Heinkel He 177V38: Luftwaffe Nuclear Bomber?

I saw the German nuclear bomber Heinkel He 177 and the Allied ,of course the B-29.But I think the Japanese haven't projected for their antomic bomber yet.

I saw the German nuclear bomber Heinkel He 177

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Never existed a He 177 nuclear bomber version.

Vietcong said:

I saw the German nuclear bomber Heinkel He 177 and the Allied ,of course the B-29.But I think the Japanese haven't projected for their antomic bomber yet.

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It's a conventional He-177 modified for transport one atomic bomb .

Vietcong and Airman

I have googled for that He-177 modified atomic bomber, and you're right it exists a reference on internet about that specimen. In fact it's identified as test machine He-177 V38. Looking to more info I've just take a look at the excellent "Heinkel He-177 Greif". J.R. Smith and Eddie J. Creek

http://www.amazon.com/Heinkel-177-Greif-Richard-Smith/dp/1903223938/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266000845&sr=1-1

You can find a reference on page 200 about He-177 V38 and there's no single word about "atomic bombs". End of the story for me. That internet sources are not credible compared with serious historians.

HE 177 V38 has been debated at this link.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=75632

Regards Bailey.

Ps If I remember correctly, the Japanese were interested in building a version of the HE 177 under licence.

Regarding the He177 V38 'atomic bomber'...

From Putnam's 'German Aircraft of the Second World War', Smith & Kay, pp.186-7 :-

"Perhaps the most interesting He177, however, was the He177 V38 which was flown to the Letov factory near Prague in 1942.
Its wings were removed and modifications were made to its bomb bay to enable it to carry the german atomic bomb,
when and if that terrifying weapon was ever completed.
In August 1944 work stopped on the He177 V38 and other aircraft to be similarly modified, all being badly damaged
in a US air raid on March 25th, 1945."

Ps If I remember correctly, the Japanese were interested in building a version of the HE 177 under licence.

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From the above source :-

"The Japanese Navy, which never possessed an efficient heavy bomber, showed considerable interest in the He177,
and the Hitachi company proposed to build the machine under license. Heinkel sent sample tools to Japan by U-Boat,
and the third He177 A-7 was prepared for a non-stop flight to Japan. Much of the aircraft's armour was replaced by
extra fuel tanks.
The flight was planned to cross the USSR at extreme altitude, however, the Japanese were not at all happy with this,
and the plan was abandoned, the aircraft remaining in Germany."

There's also a similar, more detailed reference on pages 347-8 of 'Warplanes of the Third Reich; by William Green.

pictures below from 'German Aircraft of the Second World War'.


cheers,
Robin.

I opened a new topic for that because it seems we found something interesting here. Let's go.

Text from Smith and Creek book:

He 177 A-5s built by Heinkel (HWO) Oranienburg - W.Nr. 550001 to 550006 (5 aircraft)

W.Nr. 550002 KM+TB He 177 V38: First flew on 15 December at Brandenburg piloted by Peter, transfered to E-Stelle Tarnewitz on 27 April 1944, prototype with two MG 131 Js in A2-Stand, FuG 216 and FuG 200 radar tests during May 1944, assigned to Erprobungsstelle Werneuchen, found at the end of the war at Cheb in the Czech Republic.

I'm a bit confused. How could the Germans have modified the plane to carry an atomic bomb when it's clear that they didn't have a bomb design, or even a proper understanding of the fundamental physics needed to make one?

TomS said:

I'm a bit confused. How could the Germans have modified the plane to carry an atomic bomb when it's clear that they didn't have a bomb design, or even a proper understanding of the fundamental physics needed to make one?

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That's always confused me as well, especially given the compartmentalized nature of the German military. What are the chances that a groups in Prague tasked with modifying He 177's would even *know* that there was a German atomic bomb program?

Seems more likely to me that the 177 was modified to carry a single very large "Tallboy" type bomb, and the story got muddled in translation or retelling.

I'm also confused with a reference coming from Putnam's. That's an authoritative one for me. But the debate coming from forum.axishistory has some good posts and I also rely in Smith and Creek book as very authoritative reference. Thus, the most likely theory for me should be:


He 177 V38 was a test specimen with a bigger bomb bay. There is no single reference linking that to the nuclear bomber role. Seems that someone thought "bigger bomb bay = nuclear bomb" was the only "logical" explanation...and even at Putnam it was found reasonable enough to be published. ???


I'm with those who think why a nuclear bomber if Germany has no nuclear bombs to be carried?


Please read this review from an amazon customer about a wunderwaffe book author:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Miracle-Weapons-Luftwaffe-Kriegsmarine/dp/1874622248

we know there was an active nuclear program in Germany, but there are so many assumptions and inconsistencies that you cannot take the conclusions drawn by Georg all that seriously

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I think it perfectly fits to the subject we are discusing here.

Possibly there was some discussion in the planning stages of it being used to deploy radiological agents. That could be where some of the confusion may stem from.

Please see big non nuclear german bombs samples

Vietcong said:

I saw the German nuclear bomber Heinkel He 177 and the Allied ,of course the B-29.But I think the Japanese haven't projected for their antomic bomber yet.

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we had heavy discussion about WWII German Atombomb
in short: They had a very chaotic Programs, who was bonding under SS in last years of the war
and nobody knows how far that SS-program was

so Wat with Heinkel He 177 V38 ?
possible the story is real and that SS gave the order
to convert the He 177 V38 for unspecified A-bomb.
maybe the Bomber was converter into one big conventional Bomb
or this bomber was converter for a non-stop flight to Japan.
in case of last two, the "A-bomb" had be a nice coverstory

"Please read this review from an amazon customer about a wunderwaffe book author:"

It's probably well worth, to google the name of the author "Friedrich Georg" itself !
He's the author of such wonderful titles as "Mit dem Balkenkreuz zum Mond" (With
the german cross to the moon), or "Atomziel New York" (Nuclear attack target New
York). No, there's not the slightest sense of humor in his writings, or even a small
amount of septicism! It's all true, and nothing but true (The last mentioned book
describes tests and even in-servive tests with the A-10 ) !
His books are really worth reading ...because the funnies in the local newsaper are
becoming more and more boring. Read Friedrich Georg for a good laugh !

Sorry, but I can add no more, except to say that the
'Warplanes of the Third Reich' chapter on the He177
makes no mention of atomic bomb conversions...


cheers,
Robin.

Hi
Here another story
He-177 V38 = testbed for Ju-287 bomb bay ?
http://www.unterirdisch-forum.de/forum/showthread.php?t=2310
To Justo: Nice drawings ! Thanks ! Do you have more such drawings ? (of bomb projects)
Many greetings

As far as I know, someone, Hitler or Albert Speer perhaps, asked Werner Heisenberg if it was possible to make an atomic bomb, and how large that bomb that would be. Heisenberg told or wrote down the numbers of the bombs size (and weight I guess), and it was concluded that the He 177 was large enough. IIRC the hypothetical a-bomb would be the size of a football (soccer ball); given the size of Fat Man and Little Boy, it would have been a great accomplishment. Therefore it's possible that a specialized He 177 was built despite that an a-bomb had yet to be produced. (The German war industry, Hitler, Göring etc made stupid mistakes like that before and through the war anyway.)

I personally think it was just a paper project.

I'm sorry but I don't remember the title of the book I found this; I can find similar statements on Wikipedia but I know it's not good enough. IIRC the author or authors of the book was not so sure there really was a German a-bomb project, at least one that would have meant anything.

Related material: The meeting between Bohr and Heisenberg:

http://www.nba.nbi.dk/release.html

http://www.nba.nbi.dk/papers/introduction.htm

http://www.nba.nbi.dk/papers/docs/cover.html

I think they only prove that Heisenberg was sceptical of the possibility of making an a-bomb.

Heisenberg did not know how a nuke bomb would work. Ok so if that is true does that mean that all the german scientists did not know how one would work? The germans broke up their scientists into teams to develop the bomb. All this would suggest is the team Heisenberg was on was not successful. I used to work as a Nuke Power plant operator and WW2 German nuke research is a curiosity of mine. From what I have found the German weapons research started in the early thirties. They spent more on it than the US did on the entire Manhattan projects. Most of the Nuclear Physics knowledge of the time came from Germany. U-234 which surrendered at the end of the war which was on its way to Japan. Had more weapons grade nuke material on it than the entire Manhattan project had at the time. That was just one submarine. Another went down off Norway with a similar cargo or perhaps 2x as much materials. Norway plans to raise it to keep their fishing safe of nuke materials. After the iron curtain came down it was disclosed that the Russians had one of the german movies documenting one of the three or more nukes they detonated before the end of the war. The subs also contained boxed up Me-262's and glider bombs. Most likely these two were the delivery mechanism for the nukes. They also had a patent filed in German for a nuke bomb in the early 40ies. Germany with nukes was a very real possibility at the end of the war. It was also said that one of their three nuke power plants worked and they were using it to turn U-238 into weapons grade plutonium. They only built 4 or so bombers capable of reaching the US (New York). Many times Hitler talked of knocking out the US from the war. How would that be possible with 4 bombers unless they contained nukes? US people on the Manhattan project disclosed that most of the nuke materials in the two bombs dropped on Japan came from Germany (U-234). Germany was developing delivery systems for Nukes since the late thirties.

RobPrell,

could you please add sources to your post?

Thanks,

Antonio

Hammer Birchgrove said:

IIRC the hypothetical a-bomb would be the size of a football (soccer ball);

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Wouldn't "football size" be about right for the core of an implosion type warhead (shorn of neutron reflectors, tamper, casing, etc.)? Could that have been what Heisenberg was refererring to?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

Unfortunately, a casual search will not turn up anything useful, but more detailed investigation will. In Atomversuche in Deutschland, the other scientists involved in the German atomic bomb program are named. After the war, Manfred von Ardenne received the Stalin Prize, First Class for his work on the Russian atom bomb.

The members of the team working for the SS are named, along with locations, in the above book. The uranium production of the Auer company is given, both plates and cubes.

A secret interrogation facility at Fort Hunt was recently identified: P.O. Box 1142. Apparently, during the war, German scientists were somehow acquired and sent there. One of these men was: "... a person who worked on enriching uranium." His interrogator did not understand the reason for this but dutifully filed a report.



http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=93649575

Robprell, unsourced and controversial allegations on this topic are likely to lead to the topic being locked and users banned.

If you can produce sources for any of your statements please do so, or your posts may be deleted.

Please return to discussing the plane, not the bomb.

Lauge said:

Hammer Birchgrove said:

IIRC the hypothetical a-bomb would be the size of a football (soccer ball);

Click to expand...

Wouldn't "football size" be about right for the core of an implosion type warhead (shorn of neutron reflectors, tamper, casing, etc.)? Could that have been what Heisenberg was refererring to?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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That sounds plausible.

Next time I'm in Norrköping, I'll try to remember to visit the library and check the title of the book I was referring to.

Never mind, I found it at Amazon.co.uk; it's out-of-print:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Germanys-Secret-Weapons-World-War/dp/0760308470/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272724338&sr=1-10

Has anyone read this book about the He 177?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heinkel-He177-Greif-Heinkels-Strategic/dp/1903223938/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Washington Post, June 29, 1945.



The British had located a colossal air field near Oslo, Norway. The aircraft were only described as a new type of Heinkel bomber. The German ground crew said they were prepared for a mission to bomb New York.

Hammer Birchgrove said:

Has anyone read this book about the He 177?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heinkel-He177-Greif-Heinkels-Strategic/dp/1903223938/ref=pd_sim_b_1

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I have it, but haven't had a chance to read it though.

Regards,

Greg

pometablava said:

Text from Smith and Creek book:

He 177 A-5s built by Heinkel (HWO) Oranienburg - W.Nr. 550001 to 550006 (5 aircraft)

W.Nr. 550002 KM+TB He 177 V38: First flew on 15 December at Brandenburg piloted by Peter, transfered to E-Stelle Tarnewitz on 27 April 1944, prototype with two MG 131 Js in A2-Stand, FuG 216 and FuG 200 radar tests during May 1944, assigned to Erprobungsstelle Werneuchen, found at the end of the war at Cheb in the Czech Republic.

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Not quite so pometablava since the aircraft referred to was not actually found at Werneuchen, but sans wings at Prague Rusyne's, Letov factory.

It was in fact one of three He-177 being converted for flights to Japan as He-177 A-7 which confusingly the Japanese wished to term the He-277. Not to be confused with the He-177B aka He-277 with four engine nacelles.

In correspondence on the LEMB forum I was advised the other two airframes for export to Japan were:

KM+TN Heinkel He177 A-5 W.Nr.550038 W.Nr.550038 v37 KdE source identity B0163
KM+TY Heinkel He177 A-5 W.Nr.550049 W.Nr.550049 v39 KdE source identity B0163

Incidentally a WW2 He-177 pilot Peter Brill a few years ago came forward at a reunion and mentioned he had been stationed at Werneuchen (which trained night fighter flying) to train for astro navigation by the stars in preparation for an He-177 attack on USA.

Peter Brill's revelation takes the entire argument full circle in view of the question about whether V-38 was intended as an A-bomb carrier.

Another interesting point is that commencing 7 July 1943 (according to Magic decrypts now made public) General Touransouke Kawashima requested Germany ship uranium oxide to Japan, commencing with U-boat / UIT-boote deliveries starting November 1943. (read Japan's secret War by Robert K Wilcox.)

The point I wish to make is the Japanese had a project to build an atomic bomb and it may well have been that the bomb bay for V-38 was built to Japanese specifications for a Japanese nuclear mission.

The suggestion that V-38 was a nuclear bomber arose from "Luftwaffe in World War II"
by Uwe Feist and René J. Francillon. Published 1968 by Aero Publishers in Fallbrook, Calif .

Uwe Feist himself was a prolific author on the Luftwaffe and worked closely with another author Robert Hirsch whom in 1967 wrote the first authoritative work on the He-177 in English.

Ok, for the sake of discussion, how would reaching USA work operationally? The 177 had a short range, some 1600 km, no? A ferry range of some 3000 km. Let's assume you don't fly back but ditch and the crew is picked by a sub. It's 6000 km from mainland Europe to the US east coast.

Either you refuel somewhere crazy like in Greenland. Or then refuel in the air. The latter was tested earlier already, no? You probably still need multiple refuelings and a chain of aircraft with tankers refueling far out tankers etc... The last refueling would have to happen quite close to the US, some 2000 km out perhaps.

mz said:

Ok, for the sake of discussion, how would reaching USA work operationally?

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"Don't bother me with facts, my mind is already made up !"

But as edwest mentioned the book "Atomversuche in Deutschland" by Günter Nagel:
Seems to be really an interesting book, here you can find a short note, unfortunately
in german: http://www.unterirdisch-forum.de/forum/showthread.php?t=1178
The summary of his research is, that such a high-tech development was highly unrealistic,
due to the circumstances in Germany during the closing stages of the war.

mz said:

Ok, for the sake of discussion, how would reaching USA work operationally? The 177 had a short range, some 1600 km, no? A ferry range of some 3000 km. Let's assume you don't fly back but ditch and the crew is picked by a sub. It's 6000 km from mainland Europe to the US east coast.

Either you refuel somewhere crazy like in Greenland. Or then refuel in the air. The latter was tested earlier already, no? You probably still need multiple refuelings and a chain of aircraft with tankers refueling far out tankers etc... The last refueling would have to happen quite close to the US, some 2000 km out perhaps.

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Hi mz. I suspect you're confusing the range of the early model He-177 "Algeirs Bomber" with it's later versions.

Late in the war Oslo was the logical departure airport for a New York attack. The straight range from Oslo to New York is 3,672 miles, or 5,910km.

Prior to Normandy landings Brest and Caen had very long hard runways. Brest to New York was 3342 miles / 5380km

Ju-390 pilot Hans Pancherz perfected air to air refuelling in a number of flights in early 1944. Also a Ju-290 9V+MK flew from Mount de Marsan and landed on the ice at Nordenskjölds Bugt 80.55N, 13.56W at the northern tip of Greenland on 3 July 1944. It is not to be dismissed that this location and others in Greenland were occupied and supplied in summer by aircraft and U-boats during much of 1943-44 and may have offered a forward staging air base. Vaernes Norway was the departure airbase for these resupply flights over a distance of 2,350nm.

More important as a forward staging base than Nordenskjölds Bugt was likely Mestersvig 72.14N, 23.55W where the Germans had a garrison, weather station and an ice free airstrip in summer. Today this natural airstrip in 1944, is a significant airstrip.

During 1944 there was a great deal of fighting over Mestersvig first held by Germans, then Americans and then regained in fighting by Germans again where there is now an airstrip called Mastersvig seen in this current day photo:



The flight from Mestersvig to New York was an achievable 2741 statute miles one way. Concievably an He-277, or He-177 A-7 could perhaps manage a return mission from Mestersvig to New York recovering the aircraft. It is known that an He-177 mission against New York was contemplated with aircraft intending to ditch beside U-boats for recovery.

A veteran He-177 pilot Peter Brill came forward a few years ago at a unit reunion to assert that he had trained for a New York attack.

Without the actual documents we can only speculate and this mission which would have been top secret anyway would have only been known to a handful of planners at OKL.


The first 35 He-177 A-0 aircraft, 5 built by Arado and 15 built by Heinkel plus 8 prototypes. Only 12 of these A-0 models remained in service by Feb 1944. The A-0 specification called for a 4,160 mile range with a 2,210mile bomb load. It was an equivalent of the Avro Manchester.

These early models had problems with inflight engine fires and overheating. Their DB 606 engines had a common "central" exhaust manifold, serving a total of twelve cylinders, on the two inner cylinder banks of the engines, which became excessively hot. This caused accumulation of oil and grease in the bottom of the engine cowling to catch fire. When the pilot throttled back there was a tendency for the injection pump to deliver more fuel than was required by the engine, in addition to which the injection pump connections often leaked. These early models were usually retired for training schools or re-built as later variants.


Next came 130 He-177 A-1, 42 built by Arado, 88 built by Heinkel

The A-1 model had performance very similar to the B-17 Flying Fortress. The He-177A-1, which used the lower power and slightly less fuel efficient DB606 using 10400 litres of fuel + 4000kg bombs payload for 3200km range.


Then followed 170 improved He-177 A-3 which had longer fuselages and repositioned engine nacelles, 217 built by Heinkel and 398 by Arado. The longer tail moment considerably improved performance. He-177A3 had the more powerful DB610 and could take on board 10 tons of fuel and 3 tons of bombs for a range of 3000+ miles (at max take off weight).


It's major performance upgrade came with the He-177 A-5, 71 built by Heinkel and 278 by Arado. It had a wingspan of 31.44 m. Gross weight jumped from 52,735lbs to 68,343lb allowing more fuel and range for the same payload.

Powerplant: Two 2,950 hp (2200 kW) Daimler-Benz DB 610A/B engines, each comprising of two 12-cylinder inverted Vee DB 605 engines close-coupled to one propeller.

Performance: Maximum speed 304 mph (490 km/h) at 19,685 ft (6000 m); cruising speed 258 mph (415 km/h); service ceiling 26,245 ft (8000 m).

Range: 3,417 miles (5500 km) with two wing mounted Hs 293 missiles, or SD 1400 X guided bombs.

Note: With external loads like the Fritz-X missile or the Hs-293 etc the speed and range will be degraded by drag as much as 25-30%. With a single large bomb or several bombs in a bomb bay the range will not be so degraded. Without external weapons the A-5's range is thought to be 4,200 miles or so.


Last came the He-177 A-7 with longer 36m wingspan and 3,748 hp DB 613 engines. Only five examples are thought to have flown. It is said have had a range with a typical 6,000kg/13 200 lb bomb load of 4,600 miles


Not to forget that the He-277 or He-177B as first know also offered performance similar or superior to the He-177 A-5 and at least equal to the B-29. Claimed to have a payload of 7,200kg over 3,728 miles or 4,060kg over 4,400 miles.

Jemiba said:

mz said:

Ok, for the sake of discussion, how would reaching USA work operationally?

Click to expand...

"Don't bother me with facts, my mind is already made up !" ...

The summary of his research is, that such a high-tech development was highly unrealistic,
due to the circumstances in Germany during the closing stages of the war.

Click to expand...

No such mission would have been planned simply in the closing months of WW2. No doubt such a mission would have been a planning goal since at least 1943. Bringing together aircraft the weapon intended for use and the logistics etc could well have been overtaken by events in 1944. It may be that some tried to maintain the project into 1945, but that does not mean it was never planned.

The British had perfected aerial refueling in the late 1930s. A newsreel is available on youtube that shows a demonstration. He 177s were found in France that had been fitted with Saenger ramjets on top. According to documents, the Americans were expecting an attack from a stratospheric bomber, or a U-boat, or an intercontinental missile. Fortunately, in July 1945, Life magazine carried several pages that summarized the end of the war in Europe. "By the Skin of our Teeth" was the headline. The rest of the text gives a clear view that the contest was much, much closer than later accounts would suggest. The article goes on to state that some secrets could be revealed, but others could not, yet. An illustration shows an underground assembly area with a partially assembled Dornier 335.

Atomversuche in Deutschland reproduces a document that shows the German nuclear program was in operation till January 1945, and likely much later. A quantity of Secret documents related to atomic research in Germay were returned to the Deutsches Museum a few years after the fall of the Soviet Union from the US. A select number were put on display in the museum in 2001. Heisenberg was not the main person of interest. There were two other programs, one through the HWA and another run by the SS. Much like the American Manhattan Project, elements were spread out. In Spying on the Bomb by Jeffrey T. Richelson, it is revealed that a likely candidate was the giant chemical concern, I.G. Farben. In September, 1943, Oppenheimer suggested collecting water samples from Lake Constance and the Rhine near Switzerland.

The book Nurfluegel by Reimar Horten and Peter F. Selinger, has a photograph of a pilot in a full pressure suit sitting in the cockpit of an Ho IX. That the Germans had developed a full pressure suit was confirmed in the book, Suiting up for Space by Lloyd Mallan. The manufacturer was the Draeger company.

edwest said:

He 177s were found in France that had been fitted with Saenger ramjets on top.

Click to expand...

According to documents, the Americans were expecting an attack from a stratospheric bomber, or a U-boat, or an intercontinental missile.

Click to expand...

Fortunately, in July 1945, Life magazine carried several pages that summarized the end of the war in Europe. "By the Skin of our Teeth" was the headline. The rest of the text gives a clear view that the contest was much, much closer than later accounts would suggest.

Click to expand...

Ah, isn;t journalism exciting when you can pick through the detrius of a story, choose the really scary bits and run with it?

Did you know that Iraq *almost* won the Gulf War?

There were two other programs, one through the HWA and another run by the SS. Much like the American Manhattan Project, elements were spread out.

Click to expand...

Unlike the Manhattan Project, the German bomb effort was an inefficient mishmash of *several* competing bomb efforts, each consuming rare resources, not communicating with each other and in general playing holy hell with the stereotype that Germans are efficient and know how to develop things.

The book Nurfluegel by Reimar Horten and Peter F. Selinger, has a photograph of a pilot in a full pressure suit sitting in the cockpit of an Ho IX. That the Germans had developed a full pressure suit was confirmed in the book, Suiting up for Space by Lloyd Mallan. The manufacturer was the Draeger company.

Click to expand...

Meaningless. The US *also* had full pressure suits, and far further along and better developed than the German ones. The reason? High altitude conventional aircraft, not exoatmospheric spaceplanes.

He 177s were found in France that had been fitted with Saenger ramjets on top.

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Orionblamblam perhaps I can assist Ed here?
I think he refers to photos of the Do-217K test aircraft at Istres with Lorin ramjets mounted over their fuselages. The Germans developed ramjets burning coal dust for the Lippisch P13a and P13b fighters.

http://www.luft46.com/lippisch/lip13a.html
http://www.luft46.com/lippisch/lip13b.html
http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwsuplor.html

According to documents, the Americans were expecting an attack from a stratospheric bomber, or a U-boat, or an intercontinental missile.

Click to expand...

Again in Japan's Secret War by Robert K Wilcox, Magic intercepts of signals between Tokyo and the Japanese embassy at Berlin tipped off the Americans from 7 July 1943 onwards about Japan's nuclear weapons project. If you read his memoirs Albert Speer in March 1945 also broadcast a warning via radio of an imminent attack on USA. It was hardly secret when the Nazis were actually broadcasting such threats.

In July 1944 New York Mayor La Guardia warned citizens of plans for "robot missile attacks on the US East Coast:

Fortunately, in July 1945, Life magazine carried several pages that summarized the end of the war in Europe. "By the Skin of our Teeth" was the headline. The rest of the text gives a clear view that the contest was much, much closer than later accounts would suggest.

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Ah, isn;t journalism exciting when you can pick through the detrius of a story, choose the really scary bits and run with it?[/quote]

That is in effect what the newspapers of the day were doing and Ed is merely citing the stuff which was in wide circulation at the time.

Did you know that Iraq *almost* won the Gulf War?

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I don't recall Ed saying that?

There were two other programs, one through the HWA and another run by the SS. Much like the American Manhattan Project, elements were spread out.

Click to expand...

Unlike the Manhattan Project, the German bomb effort was an inefficient mishmash of *several* competing bomb efforts, each consuming rare resources, not communicating with each other and in general playing holy hell with the stereotype that Germans are efficient and know how to develop things.

Click to expand...

It is worth taking the time to read very closely David Irvings excellent work "The Mares Nest," about Germany's nuclear weapon projects. Here you will find out for example that in early 1944 a large contract was let to the company BaMag Meguin for mass production of gaseous Uranium centrifuges which formed the basis for Iran's current uranium enrichment program. German scientists developed this technology in 1942 which they named the Isotope sluice but which is more commonly now termed the Harteck process after HWA scientist Dr Paul Harteck.

Germany ran a civil nuclear research project headed by Proff Werner Heisenberg supported by Speer. Heisenberg was genuinely ignorant of the military nuclear project and kept that way for security reasons by the Gestapo. The Seicherheitsdienst were aware of British agents penetrating Heisenberg's circle and left Heisenberg to them as a sacrificial lamb.

Max von Ardenne led the privately funded Reichsforschungsrat-Goering with Martin Bormann's patronage from April 1942 which made efforts to develop a Plutonium based weapon with a team led by Dr Fritz Houtermanns .

Then there was also the Heeres Waffen Amt (HWA) military projects headed by Kurt Diebner in association with Dr Paul Harteck from April 1942 to August 1944 when Himmler and the SS took over and they were quite literally driven underground to avoid allied bombing and became so secret that no public record exists.

Of these the HWA, later SS backed project probably had the greatest chance of success.

The book Nurfluegel by Reimar Horten and Peter F. Selinger, has a photograph of a pilot in a full pressure suit sitting in the cockpit of an Ho IX. That the Germans had developed a full pressure suit was confirmed in the book, Suiting up for Space by Lloyd Mallan. The manufacturer was the Draeger company.

Click to expand...

Meaningless. The US *also* had full pressure suits, and far further along and better developed than the German ones. The reason? High altitude conventional aircraft, not exoatmospheric spaceplanes.

Click to expand...

Not so meaningless when you take into account German documents disclosing that after 13 trial flights of a winged A4b that it was ready for production at Ebensee's "Zement" facility. Also that with the fall of east Germany Court documents came to light of a judicial enquiry into an underground rocket sled in the Jonas Valley near Ohrdruf. The enquiry which cites both concentration camp witnesses to the giant underground rocket launcher and local residents who witnessed launches of the winged V-2 rocket briefly became public knowledge until West German authorities under pressure from the US Government classified the enquiry report.

An A4b (winged V-2) in flight from Penemunde. Trials continued at Cuxhaven conducted by SS Hauptfuhrer Dr Kurt Debus, later reknowned as the German professor involved with Saturn V launches for NASA.

Kiwiguy said:

He 177s were found in France that had been fitted with Saenger ramjets on top.

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Orionblamblam perhaps I can assist Ed here?
I think he refers to photos of the Do-217K test aircraft

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A DO-217 is *not* an HE-177.

Did you know that Iraq *almost* won the Gulf War?

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I don't recall Ed saying that?

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Why is he trying to hide the truth??? [/insane looney conspiracy nutjob]

It is worth taking the time to read very closely David Irvings excellent work "The Mares Nest," about Germany's nuclear weapon projects.

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Well, maybe, but I... wait. David Irving? David "The Holocaust Was A Hoax" Irving? David "I have no credibility as a historian" Irving?

Irving's reputation as an historian was widely discredited[3] after he brought an unsuccessful libel case against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books in 1996. The court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite and racist, who "associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism,"[4] and that he had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence."[4][5]

Irving was arrested during a visit to Austria and convicted of "glorifying and identifying with the German Nazi Party", a crime in that country under the Verbotsgesetz law. He served a prison sentence there from February to December 2006.

Not so meaningless when you take into account German documents disclosing that after 13 trial flights of a winged A4b that it was ready for production at Ebensee's "Zement" facility.

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Still meaningless. The A-4B was an unmanned vehicle.

Also that with the fall of east Germany Court documents came to light of a judicial enquiry into an underground rocket sled in the Jonas Valley near Ohrdruf. The enquiry which cites both concentration camp witnesses to the giant underground rocket launcher and local residents who witnessed launches of the winged V-2 rocket briefly became public knowledge until West German authorities under pressure from the US Government classified the enquiry report.

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And I'm curious: can you accurately describe the origin of this map... and *exactly* what it means? Rest assured, I can... and it pisses me off to no end when people misuse or misconstrue it.

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Locked.

If anyone can present anything resembling actual, verifiable new information on the topic feel free to let me know and I'll reopen it. If, however, its the same old crap recycled once more, then don't bother.