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Author Topic: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion  (Read 8902 times)

Offline Orionblamblam

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Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« on: December 22, 2009, 09:50:04 am »
A *kite* powered warship?

Oy.
 ::)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 12:05:30 pm by TinWing »
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Offline Matej

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 09:56:50 am »
Fight to the death but without damaging the nature! Sweet  :D ...and effective. Fuel savings mean longer loiter distance/time in the warzone.

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2009, 11:21:58 am »
Fight to the death but without damaging the nature!

This isn't "anti-French," but the proper military response to such an "eco-friendly" silly little warship is a nuclear-tipped anti-ship missile. Not a big nuke, mind, but an itty-bitty one... big enough to blast the ship to flinders, but small enough to be horribly inefficient and dirty.

That, or develop a truly stealthy nuclear submarine that attacks its enemies by sneaking up underneath, using an ROV to silently entangle or otherwise disable the enemies primarly propulsion system, then lash onto the enemy with a good, stout cable... then release a few hundred tons of high-grade oil. Form a good slick around the enemy ship, then send up a magnesium flare. And then keep releasing petroleum, propare, gasoline, napalm, whatever. Burn it to the waterline with the nastiest, blackest burnables available.

Then send photos to Greenpeace and *dare* them to come and pester your Navy...
 ;D
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Offline Madurai

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2009, 11:57:31 am »
Before dismissing the idea entirely, I'd like to see the numbers on exactly how much fuel they're saving. The kite thing, though absurd-looking, is apparently effective enough to interest shipping lines in it--and for monetary reasons, not enviro-hairshirtism ones.

Offline dragon72

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 12:15:01 pm »
You have to remember that the kite will only be used during transit. Let's just hope the kite isn't white, it looks bad to surrender before your've reached the warzone.

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 01:39:22 pm »
A *kite* powered warship?

Oy.
 ::)

It actually isn't a bad idea. I suspect that future navies will have a fairly large percentage of hybrid sailing ships for patrol and surveillance duties. Of course, there will always be room for a few ships with a rapid long-range dash capability, but I doubt it will be the norm.

Imagine a fleet of several dozen relatively small sailing ships. Some would carry long range sensors, some anti-shipping missiles, other ASW equipment. The whole system could be networked like a S-300 or S-400 anti-aircraft battery (taking out several ships and the remaining ships would still be 100 percent functional). Some of the ships would act as efficient carries for smaller craft: UAV's, UUV's, hypercavitators, WIGs or hydrofoils. These could be deployed rapidly out to a couple hundred kilometres, further increasing targeting reach, response time and redundancy.

There is also absolutely no reason why one can't have an auxiliary powerplant on a sailing ship which is capable of raising its speed close to that of conventional warships (especially if the sails/rig can be folded. The only reason not to have an environmentally friendlier (and much cheaper to keep on station) fleet is if you need to get to another part of the world in a hurry. Most likely such a role is best suited to strategic air arms (and possibly, fast stealthy cruise missile equipped ships) - but it needn't be the main capability of a fleet.

Offline shockonlip

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 02:36:47 pm »
Fight to the death but without damaging the nature!

This isn't "anti-French," but the proper military response to such an "eco-friendly" silly little warship is a nuclear-tipped anti-ship missile. Not a big nuke, mind, but an itty-bitty one... big enough to blast the ship to flinders, but small enough to be horribly inefficient and dirty.

That, or develop a truly stealthy nuclear submarine that attacks its enemies by sneaking up underneath, using an ROV to silently entangle or otherwise disable the enemies primarly propulsion system, then lash onto the enemy with a good, stout cable... then release a few hundred tons of high-grade oil. Form a good slick around the enemy ship, then send up a magnesium flare. And then keep releasing petroleum, propare, gasoline, napalm, whatever. Burn it to the waterline with the nastiest, blackest burnables available.

Then send photos to Greenpeace and *dare* them to come and pester your Navy...
 ;D

I can see that Scott is not in the Christmas mood yet!

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 03:56:38 pm »
If this ship has an operational role in mind – as opposed to being a design study – it would for the French make a good replacement for the Floréal class of surveillance frigates for patrol in the South Pacific and Caribbean. The reduced need for fuel would be of great assistance in the Pacific and the ‘eco-friendly’ feel would benefit whole of government approaches to encouraging tourism in these regions. Like the Floréal it is not designed to go into action against anything more than pirates, terrorists and mildly armed separatist groups. Of course like any other ship it could be more heavily armed as long as it has the weight margin for it. Even with a coating of solar cells there is still deck space forward and aft for some heavier weapons.

But don’t let that get in the way of the various ‘greenies are bad’ posturing on display here. Though I should be thankful it isn’t green posturing with various drum banging, tree hugging, chanting, etc SHUDDER…
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Offline TomS

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 04:31:34 pm »
I can't find a picture at the moment, but there was a not-entirely absurd proposal in the late 1970s or early 1980s for a wind-powered ASW sloop for the Royal Navy to patrol the GIUK gap.  IIRC, it used either rotorsails or turbosails, rather than conventional cloth sails.  This had the potential upside of much increased cruising endurance and reduced acoustic signature as well as possible fuel savings.  The downsides were non-trivial, including dependence on wind direction and strength (although there was a mechanical auxiliary system) and complexity (as well as probably an absurd RCS).

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 09:19:12 pm »

I was always against tree hugging myself - too much chance of crushing arboreal insects or damaging those little colourful lichens (which are very vulnerable to particulates btw.)  :D

I can't find a picture at the moment, but there was a not-entirely absurd proposal in the late 1970s or early 1980s for a wind-powered ASW sloop for the Royal Navy to patrol the GIUK gap.  IIRC, it used either rotorsails or turbosails, rather than conventional cloth sails.  This had the potential upside of much increased cruising endurance and reduced acoustic signature as well as possible fuel savings.  The downsides were non-trivial, including dependence on wind direction and strength (although there was a mechanical auxiliary system) and complexity (as well as probably an absurd RCS).

If anyone has more information about this design I'd be very interested.

It will be very interesting to see sailing how ship designs have matured after a years of technological advancement. There are already new sailing ships in production for commercial shipping purposes (but the ones I know of are using >80 year old designs which require far too large a crew to handle the rigging).

Offline AlertOne

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2009, 02:51:48 am »
Efficiency

The only thing I can quote is about the sail and it is from The Sunday Times, Business Section, Page 9, dated 20.Dec.09, "The ship  with holes and a sail - to save fuel" by Danny Fortson.

Hull paint - reduce fuel burn by 10%
Propellers  - 5%
Air cavity - 10%
Kite sails - 300-metre long cables - 35%

Kite is by SkySails Stephen Wrage.

Air Cavity is by DK Group, project leader Jorn Winkler, test vessel did save 10% according to article.

Basically article is about fact that sea freightin up till now has bee exempt from counting towards global warming debate, plus the steep drop in price of freighting due to Credit Cruunch and fact that in next 2/3 years global fleet numbers will increase by 40% in total producing glut of new vessels on market.

Air Cavity was mentioned years ago on the New Scientist website/magazine as was SkySails.

Laters

Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 12:54:38 pm »
How about a saucer-shaped hull supported by trimarans below?
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Offline Pioneer

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2009, 12:40:10 am »
I can't find a picture at the moment, but there was a not-entirely absurd proposal in the late 1970s or early 1980s for a wind-powered ASW sloop for the Royal Navy to patrol the GIUK gap.  IIRC, it used either rotorsails or turbosails, rather than conventional cloth sails.  This had the potential upside of much increased cruising endurance and reduced acoustic signature as well as possible fuel savings.  The downsides were non-trivial, including dependence on wind direction and strength (although there was a mechanical auxiliary system) and complexity (as well as probably an absurd RCS).

Will be interested in seeing this - if you are able to find it!!

Regards
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Offline Pioneer

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2009, 12:49:24 am »
Sorry - but as an infantryman (sorry for the question - not for being an infantryman!! ;D) and not a sailor, I see merit in the Kitesail / SkySails as a potential stealth feature for carrying out ASW missions in a loitering manner (sprint and drift - without the tell tail engine/prop/cavitation start up noises!)

I have to ask though what effect the array of solar power panels would have to 'glint' and adding to a signature for an Infra Red sensor equipped missile?
I have stood next to my house roof-mounted solar panel and boy they get really hot!!!


Regards
Pioneer
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Offline TinWing

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2009, 09:52:00 am »
Sorry - but as an infantryman (sorry for the question - not for being an infantryman!! ;D) and not a sailor, I see merit in the Kitesail / SkySails as a potential stealth feature for carrying out ASW missions in a loitering manner (sprint and drift - without the tell tail engine/prop/cavitation start up noises!)

I have to ask though what effect the array of solar power panels would have to 'glint' and adding to a signature for an Infra Red sensor equipped missile?
I have stood next to my house roof-mounted solar panel and boy they get really hot!!!


Regards
Pioneer

I'm inclined to say it's time to put an end to the this "kite" tangent.  I would advise any "kite" advocates to review public domain books on the topic of sailing ships so that they can easily appreciate that a "kite" does not offer adequate sail area as a useful means of propulsion.


Offline Avimimus

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2009, 11:07:42 am »
Sorry - but as an infantryman (sorry for the question - not for being an infantryman!! ;D) and not a sailor, I see merit in the Kitesail / SkySails as a potential stealth feature for carrying out ASW missions in a loitering manner (sprint and drift - without the tell tail engine/prop/cavitation start up noises!)

I have to ask though what effect the array of solar power panels would have to 'glint' and adding to a signature for an Infra Red sensor equipped missile?
I have stood next to my house roof-mounted solar panel and boy they get really hot!!!


Regards
Pioneer

I'm inclined to say it's time to put an end to the this "kite" tangent.  I would advise any "kite" advocates to review public domain books on the topic of sailing ships so that they can easily appreciate that a "kite" does not offer adequate sail area as a useful means of propulsion.



I'd agree that the small, suspended "kite" sales are not effective as a primary means of propulsion. Even on a small ship, a kite would be almost impossible to control (unlike a conventional sailing ship). At most they represent an extremely cheap way to retrofit conventional ships on trade routes with appropriate winds (in order to gain a minor, but cost saving propulsive boost). However, I don't see a problem with the idea of using a masted sailing ship for the technique described by Pioneer.

Is there anything objectionable to discussion of sailing ships? For that matter, is it inappropriate to discuss the potential implications peak oil could have for ushering in a new generation of military designs (eg. stealth ultra-high bypass ducted fan designs in the 6th generation fighter thread?). The fact that there may be some environmental implications to an approach that may actually be considered in future technologies doesn't constitute trolling in itself and this thread is one of the few appropriate ones for discussing such designs. The use of a red font by a moderator seems, well, to be intimidating to reasonable discussion. There are a hell of a lot more hair-brained and off-topic conjectures on other parts of this forum that never receive such attention.

With respect,

-Avimimus

Offline vajt

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2009, 08:33:04 am »
The whole idea of this project is to look at options to help reduce the cost and supply line associated with maintaining a ship. This is a good start and with modularity in mind, it can be equipped for various missions. I'm sure that if true war capability is required, the area devoted to solar panels would decrease to make room for more weapons. Even a 5% reduction in fuel consumption can add to a lot of gains if distributed accross a fleet over the lifetime of the ships.

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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2010, 10:54:45 pm »

Is there anything objectionable to discussion of sailing ships? For that matter, is it inappropriate to discuss the potential implications peak oil could have for ushering in a new generation of military designs (eg. stealth ultra-high bypass ducted fan designs in the 6th generation fighter thread?). The fact that there may be some environmental implications to an approach that may actually be considered in future technologies doesn't constitute trolling in itself and this thread is one of the few appropriate ones for discussing such designs. The use of a red font by a moderator seems, well, to be intimidating to reasonable discussion. There are a hell of a lot more hair-brained and off-topic conjectures on other parts of this forum that never receive such attention.

With respect,

-Avimimus

If you want to discuss this, isn't a new topic appropriate?
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Offline Yuri

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2010, 07:40:09 am »
This reminds me of the sinking of the Greenpeace flagship Rainbow Warrior by the French intelligence service. Maybe the plan is to disguise the warship as a hippie boat to approach Greenpeace fleet and strike them by surprise.  ;D

Seriously, I think the kite thingy is a joke at best. The only purpose it serves is ecological propaganda.

Offline Madurai

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2010, 08:25:15 am »

Seriously, I think the kite thingy is a joke at best. The only purpose it serves is ecological propaganda.

...and the already-cited 10% reduction in fuel consumption.

Offline agricola64

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2010, 11:46:06 am »

Seriously, I think the kite thingy is a joke at best. The only purpose it serves is ecological propaganda.

...and the already-cited 10% reduction in fuel consumption.

http://www.skysails.info/index.php?id=472&L=2

afaik they have already over 20 installations and lot more contracts .. and the owners of freighters are well known to be hard nosed and penny pinching ..

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2010, 12:37:00 pm »
Renamed posts in topic.
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Offline prolific1

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2010, 02:38:50 pm »
Quote
This isn't "anti-French," but the proper military response to such an "eco-friendly" silly little warship is a nuclear-tipped anti-ship missile. Not a big nuke, mind, but an itty-bitty one... big enough to blast the ship to flinders, but small enough to be horribly inefficient and dirty.

That, or develop a truly stealthy nuclear submarine that attacks its enemies by sneaking up underneath, using an ROV to silently entangle or otherwise disable the enemies primarly propulsion system, then lash onto the enemy with a good, stout cable... then release a few hundred tons of high-grade oil. Form a good slick around the enemy ship, then send up a magnesium flare. And then keep releasing petroleum, propare, gasoline, napalm, whatever. Burn it to the waterline with the nastiest, blackest burnables available.

Then send photos to Greenpeace and *dare* them to come and pester your Navy...

Mr. Blamblam...dare I say you have all the trappings of an evil genius. Your wit is unmatched when responding to posts you perceive to be naive. ;D
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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2012, 08:09:32 am »
The Irish Naval Service/Department of Defence has also been playing about with the idea, with a slight twist:



http://www.irishexaminer.com/news/high-hopes-navy-airs-fuel-saving-idea-183185.html
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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2013, 06:30:25 am »
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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2013, 07:35:01 am »


The Vindskip concept from Lade AS is an interesting take on the idea of wind power for modern vessels.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 07:39:32 am by Grey Havoc »
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2013, 10:45:58 am »
Interesting indeed ! What makes me wonder is, how the underwater hull would look like. Contrary to conventional
sailing ships,obviously remarkable weights are positioned on the top of a very high construction. I would expect
severe stability problems, if the ship isn't built like an iceberg.
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Offline Kadija_Man

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2013, 07:50:59 am »
Fight to the death but without damaging the nature!

This isn't "anti-French," but the proper military response to such an "eco-friendly" silly little warship is a nuclear-tipped anti-ship missile. Not a big nuke, mind, but an itty-bitty one... big enough to blast the ship to flinders, but small enough to be horribly inefficient and dirty.

Nukes appear to be your answer to every problem.

Quote
That, or develop a truly stealthy nuclear submarine that attacks its enemies by sneaking up underneath, using an ROV to silently entangle or otherwise disable the enemies primarly propulsion system, then lash onto the enemy with a good, stout cable... then release a few hundred tons of high-grade oil. Form a good slick around the enemy ship, then send up a magnesium flare. And then keep releasing petroleum, propare, gasoline, napalm, whatever. Burn it to the waterline with the nastiest, blackest burnables available.

Then send photos to Greenpeace and *dare* them to come and pester your Navy...
 ;D

Here is an interesting point.  If a ship is powered by the wind, effectively the only "noise" that eminates from it is that of the hull moving through the water.   Such a ship would be a very effective ASW ship IMO.

Reducing fuel usage while good for the environment has a much better aspect for naval operations.  It extends the range and loiter times as has been suggested.   Utilising a kite or a sail while cruising means that a ship can carry less fuel, so making it lighter and enable less powerful engines to be used when it isn't using the wind, such as when in combat.

Another useful function for a kite might be to carry aloft radar aerials enabling the radar "horizon" to be substantially increased.  Utilising a "look down" radar it would also make spotting incoming missiles much easier, as well.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 06:05:39 pm by Kadija_Man »

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2013, 10:14:07 am »
With increasing automation reducing crews very long endurance early warning / electronic warfare / patrol ships seem quite possible. Although one would expect a mixture of propulsion techniques (and possibly smaller independent sensor platforms - sail power unmanned sensor drones anyone?)

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2018, 12:36:11 am »
Here is an interesting point.  If a ship is powered by the wind, effectively the only "noise" that eminates from it is that of the hull moving through the water.   Such a ship would be a very effective ASW ship IMO.

Yes and no.
Modern ASW requires low frequency active sonar because just listening doesn't find the super-quiet modern subs.
The ASW ship itself doesn't necessarily emit sonar pulses itself, but its helicopters or other ships & boats need to. And those LF sound waves will hit the ASW ship and be reflected, so there's the echo problem anyway.

Moreover, sails would be spotted by electro-optical periscopes from afar (just as high radar masts, but more easily so). An E/O periscope does a 360° digital image in a second or two, total exposure to radar is maybe 2...4 seconds. Afterwards the officers look at the digital imagery.

Last but not least; the warship needs a lot of electricity for operation, and that as well as onboard equipment will cause noise.  Those noises could be shut down for a couple hours, but not all the time.

Offline cluttonfred

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2018, 09:13:11 am »
I absolutely believe that a combination of sail and (possibly solar electric) motor power will be used to reduce the energy and pollution costs of shipping.  That said, I suspect that a successful concept will be designed from the ground up for that power combination, not just have sails stuck on a big ship.  Take a look at my post from a few years ago about Phil Bolger's "Sir Joseph Banks" design for a hint of what that might look like---a simple rig, easily and quickly reefed, with a minimum number of parts and designed for efficient use of *both* sail and power simultaneously, varying the proportions as conditions warrant.

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Offline Richard N

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2018, 12:55:01 am »
Clipper ships were doing in the high teens and even hit 20 mph in the late 1800s and didn't have competition until the advent of steam.  Steam didn't catch up for a long time because they were hindered by the amount of coal they had to carry that took up cargo space that a sailing ship didn't have to give up for coal.

Modern racing monohulls have done well over 20 mph there are now hydrofoils that have gone much faster to over 50 mph.  The sails don't necessarily need to be the primary propulsion source, but they can certainly be used as an assist to capture some of the wind energy that is always passing by.  Large ships have engines the size of buildings and even a couple of percent reduction in fuel consumption because the sails are working gives the ship that much more range between fuel stops.

I heard on the radio today that windpower leases off Massachusetts went for triple the price that oil leases have gone for showing a high anticipation of where the new money in energy is anticipated to come from.

Offline TsrJoe

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2018, 02:56:03 am »
I recall seeing studies by Glasgow University Naval Architecture Dept. on wind power back in the late 70's/early '80's, a few reached small boat mock up stage too (a few of those were in storage at Irvine Maritime Museum, certainly the rotor duct and SWATH., im unsure as to current disposition tho) might be worth a look through the literature?
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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2018, 12:37:48 am »
Rotor ships, could also use the rotating 'sail' to drive props.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship

Offline cluttonfred

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Re: Future Applications of Wind Power For Maritime Propulsion
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2018, 12:12:04 pm »
Diesel-electric propulsion seems like an obvious avenue to pursue for a hybrid ship propulsion system.  Perhaps multiple diesel generators providing power to two electric motors that each turn a propeller, and stowable vertical wind turbines to allow you to shut down one or more of the generators when conditions permit or fold them down during a storm.
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