Flying Flapjacks

cluttonfred

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
1,445
Reaction score
433
Website
cluttonfred.info
I am sure everyone is familiar with the 1940s V-173 and XF5U-1 projects. If not, the Vought Heritage Museum has some nice pages and pics here: http://www.voughtaircraft.com/heritage/products/html/v-173.html

I know of the similar Boeing design from the same era, the Model 390/391. Aerofiles.com has a little info and a pic on that one here (scroll down to the 390): http://aerofiles.com/_boe.html

I know of some pre-war and WWII-era design like those, but does anyone know of any similar low aspect ratio designs in the post-WWII era?

And no, I don't mean something like the Lockheed F-104, which certainly has low aspect ratio wings. I mean low-aspect ratio flying wings or something otherwise similar to the Vought and Boeing designs above.

Thanks and regards,

Matthew
 
I was reading in "Radical wings and wind tunnels" that Zimmermann first got interested with low AR circular wings when he saw the Arup S-2 (supposedly designed by a podiatrist!)
 
Thanks for the Arup, which is one of the pre-war inspirations, and the Facetmobile, which certainly does count. I had in mind something high performance, however, whether jet or prop, military or civilian.

I am not so sure how useful the XF5U-1 would have been as a fighter for the U.S. Navy, but it would have made rugged ground attack aircraft to support the Marines.
 
I have a Sport Pilot magazine article about that plane (incidentally it's one of the few artifacts recovered from old Aurora Airpark in Colorado before they closed for good, I just happened to have been there a few days before its demolition). I'll dig it out and summarize in a bit.
 
The formula has also been tested by Alain Mirouze, in France, in the late 70's and 80's.
Without much success.
The "Pulsar" performed her first flight on November 11th, 1974.
The "Pulsar 2" just some hops in 1984.
 

Attachments

  • Mirouze-Pulsar-1974-small.jpg
    Mirouze-Pulsar-1974-small.jpg
    14.4 KB · Views: 401
  • Mirouze-Pulsar2-1984-small.jpg
    Mirouze-Pulsar2-1984-small.jpg
    14.2 KB · Views: 383
Thanks, I am a big French aviation fan so I know about the Payen and Fauvel designs, some of which are very low aspect ratio flying wings or near-flying wings, but the Mirouze designs are completely new to me. Anyone have any more on the Mirouze designs? In French is fine....

I am still looking for more, though, especially something high performance or military.
 
Nice post, i had never seen the Mirouze designs. The pusher prop looks awfully close to the fuselage...was there a slot for it to go in? I can't tell from that picture.
Regarding the Flapjack, one curious bit of information that I read somewhere was that the planform of the V-173 was arrived at by drawing an ellipse and half a circle. The ellipse was the front part, and the half circle was the rear and had the same diameter as the major axis of the ellipse (see attachment).
 

Attachments

  • zimmermann planform.jpg
    zimmermann planform.jpg
    12.5 KB · Views: 238
Mole said:
Thanks for the Arup, which is one of the pre-war inspirations, and the Facetmobile, which certainly does count. I had in mind something high performance, however, whether jet or prop, military or civilian.

I am not so sure how useful the XF5U-1 would have been as a fighter for the U.S. Navy, but it would have made rugged ground attack aircraft to support the Marines.

Here is some info on how it worked...

"The positioning of the propellers was paramount to the design, and, in effect, offered the V-173 its unique low-speed characteristics. Traditionally, a wing with such a low aspect ratio will suffer from very poor performance due to the induced drag created at the wingtips, as the higher pressure air below spills around the wingtip to the lower-pressure region above, causing wingtip vortices. With a conventional aircraft, these vortices carry a lot of energy with them, and, thus create drag. The design of the V-173 – and the location of the propellers – overcame the wingtip vortex dilemma, by using the propellers themselves to actively cancel the drag-causing tip vortices. The propellers were designed to rotate in the opposite direction to the wingtip vortices, thus retaining the higher-pressure air below the wing. Since this source of drag was eliminated, the aircraft could fly with a much smaller wing area, and this small wing would offer a high degree of manoeuverability. As well, the contra-rotation of the propellers virtually eliminated the aircraft’s natural torque, making the V-173 much more agile and easier to fly"

"Although criticised as being underpowered, the V-173’s low aspect ratio wing allowed it to take-off at only 29 mph, and in calm winds required a take-off run of only 200 ft. Landings were possible in considerably less distance. As well, the aircraft could successfully maintain controlled flight at a 45 degree angle-of-attack – three times that of aircraft with conventional wings – and the aircraft was found to lose speed rapidly when entering a tight turn. This was theorized to be an advantage during a dogfight situation"

Oh, the V-173 and XF5U-1 used the same concepts.

These excerpts taken from "Clipped Wings – The History of Aborted Aircraft Projects", AeroFile Publications, Markham, 2007.
 
saturncanuck said:
"the aircraft was found to lose speed rapidly when entering a tight turn. This was theorized to be an advantage during a dogfight situation"

I guess this depends on how quickly the aircraft can accelerate out of the turn.
Might be a good defensive manoeuvre, tightly turning inside your opponent and have him overshoot you but you've then got to be able to keep up to turn on the offensive.
 
Mole said:
I am still looking for more, though, especially something high performance or military.

Several Avro-Canada's VTOL combat aircraft projects may respond to those criterias:
 

Attachments

  • AvroCanada001small.jpg
    AvroCanada001small.jpg
    16.2 KB · Views: 238
  • AvroCanada010A.jpg
    AvroCanada010A.jpg
    24.1 KB · Views: 269
  • AvroCanada003small.jpg
    AvroCanada003small.jpg
    13.5 KB · Views: 309
AeroFranz said:
Nice post, i had never seen the Mirouze designs. The pusher prop looks awfully close to the fuselage...was there a slot for it to go in? I can't tell from that picture.

No slot. In fact, Mirouze's system was trying to force the airflow over the central section of the wing extrados, a little bit as on Custer's Channelwing experimental aircraft.
 

Attachments

  • Mirouze1.jpg
    Mirouze1.jpg
    314.1 KB · Views: 312
  • Mirouze2.jpg
    Mirouze2.jpg
    174.1 KB · Views: 338
Thanks for posting the pictures, now I see what you mean. The rear of the fuselage is concave and provides enough clearance. interesting.
 
Philippe,

Thanks again for the Mirouze posts and info. Are you (or anyone else) aware of any reviews or flight tests done on either of these designs? How well did it work? I can imagine a high-bypass turbofan in the same position to really amplify the effect, if it works.

Thanks!

Cheers,

Matthew
 
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

was reminded about this by the 'flying flapjacks' thread,

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6203.msg51102.html#msg51102

here, as promised, are the arups, from 'Aeroplane Monthly' july 1979, pp.340-45, article entitled,
'Those Amazing Arups'

cheers,
Robin.
 

Attachments

  • snyder glider.jpg
    snyder glider.jpg
    199.5 KB · Views: 198
  • Arup Nos. 2 and 4.jpg
    Arup Nos. 2 and 4.jpg
    117.3 KB · Views: 983
  • Arup No.1.jpg
    Arup No.1.jpg
    38.4 KB · Views: 1,017
  • Arup No.3.jpg
    Arup No.3.jpg
    50.9 KB · Views: 1,071
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

Has anyone ever found drawings of the Arup aircraft? I've looked, but I don't recall finding good drawings of either the S-2 or S-4.
 
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

Sundog said:
Has anyone ever found drawings of the Arup aircraft? I've looked, but I don't recall finding good drawings of either the S-2 or S-4.

I find this one in an old EAA publication,

Cheers,
 

Attachments

  • Arup006.jpg
    Arup006.jpg
    230.4 KB · Views: 287
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

in an earlier post here:-

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5110.msg40631.html#msg40631

i wrote,

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1935/1935%20-%200956.html

the Hoffman monoplane, illustrated in the link above, looks very like the 'Arup' series of aircraft,

now, re-reading the 'Aeroplane Monthly' article, i find the attached paragraph. Further, the image 'Arup006.jpg' is attributed to one 'R.J.Hoffman'.
So, i think it's highly likely that the Hoffman who designed the Hoffman monoplane, is the same Hoffman who helped to design the Arups.

cheers,
Robin.
 

Attachments

  • hoffman monoplane text.jpg
    hoffman monoplane text.jpg
    64.3 KB · Views: 188
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

Indeed, Raoul Hoffman designed the Arup S1 and S2 before moving to Florida where he designed his "All Wing"
.
Ralph Grainchen was the designer of the Arup S3 and S4.

Excellent! that fills in some more of the story.

cheers,
Robin.
 
The only info I ever found on the (first) Mirouze Pulsar.
Two-seater with 90hp Continental C90 engine.
Wingspan 5,20 meter, length 4,70 meter.
If I remember well, the aircraft may have joined the RSA collection years ago, so possibly it still exists?
 
....forgot to mention it had a largely so called Geodetic construction.
 
First video is of the NACA Tank Model 133 test model (not a related design at all).

...Fine. I'll leave it to you to let the guy who posted the clip know his description was wrong.
 
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

A former U.S. Air Force test pilot, Chuck Tucker had recently tested a low aspect flying wing
model he designed named Vortex. It was a scaled down prototype of 12 ft. span and 10 ft. chord
rectangle. The tricycle landing gear had mains, wingtip mounted, and nose, beneath firewall ,
squared off wingtips and a large center mounted vertical stabilizer, rudder. Chuck's Vortex
project may have been adopted and ompleted by model club members of Morgan Hill, California
after He passed away more than a year ago. There were a few photos of Vortex posted at

http://twitt.org , month unknown.
 
While looking for something else, as always, I found another 'flying flapjack', the Hatfield 'Little Bird', and the story behind it, is well....
In 1926, at the age of 18, Milton Hatfield built his own aeroplane, from Nicholas Beazly plans. (Does anyone know what this 'plane would have looked like?) He also converted the engine from a ex-police motorcycle engine. He also bought a set of wheels and tyres. The aircraft never flew. Hatfield's father insisted that the young Hatfield get a pilot's licence first. However, since an hour's flying lesson cost two week's wages, Milt still had not soloed by 1932. He had also married in 1931.

Then Milt caught a break. Cloyd Snyder, the inventor of the yet-to-be named Arup, wished to convert his 'Snyder Glider', into a powered aircraft, eventually the Arup no.1. To do this he needed an engine, and some wheels. Young Milt had just what he needed. A deal was struck, Milt would let Snyder have his aeroplane, and Glen Doolittle, Snyder's test pilot, would teach Hatfield to fly. After two hours tuition, Milt soloed and obtained his licence.
By 1935, Hatfield was working in aviation, skywriting. The Arup organisation, in contrast was on it's knees. They sold the engineless Arup No.2 to a stunt flyer named Franks, who installed the same type of engine, a 3-cylinder Szekeley, as in Milt's plane. However, neither Franks, nor several other pilots was able to get the Arup into the air. In the end, the propeller was broken. Of course Franks asked Hatfield for the loan of HIS propeller. Milt agreed, but on condition that he flew the Arup. (He had watched the others' attempts, and worked out where they had gone wrong) With his propeller fitted. Milt climbed in, and flew the Arup without problems. Then he told Franks 'how to do it'. Soon after, Milt was also flying the Arup No.4 as well. He never forgot his time flying these aircraft.
After a long and varied career in aviation, and other industries, Milt Hatfield retired. He started building aeroplanes again. In 1985 he decided to build a microlight version of the Arup concept. Built of steel tube and wood, and powered by a 27 hp Rotax engine, the first version had 'Junkers-style' separate elevons, along with spoilers. The wing was arranged to fold up against the fuselage, to allow the 'plane to be towed behind a car. The structure was fabric covered, the engine cowling glass fibre. and the canopy was heat-shrunk Mylar. Milt named his aircraft 'Little Bird'.
Following fast taxiing tests, it became clear that the original elevons were ineffective. These were removed, and the trailing edge of the wings aft of the rear spar cut away, and hinged to act as elevons. The spoilers were deleted. On May 27th, 1987, the aircraft flew for the first time. Flight characteristics were good, two quirks of the configuration being the abilty to turn using rudder or the stick only-no need to use both- and a stable rapid sink rate at low speeds and high angle of attack.
From 'Aeroplane Monthly', September 1987.


cheers,
Robin.
 

Attachments

  • little bird 3-view.png
    little bird 3-view.png
    83.8 KB · Views: 235
  • little bird #5.png
    little bird #5.png
    369 KB · Views: 951
  • little bird #4.png
    little bird #4.png
    523.4 KB · Views: 989
  • little bird #3.png
    little bird #3.png
    340.2 KB · Views: 1,043
  • little bird #2.png
    little bird #2.png
    442.2 KB · Views: 1,121
  • little bird #1.png
    little bird #1.png
    297.3 KB · Views: 1,208
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.
 
Doing a bit more digging, it seems that Milt Hatfield built 3 Little Birds in total, each one differing from the others. #2 and #3 incorporated fibreglass in their construction, to varying degrees. All three still survive, but not in flyable condition.
See here :-
http://www.oshkosh365.org/ok365_DiscussionBoardTopic.aspx?id=1235&boardid=147&forumid=180&topicid=4813
and here :-
http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/members/littlebird-albums-little-birds.html


cheers,
Robin.
 
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

fluxflyer said:
A former U.S. Air Force test pilot, Chuck Tucker had recently tested a low aspect flying wing
model he designed named Vortex. It was a scaled down prototype of 12 ft. span and 10 ft. chord
rectangle. The tricycle landing gear had mains, wingtip mounted, and nose, beneath firewall ,
squared off wingtips and a large center mounted vertical stabilizer, rudder. Chuck's Vortex
project may have been adopted and ompleted by model club members of Morgan Hill, California
after He passed away more than a year ago. There were a few photos of Vortex posted at

http://twitt.org , month unknown.
See pages 6, 12, 15 and 16 of the pdf document in the link:
http://www.sccmas.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/2007_November.pdf
 
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

pesholito said:
fluxflyer said:
A former U.S. Air Force test pilot, Chuck Tucker had recently tested a low aspect flying wing
model he designed named Vortex. It was a scaled down prototype of 12 ft. span and 10 ft. chord
rectangle. The tricycle landing gear had mains, wingtip mounted, and nose, beneath firewall ,
squared off wingtips and a large center mounted vertical stabilizer, rudder. Chuck's Vortex
project may have been adopted and ompleted by model club members of Morgan Hill, California
after He passed away more than a year ago. There were a few photos of Vortex posted at

http://twitt.org , month unknown.
See pages 6, 12, 15 and 16 of the pdf document in the link:
http://www.sccmas.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/2007_November.pdf


More pictures of the same airplane:


http://www.sccmas.org/photogallery/thumbnails.php?album=48&page=1http://www.sccmas.org/photogallery/thumbnails.php?album=48&page=2http://www.sccmas.org/photogallery/thumbnails.php?album=48&page=3
 
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

That's a Models,great find Pesholito.
 
cluttonfred said:
I am sure everyone is familiar with the 1940s V-173 and XF5U-1 projects. If not, the Vought Heritage Museum has some nice pages and pics here: http://www.voughtaircraft.com/heritage/products/html/v-173.html

I know of the similar Boeing design from the same era, the Model 390/391. Aerofiles.com has a little info and a pic on that one here (scroll down to the 390): http://aerofiles.com/_boe.html

I know of some pre-war and WWII-era design like those, but does anyone know of any similar low aspect ratio designs in the post-WWII era?

And no, I don't mean something like the Lockheed F-104, which certainly has low aspect ratio wings. I mean low-aspect ratio flying wings or something otherwise similar to the Vought and Boeing designs above.

Thanks and regards,

Matthew
I am looking for more information on the Boeing 390, 391, 396 projects. Does anyone have any more, not posted here?
 
Hi Pesholito,please see;


http://aerofiles.com/_boe.html
 
Re: Italian all-wing aircraft

Flying toast, to go with our flying flapjacks...(just need eggs and bacon, now... ;D B) )

cheers,
Robin.
 
Hi,

here is a flying flapjack concept,created by Mr. Charles Zimmerman,maybe it
was a real design.

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala/L'Ala%201950%2004.pdf
 

Attachments

  • 1.png
    1.png
    266.9 KB · Views: 1,202
  • 2.png
    2.png
    701.5 KB · Views: 1,298
  • 3.png
    3.png
    558.8 KB · Views: 1,108
While the Cylons would have loved this one, it is not an actual design according to the caption, but rather the author's conception of a "modern flying saucer derived from the Zimmerman projects." Oddly, the author's name is Sergei Sikorsky.
 
Back
Top Bottom