USAF/USN 6th Gen Fighters - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS News & Analysis [2008- 2025]

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Regarding NGAD being in “informal” EMD, it may be the case that the advances in digital engineering and rapid prototyping has allowed aspects of aircraft development to exceed the pace of a traditional acquisition process. Moving into the EMD process without a formal Milestone B may be a way for development to continue without being slowed down by the acquisition process.
 
bobbymike said:

Secretive Jet Fighter Program Reaches Design Phase — Sort Of

Secretive Jet Fighter Program Reaches Design Phase — Sort Of
www.nationaldefensemagazine.org www.nationaldefensemagazine.org
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"Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said the service’s next-generation jet fighter has reached its design phase, but clarified that he meant that “colloquially.” “We are working on the actual design of the aircraft … so that means we are in the engineering, manufacturing development phase,” he told reporters at the Air and Space Force Association’s annual conference in National Harbor, Maryland.
However, it has not reached what in the acquisition world is known as “Milestone B,” the engineering, manufacturing development, or EMD, phase. That requires a professional design review, which has yet to occur, he added."

"Kendall said the goal is to start the new aircraft’s production “by the end of the decade.” "


So, if that is true, then 'NGAD-AF' will take about as long to get from first flight of a full-scale demonstrator to production as the F-22 did at a time when the (first) Cold War was over and people were relaxing...

F-22
* YF-22 & YF-23 demonstrators first flights: 1990
* YF-22 down-select: 1991
* F-22 EMD start (Milestone B): 1994
* F-22A EMD prototype first flight: 1997
* F-22A LRIP start: 2001

NGAD-AF-manned:
* 'we have flown a full-scale demonstrator' announcement by Will Roper in 2020, September IIRC.
* NGAD manned-platform (initial low rate?) production start: ca. 2030 ??
.
During the past several years, I thought the program was meant to make use of the advanced (digital) design & (digital) development stuff to get faster to production of the 'manned platform' as well.
 
The fact that NGAD reached such milestones while staying contained inside a black program tells us that there is probably an order of magnitude less people involved, what could constitute a significant parameters to take into account when comparing the two.
 
TomcatViP said:
The fact that NGAD reached such milestones while staying contained inside a black program tells us that there is probably an order of magnitude less people involved, what could constitute a significant parameters to take into account when comparing the two.
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Yes, most probably.
But I would think they (the USAF) might want to have some manned NGADs available before/when China makes a real move on Taiwan.
I´m not so sure China will wait till 2030 or later, though that might now change/depend somewhat on what happens in eastern Europe, and on the economical front.
Or would the USAF (-leadership) be thinking about initial use of manned NGADs in a 'past Taiwan War'-era?
 
Additional thought/reflection:
Maybe Roper´s 'digital centuries'-approach/idea was to have NGAD ready or even fielded for such a 'Taiwan'-timeline, a design- & development-approach which has now been disregarded for the NGAD 'manned platform' (if I´m not mistaking) and which now only applies to the cheaper unmanned 'collaborative' assets. And then they´re once again going for a (very) extended development phase and for (a start of) fielding some ("several hundred million dollars costing") super-duper jets with all the desired whistles & bells, in the next decade indeed.
 
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Don't be surprised it there are 2 loyal wingmen types complementing ngad. One a shooter and one a jammer both with entirely unique airframes and powerplants. But I still distrust these 1st gen drones.
bobbymike said:
breakingdefense.com

China 'on track' for 6th-gen fighter, US Air Force needs to get there first: ACC chief - Breaking Defense

America's Chinese "frenemies" are "not having a debate over the relevance of six-gen air dominance. And I can also tell you they're on track," said Air Combat Command head Gen. Mark Kelly.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
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Good for then. At least we will 150 ngad to counter them and a number of untested air combat drones. One of which may be revealed in about 3 years.
 
I would be very surprised if there were two loyal wingman types.
 
The new term in vogue is "Collaborative Combat Aircraft", and there will be a number of platforms ranging from expendables to "attritables" to "we really need this thing back". In terms of a high end UAV with its own independent sensors, weapons, and flight performance matched to the manned component, I'm quite sure there will be a single model. The lower tiers of expendable/attritable units seem to be where there will be the most variation and iteration.

EDIT: The USN might have a completely different platform for its program however.
 
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Foo Fighter said:
I would be very surprised if there were two loyal wingman types.
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I think most complex and expensive part is mission and flight computer, avionics and communication combo. One of the UCAV developer mention that for next gen UCAV they want to have common core and then changeable elements. Also you have efforts to open computer architecture to accept external software. This make sense - you do not need different core software to flight airframe, but definitely different shape and software suite for different missions: SEAD, tanker, SOF resupply, jamming, shooting, AWACS etc.
 
Look for 2 types. One a shooter. One a jammer. Both with nothing in common. You'll see the drones before you'll see ngad.
 
Moose said:
bobbymike said:
www.defensenews.com

US Air Force eyes NGAD deliveries by 2030. Can it be done?

"The odds are against it happening" by 2030, John Venable of the Heritage Foundation said. "In the last 25 or 30 years, nothing’s come in on time.”
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
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B-21 is bucking that trend, if properly run NGAD may be able to as well.
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But isn´t B-21 designed with/ based on 'available and already mature technologies' to suppress cost & development time, while NGAD-manned is supposed to be a bigger quantum leap?
 
Dreamfighter said:
Moose said:
bobbymike said:
www.defensenews.com

US Air Force eyes NGAD deliveries by 2030. Can it be done?

"The odds are against it happening" by 2030, John Venable of the Heritage Foundation said. "In the last 25 or 30 years, nothing’s come in on time.”
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
Click to expand...
B-21 is bucking that trend, if properly run NGAD may be able to as well.
Click to expand...

But isn´t B-21 designed with/ based on 'available and already mature technologies' to suppress cost & development time, while NGAD-manned is supposed to be a bigger quantum leap?
Click to expand...
In my opinion, I think the key to getting USAF NGAD/USN F/A-XX fielded rapidly is a single prime with no teammates, example, NGC B-21, moving along well, NGC only. B-2 example, Northrop/Boeing, just OK relationship (Boeing always thought they should have been the prime), had hassles, Northrop/LTV, pretty good relationship. This is from experience. This is somewhat related to US NGAD and I apologize for stating this in this thread, UK/Japan Tempest/F-X combo, I don't know? Personally, I think both should go it alone, just my opinion.
 
Dreamfighter said:
Moose said:
bobbymike said:
www.defensenews.com

US Air Force eyes NGAD deliveries by 2030. Can it be done?

"The odds are against it happening" by 2030, John Venable of the Heritage Foundation said. "In the last 25 or 30 years, nothing’s come in on time.”
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
Click to expand...
B-21 is bucking that trend, if properly run NGAD may be able to as well.
Click to expand...

But isn´t B-21 designed with/ based on 'available and already mature technologies' to suppress cost & development time, while NGAD-manned is supposed to be a bigger quantum leap?
Click to expand...
Proper planning, proper management. You can have "affordable" programs slip to the right if they're poorly managed. I don't haave enough information on where NGAD is or what it's requirements are to make an educated guess as to whether starting deliveries by 2030 is possible, but the "nothing's come in on time" comment fails to reflect that B-21's being well managed (so far).
 
The noises coming out of the NGAD program so far are rather positive, but it is early in the cycle and we have little hard facts. I think a pre 2030 production copy is quite possible, though I wouldn't necessarily say likely.
 
breakingdefense.com

Pentagon inspector general has questions about the Air Force's sixth-gen fighter - Breaking Defense

The Pentagon's inspector general wants to look into whether the Next Generation Air Dominance program was mature enough to enter the engineering and manufacturing development phase. However, the program may have never officially entered EMD.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com
When Inspector Generals are mentioned I always think of this A Few Good Men scene.

Jessep: You ever served in an infantry unit son?
Kaffee: No Sir.
Jessep: You ever served in a forward area unit?
Kaffee: No Sir.
Jessep: You ever put your life in another mans hands, and in return, asked him to put his life in yours?
Kaffee: No Sir.
Jessep: We follow orders, we follow orders or people die, it’s that simple. Are we clear?
Kaffee: Yes, Sir.
Jessep: Are we clear!
Kaffee: Crystal.
 
Amazing that we are back to the early days of wild weasels with such a steep learning curve.
 
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Josh_TN said:
The noises coming out of the NGAD program so far are rather positive, but it is early in the cycle and we have little hard facts. I think a pre 2030 production copy is quite possible, though I wouldn't necessarily say likely.
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Hopefully it's not 16 years between the "YF-" and the "F-".
 
sferrin said:
Josh_TN said:
The noises coming out of the NGAD program so far are rather positive, but it is early in the cycle and we have little hard facts. I think a pre 2030 production copy is quite possible, though I wouldn't necessarily say likely.
Click to expand...
Hopefully it's not 16 years between the "YF-" and the "F-".
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If it is there are going to be a lot of drones in the family of systems gathering dust. 2030 will be 2030. For the drones like I said in my earlier post....
 
sferrin said:
Josh_TN said:
The noises coming out of the NGAD program so far are rather positive, but it is early in the cycle and we have little hard facts. I think a pre 2030 production copy is quite possible, though I wouldn't necessarily say likely.
Click to expand...
Hopefully it's not 16 years between the "YF-" and the "F-".
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I don't think that it is going to be 16 years sferrin, the USAF would like to be the first Air Force in the world to have a fully operational sixth generation fighter. Just as it was with the fifth generation F-22.
 
rooster said:
sferrin said:
Josh_TN said:
The noises coming out of the NGAD program so far are rather positive, but it is early in the cycle and we have little hard facts. I think a pre 2030 production copy is quite possible, though I wouldn't necessarily say likely.
Click to expand...
Hopefully it's not 16 years between the "YF-" and the "F-".
Click to expand...
If it is there are going to be a lot of drones in the family of systems gathering dust. 2030 will be 2030. For the drones like I said in my earlier post....
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What I read/hear is the unmanned collaborative things should initially be flying alongside e.g. F-35s (and I guess alongside B-21s as well).
And maybe some of them will be designed to be able to withstand gathering dust, for when there is no war (or military operation) going on...
 
That can't be a real concept. Or if it is they just resized the graphic to fit the powerpoint and to hell with proportions.
 
sferrin said:
That can't be a real concept. Or if it is they just resized the graphic to fit the powerpoint and to hell with proportions.
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The insignia seem to have perspectively correct proportions, but I didn't assume for a second that it's an actual concept.
 
If you will go up in the thread you'll find this iteration factory desktop model with a story from Boeing veteran that this one was actually one of (six?) studied and dropped variants at early F/A-XX concept definition stage. Anf If you think it's 'stubby' just look at F-32B PWSC...
 
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