USAF/US NAVY 6G Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

[FighterJock]

Posted by Air and Space Forces News last week:

Lockheed: F-35 Deliveries Still Frozen, Classified Programs Growing Fastest | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Lockheed Martin executives said they’re still waiting on a DOD investigation for F-35 deliveries to resume after a mishap in December.

www.airandspaceforces.com

Asked about the Next-Generation Interceptor and Next-Generation Air Dominance programs, Malave said Lockheed is confident about the NGI and “other programs here that are classified. … We expect some of those awards to be made either at the tail end of this year or into next year as well.” The Next-Generation Interceptor award is expected in 2025, “and some of these [classified] programs that I just spoke of between now … and 2025.”

The Next Generation Interceptor sounds really interesting, I wonder though will the NGI operate with the NGAD or will it be separate.

 

[TomS]

Posted by Air and Space Forces News last week:

Lockheed: F-35 Deliveries Still Frozen, Classified Programs Growing Fastest | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Lockheed Martin executives said they’re still waiting on a DOD investigation for F-35 deliveries to resume after a mishap in December.

www.airandspaceforces.com

Asked about the Next-Generation Interceptor and Next-Generation Air Dominance programs, Malave said Lockheed is confident about the NGI and “other programs here that are classified. … We expect some of those awards to be made either at the tail end of this year or into next year as well.” The Next-Generation Interceptor award is expected in 2025, “and some of these [classified] programs that I just spoke of between now … and 2025.”

The Next Generation Interceptor sounds really interesting, I wonder though will the NGI operate with the NGAD or will it be separate.

Next-Generation Interceptor is not an aircraft. It's a ground-launched national-level ballistic missile defense weapon, successor to the current Ground-Based Interceptor.

 

[FighterJock]

Posted by Air and Space Forces News last week:

Lockheed: F-35 Deliveries Still Frozen, Classified Programs Growing Fastest | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Lockheed Martin executives said they’re still waiting on a DOD investigation for F-35 deliveries to resume after a mishap in December.

www.airandspaceforces.com

Asked about the Next-Generation Interceptor and Next-Generation Air Dominance programs, Malave said Lockheed is confident about the NGI and “other programs here that are classified. … We expect some of those awards to be made either at the tail end of this year or into next year as well.” The Next-Generation Interceptor award is expected in 2025, “and some of these [classified] programs that I just spoke of between now … and 2025.”

The Next Generation Interceptor sounds really interesting, I wonder though will the NGI operate with the NGAD or will it be separate.

Next-Generation Interceptor is not an aircraft. It's a ground-launched national-level ballistic missile defense weapon, successor to the current Ground-Based Interceptor.

Thanks TomS, I do wonder about the other classified programs that were mentioned in the article whether they are aircraft. I suppose only time will tell.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Ok, maybe we can discuss about Next-Generation Interceptor in another thread, lest this goes off-topic.

 

[Hansblix]

They will apply as much as they can, as much as the airframe allows, until the percentage of it absorbing RADAR is at a very high point, preferably 100 or 99.999 percent or slightly less.

This is not possible. There are severe physical limitations on how much can be absorbed.

Here is a quote in regards to the F-35 which alludes to something groundbreaking utilizing meta materials. That was also 13 years ago. I’m under the assumption the term 6th Generation in regards to the b-21 is in part due to these advances put into the real world.

As a result, from the beginning of the F-35 program, Lockheed’s goal was to achieve acceptable stealth while reducing maintenance needs.In May of 2010, Tom Burbage, then executive vice president for the F-35 program, disclosed the incorporation of “fiber mat” technology, describing it as the biggest technical breakthrough they’ve had on F-35 program.The fiber mat would replace many RAM appliques by being cured into the composite skin, making it durable. Burbage further specified the mat featured a “non-directional weave” which would ensure EM properties do not vary with angle. Baked into the skin, this layer could vary in thickness as necessary. Lockheed declined to provide further details, citing classification. Without further evidence, fiber mat would imply the use of fibers, rather than particles, which would make for stronger surfaces and the word “conductive” points to carbon-based RAM. That wasn’t the first time it is hinted that F-35 has a unique kind of RAM. One month before Burbage’s disclosure, Lockheed filed a patent claiming the first method of producing a durable RAM panel. The patent details a method for growing carbon nanotubes (CNT) on any kind of fiber—glass, carbon, ceramic or metal with unprecedented precision in control of length, density, a number of walls, connectivity, and even orientation. The CNT-infused fibers can absorb or reflect radar, and connectivity among the CNTs provides pathways for induced currents. Moreover, the CNTs can be impregnated with iron or ferrite nanoparticles. Fibers can have differing CNT densities along their lengths and homogenous fibers can be layered or mixed. The embodiments described include front layers with impedance matching air, use of quarter-wavelength depths for cancellation, stepped or continuous CNT-density gradients and continuously varying densities at specific depths for broadband absorption. The fibers can be disposed with “random orientation” in materials including “a woven fabric, a non-woven fiber mat and a fiber ply.”.The patent claims composites with CNT-infused fibers are capable of absorbing EM waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz with particular effectiveness in L- through K-band.That is a bandwidth unheard of commercial radar absorbing material before. The patent does not quantify the absorptivity, but does say the panels would be “nearly a black body across . . . various radar bands.” Also, interestingly, a layer can be composed so an attached computer can read the induced currents in the fibers, making the layer a radar receiver.While the patent mentions stealth aircraft, it does not mention the F-35 specifically, and the manufacturing readiness level of the material at the time it was granted is not known. But the proximity in timing and technology of the filing to the “fiber mat” disclosure is hard to ignore.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

They will apply as much as they can, as much as the airframe allows, until the percentage of it absorbing RADAR is at a very high point, preferably 100 or 99.999 percent or slightly less.

This is not possible. There are severe physical limitations on how much can be absorbed.

Here is a quote in regards to the F-35 which alludes to something groundbreaking utilizing meta materials. That was also 13 years ago. I’m under the assumption the term 6th Generation in regards to the b-21 is in part due to these advances put into the real world.

As a result, from the beginning of the F-35 program, Lockheed’s goal was to achieve acceptable stealth while reducing maintenance needs.In May of 2010, Tom Burbage, then executive vice president for the F-35 program, disclosed the incorporation of “fiber mat” technology, describing it as the biggest technical breakthrough they’ve had on F-35 program.The fiber mat would replace many RAM appliques by being cured into the composite skin, making it durable. Burbage further specified the mat featured a “non-directional weave” which would ensure EM properties do not vary with angle. Baked into the skin, this layer could vary in thickness as necessary. Lockheed declined to provide further details, citing classification. Without further evidence, fiber mat would imply the use of fibers, rather than particles, which would make for stronger surfaces and the word “conductive” points to carbon-based RAM. That wasn’t the first time it is hinted that F-35 has a unique kind of RAM. One month before Burbage’s disclosure, Lockheed filed a patent claiming the first method of producing a durable RAM panel. The patent details a method for growing carbon nanotubes (CNT) on any kind of fiber—glass, carbon, ceramic or metal with unprecedented precision in control of length, density, a number of walls, connectivity, and even orientation. The CNT-infused fibers can absorb or reflect radar, and connectivity among the CNTs provides pathways for induced currents. Moreover, the CNTs can be impregnated with iron or ferrite nanoparticles. Fibers can have differing CNT densities along their lengths and homogenous fibers can be layered or mixed. The embodiments described include front layers with impedance matching air, use of quarter-wavelength depths for cancellation, stepped or continuous CNT-density gradients and continuously varying densities at specific depths for broadband absorption. The fibers can be disposed with “random orientation” in materials including “a woven fabric, a non-woven fiber mat and a fiber ply.”.The patent claims composites with CNT-infused fibers are capable of absorbing EM waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 GHz with particular effectiveness in L- through K-band.That is a bandwidth unheard of commercial radar absorbing material before. The patent does not quantify the absorptivity, but does say the panels would be “nearly a black body across . . . various radar bands.” Also, interestingly, a layer can be composed so an attached computer can read the induced currents in the fibers, making the layer a radar receiver.While the patent mentions stealth aircraft, it does not mention the F-35 specifically, and the manufacturing readiness level of the material at the time it was granted is not known. But the proximity in timing and technology of the filing to the “fiber mat” disclosure is hard to ignore.

And to think all that was 13 Years ago, one can only imagine where that tech is at now, or at what stage of research, development, and implementation it truly is at now. Not just as implemented into the B-21s, but also possibly being implemented in future Sixth-Generation Fighters as a whole

And given the rather classified nature of this project, it is thus, and could be possible that this so-called "Fiber Mat", or a top-secret improved and upgraded successor to it, could possibly be the main RAM that would be implemented into the US Sixth-Generation Aircraft, namely the Next Generation Air Dominance, (NGAD) of both the USAF and USN, as well as possibly future, succeeding generations of fighters, following the Sixth-Generation of course. (That is unless a far more advanced version of the Fiber Mat or a new method of increasing stealth and radiation absorption is developed in the Sixth-Generation Fighter's lifetime).

 

[quellish]

As a result, from the beginning of the F-35 program, Lockheed’s goal was to achieve acceptable stealth while reducing maintenance needs.In May of 2010, Tom Burbage, then executive vice president for the F-35 program, disclosed the incorporation of “fiber mat” technology, describing it as the biggest technical breakthrough they’ve had on F-35 program.The fiber mat would replace many RAM appliques by being cured into the composite skin, making it durable. Burbage further specified the mat featured a “non-directional weave” which would ensure EM properties do not vary with angle. Baked into the skin, this layer could vary in thickness as necessary.

"Fiber Mat" is a conductive, reflective material that replaces conductive coatings on previous advanced aircraft. Lockheed and the US Government found a workaround to avoid licensing a patent held by a US inventor. See Zoltek Corp vs. United States, etc.

One month before Burbage’s disclosure, Lockheed filed a patent claiming the first method of producing a durable RAM panel. The patent details a method for growing carbon nanotubes (CNT) on any kind of fiber—glass, carbon, ceramic or metal with unprecedented precision in control of length, density, a number of walls, connectivity, and even orientation.

The CNT materials described here have not been produced in quantity, and the F-35 has only recently begun using CNT composites in a very limited way (that would not benefit RCS).

Magic materials cannot violate the laws of physics. There are limits to how much energy can be absorbed.[/b]

 

[Hansblix]

As a result, from the beginning of the F-35 program, Lockheed’s goal was to achieve acceptable stealth while reducing maintenance needs.In May of 2010, Tom Burbage, then executive vice president for the F-35 program, disclosed the incorporation of “fiber mat” technology, describing it as the biggest technical breakthrough they’ve had on F-35 program.The fiber mat would replace many RAM appliques by being cured into the composite skin, making it durable. Burbage further specified the mat featured a “non-directional weave” which would ensure EM properties do not vary with angle. Baked into the skin, this layer could vary in thickness as necessary.

"Fiber Mat" is a conductive, reflective material that replaces conductive coatings on previous advanced aircraft. Lockheed and the US Government found a workaround to avoid licensing a patent held by a US inventor. See Zoltek Corp vs. United States, etc.

One month before Burbage’s disclosure, Lockheed filed a patent claiming the first method of producing a durable RAM panel. The patent details a method for growing carbon nanotubes (CNT) on any kind of fiber—glass, carbon, ceramic or metal with unprecedented precision in control of length, density, a number of walls, connectivity, and even orientation.

The CNT materials described here have not been produced in quantity, and the F-35 has only recently begun using CNT composites in a very limited way (that would not benefit RCS).

Magic materials cannot violate the laws of physics. There are limits to how much energy can be absorbed.[/b]

Absolutely. I've read varying numbers but the highest percentages with multispectrual absorption in regards to metamaterial absorbers has been quoted at exceeding 90% within white papers. It’s not strictly CNT but what seems to be a mix of several technologies including optical materials in tandem.

 

[Ainen]

So, shall we add a capability to win against balloons?

 

[torginus]

I'm not sure about carbon nanotubes, but as far as I understand this is how modern radar-absorbing composite panels are made. The composite panels, as we know, are made out of patches of carbon-fiber 'cloth' layered together and glued with epoxy resin in a high temperature kiln. This manufacturing process allows for the insertion of layers of conductive material between the carbon-fiber patches.
These layers of conductive material (made of CF nanotubes or something much less exotic) essentially are made to act as a giant antenna that is tuned to absorb one specific narrow band of frequencies and pass the others through.
By sandwiching many layers, each tuned to a different frequency, broad-band radar absorption can be achieved.
As mentioned in the article, this antenna can be used to sense incoming signals by connecting some sensing circuitry.

As the material is not on the exterior of the aircraft, it's resistant to external damage. As far as I this is how the external coating works on the F-35 today. I'm not sure

Btw - fun fact, I read that this approach has a significant weakness - since these absorbing layers are stacked on top of each other very closely, if one knows the resonant(absorbing) frequency of adjacent layers, they could make the radar excite the layers with two signals at those frequencies, but at opposing phase - that could create electrical arcing between the layers producing large returns.

LM knows this and that's why the order of layers is a closely guarded secret. But if one was to get their hands on a plane, or have enough time of trying illuminating the aircraft with signals of various frequencies in various combinations, they could discover the order of these layers.

That's why LM is so reluctant to fly F-35s in front of sophisticated enemy radars.

 

[Josh_TN]

I have a hard time believing nanotubes are remotely mainstream tech at this point. Manufacturing them in bulk in specific usable sizes was a holy grail of chemistry back when I still was practicing; methods of making them were either shot gun style carbon arcs that yielded a mismatch of sizes and configurations or so painstakingly slow that the process was only suitable for characterization, not industry. Unless there was a rather huge break through in catalysis and zeolites for producing a standard size reliably I'd have though material based on this would sit on the sidelines. There are of course many other conductive materials that could be used in composites to impart conductivity, however.

 

[torginus]

I don't even understand what you'd need nanotubes for - just etch a pattern out of a conductive layer - literally like how those Bluetooth & Wifi antennas are etched onto PCBs

 

[X-39]

I don't think we'll see anything regarding NGAD until it enters EMD. At that point it probably will be too hard to cover up from spotters like B-21.

Yet, let's not forget that Have Blue, Tacit Blue, Bird Of Prey, P-ISR/RQ-180 and LRS-B demo(Amarillo were all tested in broad daylight, without being much of a hindrance, #2 & #3 only revealed to the public after years had passed. Same treatment could be given to NGAD demos. Okay, eventually one of them is photographed (might have already happened anyway). So what? They could do the exact same thing after RQ-180 was spotted multiple times, which is.... doing nothing. After ~13 years in the open. Still, the info that could be gleaned by looking at a blurry photograph of a distant aircraft's underbelly is practically nil compared to a staged ceremony opening, with a close up of the main object of interest in spotlight flanked by flashing lights and great fanfare(B-21)

 

[zevets]

I have a hard time believing nanotubes are remotely mainstream tech at this point. Manufacturing them in bulk in specific usable sizes was a holy grail of chemistry back when I still was practicing; methods of making them were either shot gun style carbon arcs that yielded a mismatch of sizes and configurations or so painstakingly slow that the process was only suitable for characterization, not industry. Unless there was a rather huge break through in catalysis and zeolites for producing a standard size reliably I'd have though material based on this would sit on the sidelines. There are of course many other conductive materials that could be used in composites to impart conductivity, however.

This thread is fascinating because it connects the dots on a memory from some years ago:

I went to a tech talk about this from a small composites company that (later) got bought by LM, who was growing carbon nanotubes on carbon fiber tape susbtrate - and their basic claim was that if conductivity was your goal, you didn't need high 'quality' or size-controlled carbon nanotubes like you do for mechanical strength/chemistry, you just need to grow nanotubes with minimal non conductive 'defects' and you could get the desired conductivity. Once you cross that hurdle, the challenges were then price/quality of manufacturing, and ensuring cross-ply conductivity with your epoxy during lay-up. Mechanical strength of the composite was from the tape/epoxy, with minimal strength losses from the small volume fraction of the 'fuzz' of tubes on each tape layer.

That said, about 90% of the talk went above my head. For folks who understand the EM world - is this a plausible connection?

 

[TomcatViP]

Given how solid F-35 appears to be following the small number of occurrences where the airframe hit or collided with an obstacle, I am prone to think that CNT is a component part of the skin layers.

 

[Dreamfighter]

This thread is fascinating

Are you an anthropologist?

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

I don't think we'll see anything regarding NGAD until it enters EMD. At that point it probably will be too hard to cover up from spotters like B-21.

Yet, let's not forget that Have Blue, Tacit Blue, Bird Of Prey, P-ISR/RQ-180 and LRS-B demo(Amarillo were all tested in broad daylight, without being much of a hindrance, #2 & #3 only revealed to the public after years had passed. Same treatment could be given to NGAD demos. Okay, eventually one of them is photographed (might have already happened anyway). So what? They could do the exact same thing after RQ-180 was spotted multiple times, which is.... doing nothing. After ~13 years in the open. Still, the info that could be gleaned by looking at a blurry photograph of a distant aircraft's underbelly is practically nil compared to a staged ceremony opening, with a close up of the main object of interest in spotlight flanked by flashing lights and great fanfare(B-21)

Maybe there won't be an official unveiling of the NGAD manned fighter component as a whole, it will just start flying when it needs to fly, probably around 2025 or 2030, and the US will just make a short announcement or 2. Either way, even if the NGAD would be common knowledge and public by that point, it will have classified information regarding many of its characteristics, just like the F-22, but perhaps more.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

This thread is fascinating

Are you an anthropologist?

I know it's joke, but this thread is indeed fascinating alright, you can learn so many things about several differing topics and technologies that have come together just to possibly make the NGAD work as it is.

That's one reason why I'm mostly active in here, and then try to discuss about the NGAD with everyone else here, and also why I want to discuss more about the NGAD than anything else, even the B-21 (Apart from the reason that it's simply more publicly-known and with more information towards it than the NGAD's own inherent mystery.)

 

[Dreamfighter]

This thread is fascinating

Are you an anthropologist?

I know it's joke, but this thread is indeed fascinating alright, you can learn so many things about several differing topics and technologies that have come together just to possibly make the NGAD work as it is.

That's one reason why I'm mostly active in here, and then try to discuss about the NGAD with everyone else here, and also why I want to discuss more about the NGAD than anything else, even the B-21 (Apart from the reason that it's simply more publicly-known and with more information towards it than the NGAD's own inherent mystery.)

As long as this thread 'occasionally' also provides some (additional) information and doesn´t get transformed completely into a dialogue (or a monologue) of speculations, it will remain fascinating (from a military/technological viewpoint) to me as well.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

This thread is fascinating

Are you an anthropologist?

I know it's joke, but this thread is indeed fascinating alright, you can learn so many things about several differing topics and technologies that have come together just to possibly make the NGAD work as it is.

That's one reason why I'm mostly active in here, and then try to discuss about the NGAD with everyone else here, and also why I want to discuss more about the NGAD than anything else, even the B-21 (Apart from the reason that it's simply more publicly-known and with more information towards it than the NGAD's own inherent mystery.)

As long as this thread 'occasionally' also provides some (additional) information and doesn´t get transformed completely into a dialogue (or a monologue) of speculations, it will remain fascinating (from a military/technological viewpoint) to me as well.

I suppose so. But speculations and discussions may sadly abound, especially if they are of interest to me, so that can't be helped. I will also try to post news and other articles if they do pop up, so there's also that to look forward to.

 

[X-39]

Old Airsoc article from the past decade. Interestingly, the timelines would seem to closely align with what we've seen until now, and now that 2023-2025 is a more realistic date for EMD...

Asked about the Next-Generation Interceptor and Next-Generation Air Dominance programs, Malave said Lockheed is confident about the NGI and “other programs here that are classified. … We expect some of those awards to be made either at the tail end of this year or into next year as well.” The Next-Generation Interceptor award is expected in 2025, “and some of these [classified] programs that I just spoke of between now … and 2025.”

F/A-XX 6TH GENERATION AIRCRAFT - airsoc.com

Posted:Fri 12 Apr 2013 07:51:00 AM UTC, Last year, the US Navy issued a request for information (RFI)regarding its desire toreplace its fleet of F A-18E F and EA-18G aircraft in the 2030s. Boeing recently released anupdatedconcept of their ...

airsoc.com

"Last year, the US Navy issued a request for information (RFI)regarding its desire to replace its fleet of F/A-18E/F and EA-18G aircraft in the 2030s. Boeing recently released an updated concept of their 6th generation F/A-XX originally unveiled last year. Lockheed Martin unveil edits own 6th generation concept in a calender distributed to journalists last year. If the development of the first 5th generation aircraft (the F-22 Raptor) is any indication, the 6th generation fighter(s) that enters service after 2030 will look entirely different from either company's initial conceptual proposals.

"The genesis of the Raptor can be traced to a Tactical Air Command (TAC) study known as TAC-85 undertaken in the early 1970s. In 1969-70, TAC-85 began inquiring into what the USAF fighter of the next century would looklike. 'Look like' went far beyond the physical appearance of the 21st-century fighter...The initial Request For Information (RFI) for the ATF was issued to industry in June of 1981. Invited to submit bids were nine aerospace companies: Boeing, Fairchild, General Dynamics, Grumman Lockheed, LTV, McDonnellDouglas, Northrup, and North American Rockwell... The RFI only specified the mission in the vaguest terms. [The] USAF waited for the industry brainstorming to come up with more defined design and capability parameters...The Advanced Tactical Fighter Statement of Operational Need (ATFSON) in November 1984 detailed the projected deficiencies of current generation fighters. This statement resulted in Congressional funding and approval for the ATF in 1985. The REP [Request Final Proposal] for the ATF was issued in July 1986." - Lou Drendel, 2011

The following timeline shows key dates in the Raptor's design and manufacturing evolution. Dates within parenthesis give a rough approximation of what can be expected of the 6th generation development program. By no means are the estimated dates conclusive or set in stone. It is definitively known that the RFI was issued by the US Navy in 2012. It is also definitively known that the US Navy plans to field the 6th generation Super Hornet replacement sometime after 2030. Given the immediate issue of F-35 procurement, it is likely that the 6th generation replacement program will be delayed beyond 2030. Current plans project the F-35 production line will remain open until at least 2036.

Timeline of Raptor Evolution

1981 (2012) RFI issued
1985 (2016) Funding Awarded by Congress
1986 (2017) Competing Firms Finalized
1990 Evaluation Concluded (2021)
1991 Raptor Declared Winner (2022)
1994 Engineering, Manufacturing and Development (EMD) contract (2025)
1997 F-22 First Flight (2028)
2001 Lot 1 Ordered (2032)
2003 First Deliveries (2034)
2005 IOC Reached (2036)

In 1981, none of the initial RFI proposals shown in the image below resemble either the YF-22 or the YF-23 (image courtesy ofYF-23.net). Given that the USN issued the RFI in 2012, the 6th generation program is likely in the equivalent stage of development. Meaning that is is unlikely the conceptual images released by Lockheed Martin or Boeing will look like the final product or even the prototype"....

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

"Last year, the US Navy issued a request for information (RFI)regarding its desire to replace its fleet of F/A-18E/F and EA-18G aircraft in the 2030s. Boeing recently released an updated concept of their 6th generation F/A-XX originally unveiled last year. Lockheed Martin unveil edits own 6th generation concept in a calender distributed to journalists last year. If the development of the first 5th generation aircraft (the F-22 Raptor) is any indication, the 6th generation fighter(s) that enters service after 2030 will look entirely different from either company's initial conceptual proposals.

I definitely agree with this one, especially if current global situations may forcibly change the very role and mission that the future fighter is gonna be designed for (And believe me, there are just so many changes in how warfare will be conducted at this point in time). And given how long it will take before even a prototype is finalized on paper, the possibilities of what the finished product will look like, compared to its initial mission parameters, are endless.

"The genesis of the Raptor can be traced to a Tactical Air Command (TAC) study known as TAC-85 undertaken in the early 1970s. In 1969-70, TAC-85 began inquiring into what the USAF fighter of the next century would looklike. 'Look like' went far beyond the physical appearance of the 21st-century fighter...The initial Request For Information (RFI) for the ATF was issued to industry in June of 1981. Invited to submit bids were nine aerospace companies: Boeing, Fairchild, General Dynamics, Grumman Lockheed, LTV, McDonnellDouglas, Northrup, and North American Rockwell... The RFI only specified the mission in the vaguest terms. [The] USAF waited for the industry brainstorming to come up with more defined design and capability parameters...The Advanced Tactical Fighter Statement of Operational Need (ATFSON) in November 1984 detailed the projected deficiencies of current generation fighters. This statement resulted in Congressional funding and approval for the ATF in 1985. The REP [Request Final Proposal] for the ATF was issued in July 1986." - Lou Drendel, 2011

I guess I was wrong on the F-22 thread. The Raptor, or rather, the program that resulted in its creation is way older than I thought it was. Really comes to mind that if such a program that resulted in the Raptor was conceived way back in the 70's, it really took them that long to eventually finish a concrete result of their efforts in the F-22 Raptor. Now that both the USN and USAF initiated their respective NGAD programs in just the last decade (2012 for the USN, and 2014 for the USAF), the timeline will definitely extend to the 2030s and or beyond that point.

However, there was this so-called "Digital Century Series" that would aim to shorten the Research and Development timeframe, and accelerate the production of the end result fighters by reducing the typical generation timeframe between aircraft generations to at least 15 years, allowing for the current fighter generation's successors to emerge sooner than usual, and take on the rapidly-advancing technologies that will happen in the years between aircraft generations. That way, instead of a usual 30-40 years between fighter generations, which creates a huge technology gap that will have to be filled by upgrading previous generations of fighters, and thus wasting more money that could have gone to future fighter development, the Digital Century Series will enable a smooth and rapid transition between fighter generations, which allows any Air Force following it to be capable of catching up to any adversary's latest fighters, while still making the upcoming generations of fighters far more advanced in all ways than the previous and current generations of fighters.

And while the USAF may not be fully following the Digital Century Series now, as it is far too ambitious for the current state of the USAF today, the principles and the technology needed to speed up things already exists, so even if the program itself started just in the last decade, technological advancements in both research and development, as well as in factory production should theoretically shave off some time from the research development process, and at the same time, speed up the production process. I can theorize that the estimate for the NGAD's entire development cycle should at least be 10 years less than the ATF program as a whole. (Unless other problems were to arise and plague the program into significant delays, which may likely happen).

The following timeline shows key dates in the Raptor's design and manufacturing evolution. Dates within parenthesis give a rough approximation of what can be expected of the 6th generation development program. By no means are the estimated dates conclusive or set in stone. It is definitively known that the RFI was issued by the US Navy in 2012. It is also definitively known that the US Navy plans to field the 6th generation Super Hornet replacement sometime after 2030. Given the immediate issue of F-35 procurement, it is likely that the 6th generation replacement program will be delayed beyond 2030. Current plans project the F-35 production line will remain open until at least 2036.

Timeline of Raptor Evolution

1981 (2012) RFI issued
1985 (2016) Funding Awarded by Congress
1986 (2017) Competing Firms Finalized
1990 Evaluation Concluded (2021)
1991 Raptor Declared Winner (2022)
1994 Engineering, Manufacturing and Development (EMD) contract (2025)
1997 F-22 First Flight (2028)
2001 Lot 1 Ordered (2032)
2003 First Deliveries (2034)
2005 IOC Reached (2036)

As long as it does not reach beyond 2040, the timeline for the NGAD program should be within their expected timeframes, though as mentioned earlier, there may be advancements that could allow for the acceleration of the entire program as a whole, as well as ensuring that the production process for the final products are much faster than before (Thanks to Digital Design and 3D Printing, among others).

As such, we can probably still get a proper NGAD prototype before 2025, a possible first flight in 2027, and then being entered into service possibly by 2030. Regardless of how long or short the development process will be, the NGAD should hopefully come out just in time to deal with whatever threats will emerge by that point, and also be a deterrence against any other future threats.

In 1981, none of the initial RFI proposals shown in the image below resemble either the YF-22 or the YF-23 (image courtesy ofYF-23.net). Given that the USN issued the RFI in 2012, the 6th generation program is likely in the equivalent stage of development. Meaning that is is unlikely the conceptual images released by Lockheed Martin or Boeing will look like the final product or even the prototype"....

Once again, I agree with this, as it was also stated in the beginning part that the concept arts of the NGAD and F/A-XX shown to us currently, whether by the USN and USAF themselves, or by fanart, will be entirely different (And inaccurate) to when the final product is fully made. What should remain consistent, however, should be some of the essential requirements that are important for a Sixth-Generation Fighter, like stealth, advanced sensory technologies, and Loyal Wingmen Drones, among others. The mission and capability to do said mission can change as the years go by and the geopolitical situations change, but there will definitely still be some essensials that the NGAD as a whole, will retain.

 

[X-39]

I was reflecting the other day on this talk of secrecy about NGAD, and if whether most of the concepts are fanart or misleading on purpose to throw off adversaries, just like the saying goes, there is always a grain of truth in every lie , and I'll adventure to say that we may already know indirectly the appearance of the bird, BECAUSE... ...After the B-21 reveal, everyone could confirm LRS-B was nothing otherwordly as some were expecting, and indeed looked like the renders. in regards to the windows, planform and side intakes. So in this time and age one could carefully consider there may be a chance for some of the configurations to become the real deal.

I made a tier list, this is only my opinion, and thus entirely subjective, but as general rule in this thread, it seems the wonkier and more cartoony an illustration is, the less likely it is to be a genuine proposal.

Even then, the mystery surrounding the nature of the flown vehicle, purely proof of a concept technology demo? (Have Blue/Tacit Blue/X-29/X-31/Bird Of Prey/X-36/X-47A/X-2/Phantom Ray/X-59/Abrams X) OR: a mould somewhat representative of the final product?(YF-16/YF-17/YF-22/YF-23/X-32/X-35/X-47B/S-97/V-280) still lingers. IMHO, i wouldn't prefer the latter approach, where the growth possibilities are doomed/limited by the physical restrictions set in place as consequence of deriving your production aircraft from the og testbed. The F-117 is a perfect example of things done right... X-32, on the other hand...

 

[FighterJock]

X-32, on the other hand

Don't get me started on the X-32.

 

[jsport]

Episode 110 - Russian Airpower in Ukraine: Lessons for the West, | The Aerospace Advantage

Episode Summary: In Episode 110 of the Aerospace Advantage podcast, Russian Airpower in Ukraine: Lessons for the West, John “Slick” Baum chats with Dr. Justin Bronk of the Royal United Services Institute for Defense and Security Studies along with Heather “Lucky” Penney and Lt Col Michael...

mitchellinstituteaerospaceadvantage.podbean.com

 

[Hydroman]

X-32, on the other hand

Don't get me started on the X-32.

I agree, the original X-32 (Pregnant Guppy) was off the mark. But the re-designed offering, more blended, with the new horizontal tails and new inlet system, not too bad, kind of like a second coming of the A-7 Corsair II which was a fine attack jet. Boeing did demonstrate lower-cost composite fabrication and manufacturing, just in the wrong package. What is interesting, the X-32 and F-35 carry the same payload internally, a 1000 lb JDAM in the main bays with an AMRAAM on the doors. NGAD will be interesting.

 

[Whopper]

I apologize if this was covered before, but does anyone know anything about the tailless design that appears in this Boeing ad around 0:51? It's rather pudgy and probably the smallest sixth-gen aircraft concept that I've seen so far. I'm guessing that it's just a fictional design.

 

[X-39]

does anyone know anything about the tailless design that appears in this Boeing ad around 0:51? It's rather pudgy and probably the smallest sixth-gen aircraft concept that I've seen so far. I'm guessing that it's just a fictional design.

Ehh, just by eyeballing, calling this the "smallest" airframe would be a bit of an understatement, it is about the same size of Rodrigo Avella's F/A-XX, which has always seemed to me like a monster for a CVN based aircraft. but the blended tails are a genius way of getting the best of both worlds, retaining maneuverability and/or stability without sacrificing RCS. Although the nose chine shares eerie similarities with this NG concept. Maybe we've been teased with the real thing all along?

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

does anyone know anything about the tailless design that appears in this Boeing ad around 0:51? It's rather pudgy and probably the smallest sixth-gen aircraft concept that I've seen so far. I'm guessing that it's just a fictional design.

Ehh, just by eyeballing, calling this the "smallest" airframe would be a bit of an understatement, it is about the same size of Rodrigo Avella's F/A-XX, which has always seemed to me like a monster for a CVN based aircraft. but the blended tails are a genius way of getting the best of both worlds, retaining maneuverability and/or stability without sacrificing RCS. Although the nose chine shares eerie similarities with this NG concept. Maybe we've been teased with the real thing all along?

It may be the most popular design for the NGAD, but it may not the actual design, so I'd rather stay tuned until we get actual confirmation.

One thing that I know is that the NGAD would be totally different, and I think that also extends to airframe design as well, so until then, I'm just gonna wait and see what happens eventually.

 

[Bounce]

I'll eat a sock live on camera if the carrier version is fully tailless ie no vert stabs.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

I'll eat a sock live on camera if the carrier version is fully tailless ie no vert stabs.

Ohhh, you don't have to do that

Regardless of what designs the NGAD will make, it would be its internal capabilities that will provide the majority of its innovations, since the tail-less designs have been conceived in some pre-existing planned programs, like the X-44 MANTA

 

[bobbymike]

Air Force mulls remote control of drone wingmen

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. CQ Brown said future budgets will show the service is committed to new forms of uncrewed aircraft.

www.defensenews.com

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

Air Force mulls remote control of drone wingmen

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. CQ Brown said future budgets will show the service is committed to new forms of uncrewed aircraft.

www.defensenews.com

Interesting. Perhaps Manned-Unmanned Teaming (MUM-T) could be one of the greatest military technological innovations that may come out as a result of the Next Generation Air Dominance's Research and Development. What's not to say that eventually, the other service branches apart from the US Air Force will adopt their own versions of MUM-T to accompany their more vulnerable vehicles and vessels as they move around in future battles.

For the Army and Marines, they can have a number of robotic vehicles that can both do some suppressing fire against enemy infantry and light vehicles, while presenting themselves as targets for Anti-Tank weapons, thereby shielding heavier armored vehicles from the dangerous weapons used against them. In addition, they can serve various other important roles, such as logistics, transportation, reconnaissance, and other such roles. And they can either be controlled from specialized vehicles or some of the combat vehicles themselves, perhaps as attritional or expendable drones in the case of the latter.

For the Navy, they can have larger and more capable drone ships that can perform a variety of roles, like launching aerial drones, replenishment at sea, missile bombardments, etc. Maybe a sufficient number of them connected to an aircraft carrier can be the new form of the Naval Task Force, and may allow the overall task force to have fewer manned ships, retaining only the important and essential ships to be manned, and leaving the rest of the roles to be fulfilled by drones. This by extension, also allows any ship that would normally be assigned to protect carriers free to do other roles, or reinforce task groups that are much closer to enemy territory.

Whatever use the other branch will have for MUM-T, it would probably make or break the US Military as a whole in the future.

 

[La-Fuente Technologies]

A week-old news regarding MUM-T technology, from Breaking Defense:

Air Force 'committed' to 'collaborative' drones, as budgets will show: Gen. Brown - Breaking Defense

Going more than "PowerPoint deep," the services also are making "a lot more progress" on Joint All Domain Command and Control (JADC2), Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. CQ Brown said today.

breakingdefense.com

 

[seruriermarshal]

How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile
Steve Trimble February 27, 2023

The Weekly Debrief: How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile | Aviation Week Network

What is the “Voodoo II”? And why does the Voodoo II project’s special patch say “Two-0-Thunder”?

aviationweek.com

 

[seruriermarshal]

How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile
Steve Trimble February 27, 2023

The Weekly Debrief: How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile | Aviation Week Network

What is the “Voodoo II”? And why does the Voodoo II project’s special patch say “Two-0-Thunder”?

aviationweek.com

 

[FighterJock]

How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile
Steve Trimble February 27, 2023

View attachment 694546

The Weekly Debrief: How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile | Aviation Week Network

What is the “Voodoo II”? And why does the Voodoo II project’s special patch say “Two-0-Thunder”?

aviationweek.com

I like the Voodoo 2 name it is in keeping with the Phantom 2 and the Lightning 2, though it all depends on who wins the NGAD/F/A-XX program as to whether the name gets used or not.

 

[VTOLicious]

Interestingly the original Voodoo features a lambda wing, which is associated with lo-aircraft / ucav nowadays... Yeah, far fetched

 

[Sundog]

How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile
Steve Trimble February 27, 2023

The Weekly Debrief: How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile | Aviation Week Network

What is the “Voodoo II”? And why does the Voodoo II project’s special patch say “Two-0-Thunder”?

aviationweek.com

Notice the airplane held in the hand of the skeleton. In planform, it reminds me a lot of the Boeing ATF design. It looks like a medium aspect ratio delta wing (with slight sweep on the TE, as we know we wouldn't want an edge perpendicular to the velocity vector. )
with a butterfly tail and a sort of a spatula nose. Also, Steve Trimble speculated that it reads,"Two-O-Thunder," because it possesses Mach two capability. I was thinking maybe it's because it has two really powerful engines.

 

[Manuducati]

How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile
Steve Trimble February 27, 2023

The Weekly Debrief: How A Phantom Works Project Fits The Secretive NGAD Profile | Aviation Week Network

What is the “Voodoo II”? And why does the Voodoo II project’s special patch say “Two-0-Thunder”?

aviationweek.com

Notice the airplane held in the hand of the skeleton. In planform, it reminds me a lot of the Boeing ATF design. It looks like a medium aspect ratio delta wing with a butterfly tail and a sort of a spatula nose. Also, Steve Trimble speculated that it reads,"Two-O-Thunder," becaue it possesses Mach two capability. I was thinking maybe it's because it has two really powerful engines.

The red aircraft is the voodoo doll, the target so to say.
The V shaped collar and/or the flat /\/\ cape (reminiscent of another Boeing Phantom works creation: the Bird of Prey) on the other hand...