsson et al, Ref. No. SAIC/38, NARA, the following statement can be found:

DERA.png

Can it be, that this basic propulsion principle was reused in project Orion later on in the 50's by Teller et al?

Here a sketch of the pusher plate principle used for project orion quoted from Mead et al, 1972:

ORION.png

Academic discussion quoting references welcome.

Regards,
Manuel
 
novum said:
Can it be, that this basic propulsion principle was reused in project Orion later on in the 50's by Teller et al?
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Erm, the idea of pulse rocket engine is much older. One such concept was suggested by German inventor Hermann Ganswindt in 1893. He proposed a "void ship", which would move by constantly exploding dynamite charges behind the steel "bell":

1711915292835.jpeg
 
Dilandu said:
Heh, you beat me for three minutes with Ganswindt (I was searching for a good picture of his proposed craft) :)
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You snooze, you lose. I got there first, so I get all the hot aerospace groupies.


The sad thing is that people will *race* to be the first to answer nonsense... answers that the original nonsense-spouter probably spent years ignoring or avoiding. A few words with little context? Doesn't stand up against the likes of whole books or patents.
 
Ok, you got me there. Another German invention on which project Orion might have been based. However, I mean a similar description that fits this one here:

ORION.png

The von Ganswindt principle described is not really looking like the Orion one, is it?
 
Orionblamblam said:
You snooze, you lose. I got there first, so I get all the hot aerospace groupies.
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Keep them, I prefer hunky roadies anyway)

Orionblamblam said:
The sad thing is that people will *race* to be the first to answer nonsense... answers that the original nonsense-spouter probably spent years ignoring or avoiding. A few words with little context? Doesn't stand up against the likes of whole books or patents.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately quite true(
 
novum said:
The von Ganswindt principle described is not really looking like the Orion one, is it?
Click to expand...
Actually it's quite similar. His concept was exploding the dynamite charges in metal shells, so the "cap" or "bullet" from the shell would be launched forward, hit the bell-shaped "reflector" and give it some momentum. Replace dynamite with nuclear bomb and "cap" with plasma stream, and you would got Orion drive.
 
novum said:
Ok, you got me there. Another German invention on which project Orion might have been based.
Click to expand...

Only insofar as it was "bang makes vehicle move."

novum said:
The von Ganswindt principle described is not really looking like the Orion one, is it?
Click to expand...

In fact it looks a *lot* like the original Ulam concept, which looked a lot different from the eventual Orion. Early ideas often require *vast* changes once actual engineering gets involved.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Only insofar as it was "bang makes vehicle move."



In fact it looks a *lot* like the original Ulam concept, which looked a lot different from the eventual Orion. Early ideas often require *vast* changes once actual engineering gets involved.
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Interesting, can you share the original sketches of Ulam?
 
Orionblamblam said:
Yes I can. But you should already have them, given the *vast* amount of research you've clearly done on the subject such that you feel clear to declare that Ulam swiped the design from vaguely defined German concepts.
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I am always willing to change my perspective for good evidence.
 
novum said:
I am always willing to change my perspective for good evidence.
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Yeah... thing is, we've all see "ooh, neato Lufawaffe Wunderweapons were decades more advanced than everybody" fanboys for years, in some cases *decades,* and "willing to change" is not something actually in the cards.

*Maybe* you're different. But I've spent far too long trying to reason with Wunderwaffles and 9/11 truthers and Apollo hoaxers and Creationists and Democrats and Holocaust deniers and Chemtrail nuts and UFO wackos and Flat Earthers to have any faith in reason winning the day, so now all I have is the transitory glee that comes from mockery.
 
Yeah, I am not really one of them, but when it comes to flat earth - joking .. it takes all kinds to make a world.
No, I like academic reasoning on subjects that are not well researched in the sense of convincing evidence.
 
Efforts in the field of explosive-based propulsion during the Second World War.


Projekt "Drehorgel" [Barrel Organ]

January 18, 1943
Flakraketen Projekt: Schade
Nothing can be reported about this project yet, as it is still in the initial stage.

Source: Bundesarchiv
Signatur: RL 3/57; Page: 305
Direct Link:
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio/direktlink/3a122d0a-a629-4b60-9210-ee962aca7259/


November 1, 1943
(Flakentwicklungsbesprechung)
Discussion between Halder and von Renz
When anti-aircraft rocket projects were discussed at the end of last year, a project proposed by Oberleutnant Schade of the Kriegsmarine was introduced. The project was given the code name "Drehorgel". Schade worked on an explosive-based propellant. Work on this form of propulsion was to be continued under Dr. Schmidt at the Forschungsanstalt Braunschweig. The Forschungsführung and Prof. Seewald were also involved in the project.

Source: Bundesarchiv
Signatur: RL 3/41
Page: 837–839
Direct Link:
https://invenio.bundesarchiv.de/invenio/direktlink/61c39115-3cec-4acb-b46b-208316d2842c/


1944 - "High Muzzle Velocity"
Various methods were investigated to increase the performance of anti-aircraft artillery. One such method involved increasing muzzle velocity using explosive-based propellant charges, with or without a gun barrel. The project, which employed propellant charges made of explosives, was divided into two task areas: engaging low-flying aircraft* and engaging high-altitude bombers. Oberleutnant Dr.Schade of the OKM’s Amtsgruppe Forschung, Erfindungs- und Patentwesen FEP [RH8/670; Page:458] was apparently also a member of this working group.

*Probably a type of directional mine with incendiary projectiles.

Source:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/german-ww2-unknown-flak-projects.6981/post-923893


Detonations-Rakete
April 1942
Another project, which is also called a "Detonations-Rakete".
The Detonation Rocket by Hoffmann H.
"Report about the development of a combination rocket-jet engine for special purposes."

Source:
(Google Books)
Catalog of Aeronautical and Allied Technical Documents T-2 September 1946; Page:
Page: 1264
 
IIRC, the non-nuclear version, derived from a Goddard concept, was popularised by Jerry Pournelle in his Co-Dominion tales, 1970s 'A Spaceship for the King' later revised, extended to 1980s 'King David's Spaceship'.

Spoiler: Horse collars for the win !!!
 

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